Blue 67 in North Wales

[Gareth Marston]

Well presumably that stock has been procured....what do you get for £3.5 million, presumably the DVT and 67 will be "hired in".

With regards guessing, I think we're all guessing to some degree.

The only "facts" are that the 67s are being prepared in Arriva colours, and despite what North West centric punters dream, these can only be for Gerald.

No word as to the DVT yet (but we know there's plenty of those available) who knows about the Mark 3 stock.... or Arriva going to mod their Mk2s for push pull?

The painting is no guarantee, the WG rail budget announced last week is decreasing not increasing from Apr 12. So far ATW have been very good in not doing anything unless someone else pays but theirs always a first time for them to get their fingers burnt.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well presumably that stock has been procured....what do you get for £3.5 million, presumably the DVT and 67 will be "hired in".

With regards guessing, I think we're all guessing to some degree.

The only "facts" are that the 67s are being prepared in Arriva colours, and despite what North West centric punters dream, these can only be for Gerald.

No word as to the DVT yet (but we know there's plenty of those available) who knows about the Mark 3 stock.... or Arriva going to mod their Mk2s for push pull?

Until Nov 3rd presumably, its all guess work,however the £3.5 millions was for procurement of the the second Wag Express, not Gerald.
If Gerald is to be 67, then The Minister will have to sign off another £2million to run Gerald for another year in its current Premier form.

My guess is, we shall see one Wag open access via Wrexham without Premier dinning facilities, I don't see this Minister signing off dosh like his predecessor to carry fresh air in its premier dinner facility.

 

[RobShipway]

Just a question, but could class 180's be certified to run the two WAG routes at all?

 

[jones_bangor]

Just a question, but could class 180's be certified to run the two WAG routes at all?

No reason at all, but presumably costly. Would never get near 125mph running on the route, although they seem to be prone to catching fire at that speed anyway!

 

[ainsworth74]

You would also lose the premier catering service. 180s only have microwaves and there is no way you could shoehorn a proper kitchen into one of them without spending serious money.

 

[Tracky]

Who said it was Arriva livery. I see no Arriva branding....

 

[jones_bangor]

Until Nov 3rd presumably, its all guess work,however the £3.5 millions was for procurement of the the second Wag Express, not Gerald.
If Gerald is to be 67, then The Minister will have to sign off another £2million to run Gerald for another year in its current Premier form.

My guess is, we shall see one Wag open access via Wrexham without Premier dinning facilities, I don't see this Minister signing off dosh like his predecessor to carry fresh air in its premier dinner facility.

I still don't get why both WG Express services go south in the morning. TBH, the 0602 from Bangor is very early, and followed by a Virgin as far as Crewe 20 minutes or so later....the 0707 is a good candidate for LHCSisation.

I would prefer to see the LHCS fully integrated into the timetable, but then again stops at secondary stations isn't compatible with a "fast" service. This would, as I've raised before, release more stock for elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who said it was Arriva livery. I see no Arriva branding....

Deffo Arriva Blue.

 

[sprinterguy]

Who said it was Arriva livery. I see no Arriva branding....

Well unless DB Schenker have decided to go retro with a British Rail finish on a handful of their 67s, I can think of no other (passenger) customer livery that would warrant such a colour shade. That shade of blue is nowhere near the Chiltern blue, for a start.

 

[jones_bangor]

Who said it was Arriva livery. I see no Arriva branding....

I must admit it'll be interesting to see how the chaps at Canton get decals over those ribs!! Maybe they'll paint the logo on instead!??

 

[merlodlliw]

I still don't get why both WG Express services go
south but then again stops at secondary stations isn't compatible with a "fast" service. This would, as I've raised before, release more stock for elsewhere.



They both until Dec 9th, go South due to the reasons known only to the previous Minister, has for secondary station stops, as these are political trains,they were set up for political motives which in retrospect were badly planned and an expensive "how not to do it" exercise.
WAG2 175 in the Dec 2010 timetable consultation exercise was down as Holyhead,Bangor,Junction,Rhyl,Chester,Crewe,Shrewsbury.Newport,Cardiff
until the flack started by A,Ms, now it is a local all stops Chester to Shrewsbury,

anyone know where the 67s are hired in from? I presume its DB to keep it in the family

 

[TDK]

I still don't get why both WG Express services go
south but then again stops at secondary stations isn't compatible with a "fast" service. This would, as I've raised before, release more stock for elsewhere.



They both until Dec 9th, go South due to the reasons known only to the previous Minister, has for secondary station stops, as these are political trains,they were set up for political motives which in retrospect were badly planned and an expensive "how not to do it" exercise.
WAG2 175 in the Dec 2010 timetable consultation exercise was down as Holyhead,Bangor,Junction,Rhyl,Chester,Crewe,Shrewsbury.Newport,Cardiff
until the flack started by A,Ms, now it is a local all stops Chester to Shrewsbury,

anyone know where the 67s are hired in from? I presume its DB to keep it in the family

I am not certain but I believe Shenker hire them in from a Rosco, possibly Angel

 

[sprinterguy]

I am not certain but I believe Shenker hire them in from a Rosco, possibly Angel

It is indeed Angel Trains who own the 67s, which are, of course, all leased to DB Schenker.

 

[jones_bangor]

they were set up for political motives which in retrospect were badly planned and an expensive "how not to do it" exercise.

Oh come on....the "improving North-South" rail links was in the OneWales document, even if the minister forgot the South-North bit. Yes political, but how else was the Express supposed to be set up? Your arguments would have some weight were it not that all train services in Wales are subsidised.

Were it not for a political will to subsidise train services, then I suspect that away from the trunk of the ECML, WCML and GWML there'd be few, if any, services. The running costs of our railways means the bulk will never make money, whatever the Tories might like to dream in their fare pricing policies.

Personally I think it was a good way to add capacity to a "no growth" franchise (Labour incompetence there).

 

[merlodlliw]

Oh come on....the "improving North-South" rail links was in the OneWales document, even if the minister forgot the South-North bit. Yes political, but how else was the Express supposed to be set up? Your arguments would have some weight were it not that all train services in Wales are subsidised.

Were it not for a political will to subsidise train services, then I suspect that away from the trunk of the ECML, WCML and GWML there'd be few, if any, services. The running costs of our railways means the bulk will never make money, whatever the Tories might like to dream in their fare pricing policies.

Personally I think it was a good way to add capacity to a "no growth" franchise (Labour incompetence there).

Of course all franchise rail services in Wales are subsidised with money from UK Govt, but these are open access services,paid by WAG or WG, Gerald with a Premier dinning service , that carries more staff than customers in its dining car, both services were badly planned, WAG2 is a farce to be called an express,the no growth ATW is now been leaned on,and about time.
I also agree WG was sold a pup when it rushed to takeover no growth ATW.The days of Community/Parish Council thinking put in charge of £multi million projects without market research to see if the market exists are over, Rail service's in Wales should be run for all passengers, not the few elite.
The blue 67 is in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

Bob

 

[Bakers1970]

Gerald with a Premier dinning service , that carries more staff than customers in its dining car,

Bob

Is this quote based on fact or misguided assumptions? As whenever I have been onboard there are far more than 3 ( staff members) using this facility, and not staff may I add..

 

[TDK]

I still don't get why both WG Express services go south in the morning. .

Maybe they both arrive in Cardiff just in time for the WAG memebers to get to their desks and meetings, this is just a wild guess of course.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is this quote based on fact or misguided assumptions? As whenever I have been onboard there are far more than 3 ( staff members) using this facility, and not staff may I add..

No based on fact as others on RF Forums have confirmed

 

[Gareth Marston]

Maybe they both arrive in Cardiff just in time for the WAG memebers to get to their desks and meetings, this is just a wild guess of course.

No the timings are in fact no use to anyone in Govt. Ministers have meetings in the morning before WAG 1 arrives, AM's tend to be in situ in Cardiff Monday through to Thursday. There's a culture of having meetings early as most civil servants arrive at work early (before 0800) in Cardiff so as to get car parking so like meetings to start around 0900/0930 latest even if people have to get from other parts of Wales have to be there.

You see more civil servants on the Holyhead - Milford Haven that comes through Wrexham at 0635.

 

[merlodlliw]

No the timings are in fact no use to anyone in Govt. Ministers have meetings in the morning before WAG 1 arrives, AM's tend to be in situ in Cardiff Monday through to Thursday. There's a culture of having meetings early as most civil servants arrive at work early (before 0800) in Cardiff so as to get car parking so like meetings to start around 0900/0930 latest even if people have to get from other parts of Wales have to be there.

You see more civil servants on the Holyhead - Milford Haven that comes through Wrexham at 0635.

A bit of a change under the new Govt then, if Civil Servants are in fact using the 04.30ish a.m. ex Holyhead, so more reason for killing off Gerald as a Premier Breakfast diner, mind you there is a 0530 Wrexham to Cardiff, so Civil Servants could catch the earlier one, to start at 0900.

I recall attending meetings in Cardiff(none Wag), & suggested the meetings start at 1000(prior to the 0530running) so I could get there by train , or pay my overnight, they started at 1000. So no Hunto meetings without the Gogs.

Thanks for the explanation Gareth, you do have good contacts.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

A bit of a change under the new Govt then, if Civil Servants are in fact using the 04.30ish a.m. ex Holyhead, so more reason for killing off Gerald as a Premier Breakfast diner, mind you there is a 0530 Wrexham to Cardiff, so Civil Servants could catch the earlier one, to start at 0900.

I recall attending meetings in Cardiff(none Wag), & suggested the meetings start at 1000(prior to the 0530running) so I could get there by train , or pay my overnight, they started at 1000. So no Hunto meetings without the Gogs.

Thanks for the explanation Gareth, you do have good contacts.

Bob

My own AM came back from Cardiff on the Thursday lunchtime departure from Cardiff a few weeks back the 1320 to Holyhead. 3 hrs ahead of Gerald.

 

[jones_bangor]

My own AM came back from Cardiff on the Thursday lunchtime departure from Cardiff a few weeks back the 1320 to Holyhead. 3 hrs ahead of Gerald.

Well I'm confident this service was not set up a service for AMs, whatever some posters infer.

I think its about equivalance....

If there's a an express heading from North Wales to London in the morning, why should there not be one to Cardiff.

It's just a shame there isn't one North from Cardiff.

 

[TDK]

Well I'm confident this service was not set up a service for AMs, whatever some posters infer.

I think its about equivalance....

If there's a an express heading from North Wales to London in the morning, why should there not be one to Cardiff.

It's just a shame there isn't one North from Cardiff.

It was only after the AM's had a free ride on the WSMR pre opening train did they want a premier service to transport themselves to Cardiff, If I remember correctly they approached WSMR initially to carry out the task but it could not be done logistically with the train crew, of course they cannot choose their own paths as the paths they wanted were not and stil aren't there for them. It was ATW's idea as far as I know to go via Crewe telling the WAG there were no paths via Wrexham when in fact there were 2 that could have been used, of course going via Crewe is a much cheaper option and quicker and also better with the fares or course. I think your confidence may be shadowed, I am confident that the original idea was to transport AM's to Cardiff. If you have an idea why the WAG has spent all this money on the service when they could have spent the money elsewhere to better the service alr4eady in place please post your suggestions. That money could have been spent on the up keep and renovation of the current stock to give the Welsh passengers a more comfortable journey!!!!!

 

[jones_bangor]

It was only after the AM's had a free ride on the WSMR pre opening train did they want a premier service to transport themselves to Cardiff, If I remember correctly they approached WSMR initially to carry out the task but it could not be done logistically with the train crew, of course they cannot choose their own paths as the paths they wanted were not and stil aren't there for them. It was ATW's idea as far as I know to go via Crewe telling the WAG there were no paths via Wrexham when in fact there were 2 that could have been used, of course going via Crewe is a much cheaper option and quicker and also better with the fares or course. I think your confidence may be shadowed, I am confident that the original idea was to transport AM's to Cardiff. If you have an idea why the WAG has spent all this money on the service when they could have spent the money elsewhere to better the service alr4eady in place please post your suggestions. That money could have been spent on the up keep and renovation of the current stock to give the Welsh passengers a more comfortable journey!!!!!

I should have said not just AMs - there's probably only about a dozen from the whole of North Wales?

I agree a lot of the stock (particularly the 158s) was knackered and dog-eared - I suppose that situation is slowly improving.

I've already said that I'd prefer LHCS fully integrated into the North-South service.

 

[merlodlliw]

Until November 3rd (my guess Geralds future after Dec 9th will announced on that date at the WAG reception), I will continue with my view, which is the same as TDK,I have listened to the previous Minister who in his press statements & interviews after his experience on the W/S service, wanted similar for himself/A.Ms/Civil servants & allegedly business from Holyhead to the W/S intoductionary service , but instead took it one step further , with the Premier Service, many on these forums confirm what I have seen, very few use the Premier Service diner,certainly not business people. Gerald Wag1 transporting real people, in a better standard of accommodation , is all that is required in my opinion.


From the archives, pre Gerald
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmwelaf/58/58.pdf

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well I'm confident this service was not set up a service for AMs, whatever some posters infer.

I think its about equivalance....

If there's a an express heading from North Wales to London in the morning, why should there not be one to Cardiff.

It's just a shame there isn't one North from Cardiff.

He got an unrefurbished 158 whose engine fans failed at Abergavenny and was 20 late into Shrewsbury missing his connection to Newtown. He was last seen heading for the customer assistance people on 4/7 at Shrewsbury trying to find someway of getting to an appointment that waiting nearly 2 hrs for the next Aber train would not do.

I wonder if hes traveled by train since?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He being my AM in previous post!

Used 1434 ex Holyhead last Friday that was heaving beyond with folk heading for Cardiff for weekend. Being a regular traveler down the Marches I think the North/South Wales market is very peaky. 10 trains a day make little sense esp on a weekday as most of them are in effect "relief" trains between Cdf and Shrewsbury. The problem is the Manchester to Cdf services are that busy that making everyone from North Wales change at Crewe or Shrewsbury onto them would not be fair on them or the other users.

 

[merlodlliw]

He got an unrefurbished 158 whose engine fans failed at Abergavenny and was 20 late into Shrewsbury missing his connection to Newtown. He was last seen heading for the customer assistance people on 4/7 at Shrewsbury trying to find someway of getting to an appointment that waiting nearly 2 hrs for the next Aber train would not do.

I wonder if hes traveled by train since?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He being my AM in previous post!

Used 1434 ex Holyhead last Friday that was heaving beyond with folk heading for Cardiff for weekend. Being a regular traveler down the Marches I think the North/South Wales market is very peaky. 10 trains a day make little sense esp on a weekday as most of them are in effect "relief" trains between Cdf and Shrewsbury. The problem is the Manchester to Cdf services are that busy that making everyone from North Wales change at Crewe or Shrewsbury onto them would not be fair on them or the other users.[/QUOTE
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Well put Gareth has you are a seasoned daily rail traveller.As for the A.M you are probably correct,& it wont be by Bws/Bus, like a few more it will be by car from Shrewsbury.mores the pity.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

He got an unrefurbished 158 whose engine fans failed at Abergavenny and was 20 late into Shrewsbury missing his connection to Newtown. He was last seen heading for the customer assistance people on 4/7 at Shrewsbury trying to find someway of getting to an appointment that waiting nearly 2 hrs for the next Aber train would not do.

I wonder if hes traveled by train since?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He being my AM in previous post!

Used 1434 ex Holyhead last Friday that was heaving beyond with folk heading for Cardiff for weekend. Being a regular traveler down the Marches I think the North/South Wales market is very peaky. 10 trains a day make little sense esp on a weekday as most of them are in effect "relief" trains between Cdf and Shrewsbury. The problem is the Manchester to Cdf services are that busy that making everyone from North Wales change at Crewe or Shrewsbury onto them would not be fair on them or the other users.[/QUOTE
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Well put Gareth has you are a seasoned daily rail traveller.As for the A.M you are probably correct,& it wont be by Bws/Bus, like a few more it will be by car from Shrewsbury.mores the pity.

Bob

Well Bob its not long to the 3rd November when some hard facts or lack of them will confirm/deny everything.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well Bob its not long to the 3rd November when some hard facts or lack of them will confirm/deny everything.

Yes 13 days to go(hell said that on a Friday) it will be at 1300 hours on the 3rd that the announcements will be made, perhaps the surplus WAG buses used on the 12 minute shuttle between Wrexham & Chester Station will be transferred to Machynlleth after 2016, who knows.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes 13 days to go(hell said that on a Friday) it will be at 1300 hours on the 3rd that the announcements will be made, perhaps the surplus WAG buses used on the 12 minute shuttle between Wrexham & Chester Station will be transferred to Machynlleth after 2016, who knows.

Bob

AS there not express and go via Chester Business Park,Pulford, Lavister, Rosset, Gresford and Wrexham suburbs I have no problem with the No 1.

 

[merlodlliw]

AS there not express and go via Chester Business Park,Pulford, Lavister, Rosset, Gresford and Wrexham suburbs I have no problem with the No 1.

The Number one bus service has some good stock,met a friend off the 1342(ex Ru) Holyhead to Birmingham Train yesterday at Ruabon due to Wrexham Town centre roadworks at the Sainsburys roundabout, this is a knock on from Morrisons arriving in Town with its new enormous superstore on Ruthin Rd,anyhow Wrexham is gridlocked worse than ever now,so suggested Ruabon, the 158 was two coach, arrived standing room only & 14 late, I also noted the down 1354 to Holyhead, a 3 coach 175 was also standing room only.

Bob