Blue 67 in North Wales

[merlodlliw]

pics in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

with ATW staff comment on WAG Express, not to optimistic,could the 67s be used on Llandudno Manchester or Manchester Cardiff.


Bob

 

[TDK]

pics in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

with ATW staff comment on WAG Express, not to optimistic,could the 67s be used on Llandudno Manchester or Manchester Cardiff.


Bob

Quote from your link "An rumour circulating among staff is that 'premier service' is ending, and and also that the Welsh Government don't want loco-hauled trains on their sponsored fast Holyhead-Cardiffs, they want 175s instead. It's reported that there's an image problem with a train which the tabloid readers think is run solely for Assembly Members, being 'better than the rest.' Other more cynical people might say it's a way of getting at Ieuan Jones now that Plaid Cymru have lost influence. Apparently someone at ATW has suggested that the loco-hauled rakes could be used on the Llandudno - Manchester service, which is an appealing idea - alternatively, an Manchester - Cardiff train with a restaurant car would surely be welcomed by many. As usual, it's 'wait and see.'



Maybe someone on the WAG has realised that the WAG express is just a waste of taxpayers money and have decided to pull the plug. ATW may run the stock but then again DB may give it to Chiltern and the blue is intended as Chiltern Blue! If ATW run the stock it will probably only be until the money funding from WAG runs out unless DB themselves fund it but after the fall of WSMR DB may not want to fund any extras!!!!! Time will tell, if ATW are not training drivers now there is no way the service will be ready to run. Many drivers at Crewe already sign 67's and a couple at HHD do but not the DVT's or the Mk3 stock.

 

[merlodlliw]

Maybe someone on the WAG has realised that the WAG express is just a waste of taxpayers money and have decided to pull the plug. ATW may run the stock but then again DB may give it to Chiltern and the blue is intended as Chiltern Blue! If ATW run the stock it will probably only be until the money funding from WAG runs out unless DB themselves fund it but after the fall of WSMR DB may not want to fund any extras!!!!! Time will tell, if ATW are not training drivers now there is no way the service will be ready to run. Many drivers at Crewe already sign 67's and a couple at HHD do but not the DVT's or the Mk3 stock.[/QUOTE] end TDK

Chiltern Blue, now that's a thought, Has you say TDK with yourself being a Senior Driver of 67/DVT stock, if training is not ongoing now,the stock will not be ready, one has to ask what will happen to the £3.5 millions already given to ATW for running the 67s from December.
I think the ATW WAG Express staff are correct in their thinking, Gerald will cease at the end of his contract on 9th December, it seems to me the National transport plan review will be made almost on the same day that the official timetable Dec11 to Dec12 will be released, this has to go to press in early November.

Bob

 

[Aictos]

If the WAG Express was to use alternative rolling stock from tomorrow ie 175s or 180s, what services could the existing loco hauled stock used on the WAG Express be used on?

 

[merlodlliw]

If the WAG Express was to use alternative rolling stock from tomorrow ie 175s or 180s, what services could the existing loco hauled stock used on the WAG Express be used on?

As stated, it goes to Chiltern for the return of £3.5 millions from ATW, runs as the sole loco hauled service via Wrexham, that's what the £3.5millions was for,
used on Cardiff Manchester, but what about the catering staff based in Holyhead.

Some are aware that the 175 brought in as a short term measure for WAG2
67/DVT, was taken off a franchise run(0805 Holyhead /Cardiff) & ATW replaced it with a 150. The fact that ATW was paid £625 thousand to borrow the 175 stock from its franchise fleet,then run it open access raised serious questions within the ORR & DFT, when complaints were lodged by passengers unable to board the 175 at intermediate stations & having the 150 imposed on them.

Bob

 

[jopsuk]

I suspect ajax103 was refeering to the 57-hauled train. Doubt Chiltern have any interest in mrk 2s (I realise they don't form the whole train) or 57s.

 

[anthony263]

I to think it would be better to use the class 67 , & dvt on the Llandudno/south wales - Manchester services.

 

[Aictos]

I suspect ajax103 was refeering to the 57-hauled train. Doubt Chiltern have any interest in mrk 2s (I realise they don't form the whole train) or 57s.

I was indeed referring to the Class 57 hauled stock.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I to think it would be better to use the class 67 , & dvt on the Llandudno/south wales - Manchester services.

I think it would personally be better if they didn't have them full stop. What was wrong with the 57s? Nothing at all and Arriva Trains Fails are making a huge scene about nothing

 

[Tracky]

What was wrong with the 57s?

They are sub leased from Virgin and going back...

 

[merlodlliw]

Lease ends December 9th, unless renewed, which appears doubtful, I understand 57s are far more thirsty than 67s & 57s are poor at starting, that's why Gerald is left idling all night at Holyhead & six hours at Cardiff,waste of fuel.
Both W/S 67s at Wrexham were always shut down at night, when ever I passed.

 

[Bakers1970]

Lease ends December 9th, unless renewed, which appears doubtful, I understand 57s are far more thirsty than 67s & 57s are poor at starting, that's why Gerald is left idling all night at Holyhead & six hours at Cardiff,waste of fuel.
Both W/S 67s at Wrexham were always shut down at night, when ever I passed.

Sorry but must correct your post there:

Reason the 57's are left running is predominantly down to the lack of 'shore supply' facilities at both Canton and Holyhead. Without power the staff cannot carry out their buffet car prep at Canton..as well as the maintenance required.The 57 is shut-down at Holyhead when in sidings .

 

[4SRKT]

Sorry but must correct your post there:

Reason the 57's are left running is predominantly down to the lack of 'shore supply' facilities at both Canton and Holyhead. Without power the staff cannot carry out their buffet car prep at Canton..as well as the maintenance required.The 57 is shut-down at Holyhead when in sidings .

I've been at Holyhead 3 times this year in the middle of the night either catching the 02:30 boat or getting off the 00:30 arrival and waiting for the first train out. Every time the 57 has been running the whole time I've been there.

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry but must correct your post there:

Reason the 57's are left running is predominantly down to the lack of 'shore supply' facilities at both Canton and Holyhead. Without power the staff cannot carry out their buffet car prep at Canton..as well as the maintenance required.The 57 is shut-down at Holyhead when in sidings .

The 57 at Holyhead is left running all night,ATW drivers told me this & I have seen it idling in the early hours.
As a lay person, to be told there are no shore supplies at ATWs biggest dept at Canton is beyond belief.
So it appears the 57 from say 0000 Monday is never shut down to 2359 Friday,a very expensive buffet car prep & waste of fuel in my opinion.

Bob

 

[4SRKT]

Why can't the 'snatcher just be turned on when the buffet car staff come on duty?

 

[merlodlliw]

Why can't the 'snatcher just be turned on when the buffet car staff come on duty?

Good point, but I understand they are difficult to start up, & disliked by many ATW drivers, hence never switched off.One also wonders how much left over food is thrown away after an average Premier sitting of just three,presume the food is thrown away or recycled ,

Bob

 

[4SRKT]

Good point, but I understand they are difficult to start up, & disliked by many ATW drivers, hence never switched off.One also wonders how much left over food is thrown away after an average Premier sitting of just three,presume the food is thrown away or recycled ,

Bob

Difficult to start maybe, but presumably not impossible. I doubt the WAG would like it to get out that the 57 is left running continually for over 112 hours each week!

I suppose the driver would have to come in a bit earlier to switch the thing on as well to allow the buffet prep, but the answer to this would surely be not opening the buffet until Bangor or the Junction.

Maybe the staff just have a big chow down at the end of the shift. I would.

 

[jones_bangor]

I suppose the driver would have to come in a bit earlier to switch the thing on as well to allow the buffet prep, but the answer to this would surely be not opening the buffet until Bangor or the Junction.

The buffet does not open until Bangor, as the buffet staff hop on / off there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

pics in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

with ATW staff comment on WAG Express, not to optimistic,could the 67s be used on Llandudno Manchester or Manchester Cardiff.

All based on tittle-tattle.

My answer to your question: no.

 

[The Planner]

Rumours circulating of March 2012 for Gezza going to 67s, can't back them up so don't shoot the messenger....

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've been at Holyhead 3 times this year in the middle of the night either catching the 02:30 boat or getting off the 00:30 arrival and waiting for the first train out. Every time the 57 has been running the whole time I've been there.

And I've been at Holyhead on Pendolino day (one turned up while I was there anyway) and the 57 on the front of the Pendo was very noisy and the ATW one in the sidings was scilent. It is left on over night but not over weekends maybe?

 

[jones_bangor]

Rumours circulating of March 2012 for Gezza going to 67s, can't back them up so don't shoot the messenger....

Sounds realistic - December is only 6 weeks away so training times would be a nightmare.

 

[TDK]

Sounds realistic - December is only 6 weeks away so training times would be a nightmare.

If ATW have not been instructed yet to train their staff on DVT's & Mk3 stock they will not have enought staff to run the service with both Guards and drivers. I do not think they can actually do the training as they do not have the stock available and won't pay DB shenker to hire their company train as WSMR did as this will cost rakes of money. If the WAG express is scuppered I bet Chiltern would find use for the derelict stock including the Blue 67's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the WAG Express was to use alternative rolling stock from tomorrow ie 175s or 180s, what services could the existing loco hauled stock used on the WAG Express be used on?

The remake of WSMR maybe? Joking apart, as posted above Chiltern would most likeley accept the stock with open arms.

 

[jones_bangor]

If ATW have not been instructed yet to train their staff on DVT's & Mk3 stock they will not have enought staff to run the service with both Guards and drivers. I do not think they can actually do the training as they do not have the stock available and won't pay DB shenker to hire their company train as WSMR did as this will cost rakes of money. If the WAG express is scuppered I bet Chiltern would find use for the derelict stock including the Blue 67's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if March is the objective....

What are the logistical issues around top and tailing a rake of Mk2's and a 3 with a reverse at Chester?

Does the driver just shut down the eastbound 67, walk to the other end and start up? Something along the lines of FGW's Chester - Taunton service........

 

[4SRKT]

And I've been at Holyhead on Pendolino day (one turned up while I was there anyway) and the 57 on the front of the Pendo was very noisy and the ATW one in the sidings was scilent. It is left on over night but not over weekends maybe?

Makes sense. It's bad enough leaving it on from Monday morning through till Friday night without leaving it on all weekend as well!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If ATW have not been instructed yet to train their staff on DVT's & Mk3 stock they will not have enought staff to run the service with both Guards and drivers. I do not think they can actually do the training as they do not have the stock available and won't pay DB shenker to hire their company train as WSMR did as this will cost rakes of money. If the WAG express is scuppered I bet Chiltern would find use for the derelict stock including the Blue 67's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if March is the objective....

What are the logistical issues around top and tailing a rake of Mk2's and a 3 with a reverse at Chester?

None whatsoever AFAIK. ATW need 67s and DVTs, not mk III TSOs to do the push-pull thing at Chester.

I can't really see what all the fuss is about. There's plenty of room to do a run-round at Chester with a non-push-pull loco and such things used to be commonplace (rather than a single daily occurence networkwide as would be the case with this). Surely some shunters from the ATW depot at Chester could be trained to uncouple/couple a 'snatcher for the run round and remove the need for DVTs. Even if a 'snatcher wasn't used a skip could be used conventionally rather than push-pull to save the need for a DVT.

 

[jones_bangor]

If ATW have not been instructed yet to train their staff on DVT's & Mk3 stock they will not have enought staff to run the service with both Guards and drivers. I do not think they can actually do the training as they do not have the stock available and won't pay DB shenker to hire their company train as WSMR did as this will cost rakes of money. If the WAG express is scuppered I bet Chiltern would find use for the derelict stock including the Blue 67's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if March is the objective....

What are the logistical issues around top and tailing a rake of Mk2's and a 3 with a reverse at Chester?

Does the driver just shut down the eastbound 67, walk to the other end and start up? Something along the lines of FGW's Cardiff - Taunton service.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, out of interest, does a mixed rake of 3 x mk2's, 1 x mk3 a 67 and DVT require one of the Mk2s to be a brake coach?

 

[TDK]

Well if March is the objective....

What are the logistical issues around top and tailing a rake of Mk2's and a 3 with a reverse at Chester?

Does the driver just shut down the eastbound 67, walk to the other end and start up? Something along the lines of FGW's Cardiff - Taunton service.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, out of interest, does a mixed rake of 3 x mk2's, 1 x mk3 a 67 and DVT require one of the Mk2s to be a brake coach?

When topping and tailing 67's the driver will need to shut the loco down, switch out the batteries, isolate the parking brake and add a portable tail lamp. Time usually 5 minutes or so, but, ATW do not want to pay double the track access as 67's are RA8 and very expensive.

Technically speaking you do need a brake coach however I cannot see why ATW can't get a special dispensation. ATW have been paid by WAG to produce 67/Mk3/DVT, the turn round option at Chester will not work due to timings. You need to carry out a brake continuity test when shutting a loco down, isolate the rear loco, fire up the front loco, overcharge the set and then hope all works.

 

[RobShipway]

According to the latest Rail Magazine that is from 19th October which I have had today the blue Class 67's are due to start in December this year??

 

[jones_bangor]

According to the latest Rail Magazine that is from 19th October which I have had today the blue Class 67's are due to start in December this year??

I think it'll be later than that. It's going to be interesting if both the WG Express services are due to reverse at Wrexham post December, and whether the timetable is timed for 67 + DVT running, even if the service is actually a 175 /158.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think it'll be later than that. It's going to be interesting if both the WG Express services are due to reverse at Wrexham post December, and whether the timetable is timed for 67 + DVT running, even if the service is actually a 175 /158.

Both is optimistic, Ill take on board what Planner says,March 2012 for the Wrexham WAG being a 67. With next year being a year long timetable, the addendum will be coming out of ATWs ears.

Anyhow as a few of you know, on November 3rd, there is a reception in Cardiff Bay for rail partnerships in Wales, I have no doubt statements will be made by the Minister at this reception, which will no doubt coincide with the launch of the strategic review of Rail in Wales & where our money will be spent.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to the latest Rail Magazine that is from 19th October which I have had today the blue Class 67's are due to start in December this year??

That was the intention last March when Ieuan Jones the then Minister gifted ATW £3.5million to obtain the stock, the 175 was just a fill in to December.
All will become clear in November. Rail Mag are just guessing.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

That was the intention last March when Ieuan Jones the then Minister gifted ATW £3.5million to obtain the stock, the 175 was just a fill in to December.
All will become clear in November. Rail Mag are just guessing.

Well presumably that stock has been procured....what do you get for £3.5 million, presumably the DVT and 67 will be "hired in".

With regards guessing, I think we're all guessing to some degree.

The only "facts" are that the 67s are being prepared in Arriva colours, and despite what North West centric punters dream, these can only be for Gerald.

No word as to the DVT yet (but we know there's plenty of those available) who knows about the Mark 3 stock.... or Arriva going to mod their Mk2s for push pull?