Bletchley Upper (BLU)

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know why platforms 7 and 8 at Bletchley are in the system as a separate station rather than as part of the existing one? I've not seen this done before, and it isn't the case at stations like Tamworth and Lichfield which have upper and lower parts.

Is it so additional interchange time can be added to these two platforms (as it's a longer walk to them) without messing up the standard 5 minutes at the rest of it?

If that is the case, how come Earlestown isn't in as two stations as that has a fairly long walk between the two parts of the station?

 

[150219]

This http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/crs/crs2.shtm broadly covers it.

Some stations running over two separate lines have a different CRS code for each line. Normally only one works for national rail enquiries.

The reason for most of these stations having two codes was for the old Disabled Passenger Reporting System (DPRS), which allowed staff assisting disabled passengers to know to which part of the station to direct their attention. DPRS no longer exists.

IIRC there was a problem with the original code allocated, but that might be incidental.

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone know why platforms 7 and 8 at Bletchley are in the system as a separate station rather than as part of the existing one?

De facto one station though surely?

 

[Horizon22]

Does anyone know why platforms 7 and 8 at Bletchley are in the system as a separate station rather than as part of the existing one? I've not seen this done before, and it isn't the case at stations like Tamworth and Lichfield which have upper and lower parts.

Is it so additional interchange time can be added to these two platforms (as it's a longer walk to them) without messing up the standard 5 minutes at the rest of it?

If that is the case, how come Earlestown isn't in as two stations as that has a fairly long walk between the two parts of the station?

My initial question will be which “system”? Because there are multiple stations that technically have differentials but for front facing systems are treated as the same.

For instance Paddington (EL) and Liverpool Street (EL) are treated as the same station as the NR equivalents for journey planning purposes (PAD / LST), but in many others are not (PDX&PAD, LSX&LST)

 

[Bletchleyite]

My initial question will be which “system”? Because there are multiple stations that technically have differentials but for front facing systems are treated as the same.

Realtime Trains is where I've seen it. The signage however does just say Bletchley. That is, it has a separate CRS code.

 

[Supercoss]

A train routed via fenny stratford or Milton Keynes can serve either high level or low level (BLY) so different code required To signify route .

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember this dual CRS thing was discussed in the main EWR thread about last October, and I think it’s just because they haven’t got round to linking the codes together for public facing information purposes. There’s the same underlying two code setup at Tamworth and Lichfield for example, but they’ve been tweaked for customer facing information.

 

[SargeNpton]

There are around a dozen stations that, for operating purposes, are split into 2 parts - which requires them to have 2 NLCs and 2 CRS codes. However, in all public-facing systems that use the rail industry supplied fares and location code data they should be managed in the background so that all the constituent parts are treated as being part of the main station.

Those systems that create their own lists of locations would need to implement their own workaround so ensure that Bletchley's high-level platforms are treated as part of the existing station.

 

[RGM654]

A train routed via fenny stratford or Milton Keynes can serve either high level or low level (BLY) so different code required To signify route .

Fair enough if that is the case, but how is it different from incoming trains having a choice of platforms at any station?

 

[Robski]

Separate CRS codes for the same station are nothing new. For example in some data feeds the CRS code for the Elizabeth line platforms at Paddington is "PDX".

Public facing systems will probably be updated closer to time of opening to group the separate TIPLOCs under one CRS code.

A train routed via fenny stratford or Milton Keynes can serve either high level or low level (BLY) so different code required To signify route .

CRS codes are not used to indicate route. A significant proportion of non-station locations do not have them.

 

[Bald Rick]

My initial question will be which “system”? Because there are multiple stations that technically have differentials but for front facing systems are treated as the same.

For instance Paddington (EL) and Liverpool Street (EL) are treated as the same station as the NR equivalents for journey planning purposes (PAD / LST), but in many others are not (PDX&PAD, LSX&LST)

Realtime Trains is where I've seen it. The signage however does just say Bletchley. That is, it has a separate CRS code.

As others have said, lots of examples of stations having different CRS codes in railway systems that are merged for Real Train Times etc. Including Tamworth and Lichfield! St Pancras has 3 - STP for Platforms 1-4, SPX for 5-11 and SPL for the Thameslink platforms.

 

[Supercoss]

Fair enough if that is the case, but how is it different from incoming trains having a choice of platforms at any station?

The 3 letter code also has an associated ‘stannox’ numner used for scheduling it might just be different platform numbers 7 and 8 but the end route is what is important
choice of platforms not an issue if on same route, no good scheduling something say to Watford junction via Bletchley high level as end route not achievable.
internal systems such as trust can be interrogated by CRS code or stannox
( station name number or x + code)

 

[The Planner]

The 3 letter code also has an associated ‘stannox’ numner used for scheduling it might just be different platform numbers 7 and 8 but the end route is what is important
choice of platforms not an issue if on same route, no good scheduling something say to Watford junction via Bletchley high level as end route not achievable.
internal systems such as trust can be interrogated by CRS code or stannox
( station name number or x + code)

Unless someone has messed up royally, you wouldn't be able to plan to High Level from a non achievable route.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Waterloo comes to mind as officially one station with two codes (WAT, WAE).

Are there any other examples of one station with two codes? None of the stations I can find with separate low level platforms (Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Liverpool Street, Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool Central, Moorfields, Paddington, Shotton) have separate codes for upper and lower

 

[Bletchleyite]

Waterloo comes to mind as officially one station with two codes (WAT, WAE).

Waterloo East is shown in retail systems as a different station.

 

[SargeNpton]

Waterloo comes to mind as officially one station with two codes (WAT, WAE).

Are there any other examples of one station with two codes? None of the stations I can find with separate low level platforms (Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Liverpool Street, Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool Central, Moorfields, Paddington, Shotton) have separate codes for upper and lower

Waterloo and Waterloo East are two separate stations, so the two CRS Codes are necessary.

To add to your list: Farringdon, Whitechapel, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Retford, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International (though the Eurostar side of those last three are not currently used).

 

[Sheddyone]

Waterloo and Waterloo East are two separate stations, so the two CRS Codes are necessary.

To add to your list: Farringdon, Whitechapel, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Retford, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International (though the Eurostar side of those last three are not currently used).

Smethwick Galton Bridge used to list High Level and Low Level separately on some apps. Not seen that for a while though.

 

[JB_B]

...

To add to your list: Farringdon, Whitechapel, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Retford, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International (though the Eurostar side of those last three are not currently used).

Railway codes ( http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/crs/crs2.shtm ) helpfully provides this list and a fairly plausible explanation for the existence of dual CRS codes:-


"Some stations running over two separate lines have a different CRS code for each line. Normally only one works for national rail enquiries.

The reason for most of these stations having two codes was for the old Disabled Passenger Reporting System (DPRS), which allowed staff assisting disabled passengers to know to which part of the station to direct their attention. DPRS no longer exists.


Ebbsfleet International EBD EBF
Glasgow Central GLC GCL
Glasgow Queen Street GLQ GQL
Heworth HEW HEZ
Highbury & Islington HHY HII XHZ
Lichfield Trent Valley LTV LIF
Liverpool Lime Street LIV LVL
Liverpool South Parkway LPY ALE
London St Pancras STP SPL SPX
Retford RET XRO
Tamworth TAM TAH
Willesden Junction WIJ WJH WJL
Worcestershire Parkway WOP WPH


Additionally, for this station there is some doubt over the existence of dual codes:

Smethwick Galton Bridge SGB GTI

The first code shown above defines the whole station for all passenger ticketing and train enquiries. The subsequent code(s) in each group are recognised by most retail systems but are converted to the first code in the background."


I think that this was at one point the case at Richmond too - but not any longer it seems.

 

[mdog69]

Heworth HEW HEZ

HEW = Network Rail station
HEZ = Metro platforms
As seen on realtimetrains.co.uk detailed view - go to Sunderland and look for a train to Airport and compare against a NT service to Newcastle or beyond.

Similar thing with NCL and NCZ for Newcastle/Central.

 

[Adrian Barr]

It's interesting to look in the location directory in TRUST to see how all this is set up on the internal systems. For each station you have the full location name (which is not necessarily the official station name), the Tiploc (up to 7 characters, used in planning systems), the familiar 3-letter CRS station code, the Stanox number (used by TOPS), and the Stanox name (maximum 9-character version of the location name which is the abbreviated location name displayed when looking at TRUST - shown as "Stanme" below).

Location name BLETCHLEY
Tiploc BLTCHLY
CRS code BLY
Stanox 70306
Stanme BLETCHLEY

Location name BLETCHLEY HIGH LEVEL
Tiploc BLTCHHL
CRS code BLU
Stanox 70317
Stanme BLTCHLYHL
--------------------------------------------

I remember being puzzled by the location search function in TRUST (which is similar to the search function on Realtime trains) when looking at Reading. If you type "READING" as the location (instead of RDG for example), you get an error message saying "groups not currently supported." It turns out that Reading station is actually split into two within TRUST, with the 3rd rail bay platforms being a separate location RDZ.

I suppose setting it up like that gave an easy way of getting information from TRUST that focused either on the Southern Region or Western Region services, which were operationally distinct, without having to filter the results by train operator. With the platform numbers of the third-rail bays being numbered in sequence with the rest of the station and physically adjacent to it on the same level, I doubt it would ever have seriously been considered as a separate station (at least during the timeframe when TRUST was around - apparently Reading Southern was a separate station that closed in 1965, with services being transferred to Reading General).

Location name READING
Tiploc RDNGSTN
CRS code RDG
Stanox 74237
Stanme READNG

Location name READING
Tiploc RDNG4AB
CRS code RDZ
Stanox 74236
Stanme RDNG 456

For a location search in TRUST, you have to pick RDG or RDZ. When doing the same thing in Realtime trains, it combines them into one station under the RDG code to show all services at the station. Realtime trains also shows the coach link to Heathrow - there is an RBU code for buses at Reading and the schedules are set up as 0B00 (train category BB in TRUST, "Bus").

Location name READING BUS
Tiploc RDNGBUS
CRS code RBU
Stanox None
Stanme None

When doing a journey enquiry in TRUST (similar to the Journey Planner on National Rail Enquiries), using the name "READING" will show journeys to either part of the station, as appropriate. It groups them under a "pseudo-Tiploc" of RDNGGRP (Reading group) which is the group that wasn't supported on the location search.

Location name READING
Pseudo-tiploc RDNGGRP
Stations in group: RDNGSTN, RDNG4AB

In TRUST, you can still specify a journey to one particular part of Reading station (RDG for the main line and RDZ for the 3rd rail bay platforms), but for example if you try to find a journey from Ealing Broadway to RDZ, it will just give you a journey to RDG and tell you to walk to RDZ (with a zero minute walk time), so you would be better off using a "via" option to specify a particular route.

-----------------------------
At Tamworth, it makes sense to treat the two halves of the station as separate locations, at least for operational reasons within TRUST. For example, when that Turbostar unit was stuck in the platform for a few hours back in April, having a separate TAH location for the high level makes it easier to quickly get a list of trains affected due through the high level platforms, while ignoring unaffected services through the low level.

--------------------------------------------
Lichfield is an interesting case as it includes three locations in a group - the high and low level at Trent Valley plus Lichfield City:

Location name LICHFIELD
Pseudo-tiploc LICHFLD
Stations in group: LICHFIELD CITY, LICHFIELD TRENT VALLEY HL, LICHFIELD TRENT VALLEY LL

A journey enquiry to "Lichfield" will show journeys to any of the three, whichever is the more logical route to arrive on (and shows times at both Lichfield City and Trent Valley for trains that call at both).
-------------------------

Smethwick is similar, with separate locations for the high and low level at Galton Bridge, plus a "Smethwick" group which includes Rolfe Street.
In Realtime trains, the high and low level at Galton Bridge are combined under SGB.

Location name SMETHWICK GALTON BDG L.L.
Tiploc GALTILL
CRS code XGQ
Stanox 65822
Stanme GALTONBLL

Location name SMETHWICK GALTON BDG H.L.
Tiploc GALTINT
CRS code SGB
Stanox 65900
Stanme GALTONBHL

Location name SMETHWICK ROLFE STREET
Tiploc SMTHKRS
CRS code SMR
Stanox 65824
Stanme SMTHWKRST

Location name SMETHWICK
Pseudo-tiploc SMETHIK
Stations in group
SMETHWICK GALTON BDG L.L. SMETHWICK GALTON BDG H.L. SMETHWICK ROLFE STREET

------------------------------
Richmond has a separate location for the North London Line part of the station (XRI). In this case there is no separate "group" set up. The same is also true for Highbury & Islington, which has 3 CRS codes but no group combining them. Despite this, using the journey enquiry in TRUST, a journey from HHY to RMD (through platforms at Richmond) still gives the sensible option via the North London line - it just adds zero minute walks from HHY (Moorgate platforms of Highbury & Islington) to HII (North London line platforms) at the beginning and from XRI to RMD at the end.

Location name RICHMOND
Tiploc RICHMND
CRS code RMD
Stanox 87135
Stanme RICHMOND

Location name RICHMOND NLL
Tiploc RICHNLL
CRS code XRI
Stanox 87132
Stanme RICHMNDNL

Location name HIGHBURY & ISLINGTON
Tiploc HGHI
CRS code HHY
Stanox 54293
Stanme HIGH&ISGN

Location name HIGHBURY + ISLINGTON
Tiploc HIGHBYA
CRS code HII
Stanox 52053
Stanme HIGH&ISNL

Location name HIGHBURY AND ISLINGTON ELL
Tiploc HIGHBYE
CRS code XHZ
Stanox 52051
Stanme HIGHBYELL

-------------------------------------
So even if the Bletchley main line and high level platforms are two separate locations in TRUST, by the time East West Rail opens this should be combined into a single location on public-facing systems under BLY (as per post #7 and #8) as different platform numbers of a single station, with the distinction between high and low level hidden from view unless you are looking directly at TRUST or some other internal system.

On the topic of walking times, TRUST doesn't seem to add any extra walking time between different parts of stations that are officially considered one station with the same name (although the official interchange time at these stations should include an allowance for this). For example, Glasgow Queen Street high level to low level platforms is shown as a zero minute walk, but Glasgow Central (high or low Level) to Glasgow Queen Street (high or low level) is shown as a 20-minute walk, and London Waterloo to Waterloo East is shown as a 16 minute walk. As mentioned in post #16 I think Waterloo East (WAE) is officially considered as a separate station to London Waterloo (WAT), for example it has a separate entry in the station information section of the National Rail website, they have distinct names on the station signage, and one is managed by Network Rail and the other by Southeastern. The lettering of the platforms at Waterloo East is an interesting oddity - on the one hand it's obviously desirable to have platform numbers that cannot be confused with the main Waterloo station, but officially being separate stations would have made it odd to give Waterloo East platform numbers that followed on from the main station, e.g. platform 25. In contrast, somewhere like Glasgow Central has the low level platforms numbered in sequence with the rest of the station because although they are physically separate, they are officially part of the same station.

Stations in the list in post #18 have 2 or 3 CRS codes, but (unlike the situation at Waterloo) only one is recognised by National Rail Enquiries, and are officially a single station with a single name (e.g. Tamworth is the official station name rather than Tamworth High Level and Low Level).

As for a problem with the CRS code at Bletchley mentioned in post #2, attempting a journey enquiry in TRUST from BLY to BLU (which should tell you to walk, i.e. from the main line platforms to the high level platforms) results in a "No reasonable journey found" from Bletchley to... BLUNDELLSANDS & CROSBY.

I assume the code for Blundellsands & Crosby was changed from BLU to BLN to avoid a clash with Bletchley high level platforms, but that hasn't quite filtered through to the journey planner within TRUST. So be careful at Bletchley when East West Rail opens, there could be some sort of portal that opens up and teleports unwary travellers on an unreasonable journey to Merseyside!

 

[DelW]

It's interesting to look in the location directory in TRUST to see how all this is set up on the internal systems. For each station you have the full location name (which is not necessarily the official station name), the Tiploc (up to 7 characters, used in planning systems), the familiar 3-letter CRS station code, the Stanox number (used by TOPS), and the Stanox name (maximum 9-character version of the location name which is the abbreviated location name displayed when looking at TRUST - shown as "Stanme" below).

Thank you, that's explained a few things that I'd never properly understood!

 

[norbitonflyer]

officially being separate stations would have made it odd to give Waterloo East platform numbers that followed on from the main station, e.g. platform 25.

There is already a platform 25 at Waterloo - it is one of the Waterloo & City Line platforms.
The other three Tube lines at Waterloo are numbered in a separate sequence, so are duplicates of platforms 1-6 in the main station

 

[Mojo]

I seem to remember that when Thameslink trains still operated into Moorgate adjacent to the Met line platforms they appeared on a different Live Departures Board page to the Great Northern services that operated into the lower level platforms.

 

[Bald Rick]

I seem to remember that when Thameslink trains still operated into Moorgate adjacent to the Met line platforms they appeared on a different Live Departures Board page to the Great Northern services that operated into the lower level platforms.

Indeed.

The GN station is ‘MOG’, the ex Midland platforms were ‘ZMG’

 

[plugwash]

Does anyone know why platforms 7 and 8 at Bletchley are in the system as a separate station rather than as part of the existing one? I've not seen this done before, and it isn't the case at stations like Tamworth and Lichfield which have upper and lower parts.

I may be misremembering but I'm pretty sure that during testing of the crossrail core, the test trains showed up on realtime trains with "secondary" CRS codes, but when the line actually opened they used the main CRS code for the stations.

 

[louis97]

I may be misremembering but I'm pretty sure that during testing of the crossrail core, the test trains showed up on realtime trains with "secondary" CRS codes, but when the line actually opened they used the main CRS code for the stations.

That is because Realtime Trains has merged the Crossrail Core trains in with the trains at the main CRS code. Behind the scenes they are still timed at the secondary location.

 

[reb0118]

Are there any other examples of one station with two codes? None of the stations I can find with separate low level platforms (....... Glasgow Queen Street, .......) have separate codes for upper and lower

GLQ for Glasgow Queen Street High Level and GQL for the low level platforms.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone know why platforms 7 and 8 at Bletchley are in the system as a separate station rather than as part of the existing one? I've not seen this done before, and it isn't the case at stations like Tamworth and Lichfield which have upper and lower parts.

Is it so additional interchange time can be added to these two platforms (as it's a longer walk to them) without messing up the standard 5 minutes at the rest of it?

If that is the case, how come Earlestown isn't in as two stations as that has a fairly long walk between the two parts of the station?

For passenger-facing journey planning purposes, I am sure they will use the same code, even if they have separate codes for behind-the-scenes purposes.

A separate code is not needed for differential interchange time, providing separate TOC codes are used. At locations where there are big differences within the same TOC, then a differential just isn't possible.

 

[Falcon1200]

GLQ for Glasgow Queen Street High Level and GQL for the low level platforms.

Are you sure about that? Realtime trains shows all trains at Queen Street, High and Low Levels, under GLQ. Similarly, Glasgow Central is GLC, only.

 

[yorkie]

Are you sure about that? Realtime trains shows all trains at Queen Street, High and Low Levels, under GLQ. Similarly, Glasgow Central is GLC, only.

See:

This http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/crs/crs2.shtm broadly covers it.

IIRC there was a problem with the original code allocated, but that might be incidental.

Some stations running over two separate lines have a different CRS code for each line. Normally only one works for national rail enquiries.

The reason for most of these stations having two codes was for the old Disabled Passenger Reporting System (DPRS), which allowed staff assisting disabled passengers to know to which part of the station to direct their attention. DPRS no longer exists.