Blanket 50mph speed restriction on Southeastern (10/03)

[alistairlees]

Because of high winds there is currently a blanket 50mph speed restriction across Southeastern, imposed by Network Rail. I can understand this as several trains have already hit fallen trees or other debris.

My question is: with the lineside tree-felling programme well underway (the effects are very visible on many lines in the SE), will the need for a blanket speed restriction to be imposed as a precaution eventually be done away with? So far as I am aware it doesn't apply to HS1 because there are no adjacent trees, for instance.

 

[ComUtoR]

So far as I am aware it doesn't apply to HS1 because there are no adjacent trees, for instance.

The restriction applies to the 'Whole Kent Route' I can't see any mention of HS1 being excluded.

 

[ComUtoR]

My question is: with the lineside tree-felling programme well underway (the effects are very visible on many lines in the SE), will the need for a blanket speed restriction to be imposed as a precaution eventually be done away with?

It's not just about trees. High winds causes all kinds of problems.

 

[alistairlees]

The restriction applies to the 'Whole Kent Route' I can't see any mention of HS1 being excluded.

In the past HS1 has been excluded but perhaps not this time

 

[ComUtoR]

There is normally a list of locations on each blanket restriction posted. You can get a blanket restriction on different sections and you often get them coastal side of Kent. The notice literally states : 'Whole Kent Route' Not forgetting that HS1 drops off at Ebbsfleet and comes of HS1 lines.

 

[bramling]

Because of high winds there is currently a blanket 50mph speed restriction across Southeastern, imposed by Network Rail. I can understand this as several trains have already hit fallen trees or other debris.

My question is: with the lineside tree-felling programme well underway (the effects are very visible on many lines in the SE), will the need for a blanket speed restriction to be imposed as a precaution eventually be done away with? So far as I am aware it doesn't apply to HS1 because there are no adjacent trees, for instance.

Probably not, as the tree felling doesn’t mitigate against trees which are outside the railway boundary.

 

[Bald Rick]

The restriction applies to the 'Whole Kent Route' I can't see any mention of HS1 being excluded.

HS1 is not part of Kent Route, although geographically it is of course mostly in Kent.

Probably not, as the tree felling doesn’t mitigate against trees which are outside the railway boundary.

Quite. Also it is about all sorts of other obstructions on the line - sheds, roofs, trampolines, etc.

 

[KingJ]

The National Rail Enquiries disruption page for high winds on Southern appears to say the speed restriction applies to more than just the Kent route;

For instance in this case a 50mph speed restriction is in place across Sussex, Kent and Wessex.

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My question is: with the lineside tree-felling programme well underway (the effects are very visible on many lines in the SE), will the need for a blanket speed restriction to be imposed as a precaution eventually be done away with? So far as I am aware it doesn't apply to HS1 because there are no adjacent trees, for instance.

Aside from trees, there's a fair amount of other things that tend to get flung around a fair amount in high winds and cause significant issues for the railway (trampolines being the infamous example!). Of course, the lineside tree felling programme can also cause trains to strike trees - on Monday this week a Southeastern service struck a tree stump, presumably having being felled during the blockage the day before.

 

[ComUtoR]

HS1 is not part of Kent Route, although geographically it is of course mostly in Kent.

If a 395 comes off at Ebbsfleet. It will have to adhere to the blanket speed restriction. I don't drive HS1 units so I know very little about their specific infrastructure but if they are on the 'normal' lines then they run on the Kent route section.

 

[Bald Rick]

If a 395 comes off at Ebbsfleet. It will have to adhere to the blanket speed restriction. I don't drive HS1 units so I know very little about their specific infrastructure but if they are on the 'normal' lines then they run on the Kent route section.

Absolutely. But on the HS1 line, there’s no restriction.

 

[DarloRich]

My question is: with the lineside tree-felling programme well underway (the effects are very visible on many lines in the SE), will the need for a blanket speed restriction to be imposed as a precaution eventually be done away with? So far as I am aware it doesn't apply to HS1 because there are no adjacent trees, for instance.

There is more to consider than tress.

 

[alistairlees]

Quite. Also it is about all sorts of other obstructions on the line - sheds, roofs, trampolines, etc.

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway, such as a tree, which may weigh many tonnes. Surely this view is borne out by the fact that HS1 - onto which things could still, presumably, be blown - is not (or has not been in the past) subjected to speed restrictions at times of high winds?

 

[vinnym70]

Not a fan of cutting down trees generally. But - any tree that is is danger of fouling the rails must surely be in scope for removal?
The sheer scale of a potential accident caused by a train hitting a tree at high speed must surely suggest any tree with a height capable of fouling the running lines should be coppiced whether on railway property or not.
Even where a train doesn't hit the fallen tree, the disruption caused by damage to overhead wires as is the case at Bishops Stortford today must focus minds somewhat.
Tall trees near the railways can easily create delays and potentially significant costs when they fall over

 

[AM9]

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway, such as a tree, which may weigh many tonnes. Surely this view is borne out by the fact that HS1 - onto which things could still, presumably, be blown - is not (or has not been in the past) subjected to speed restrictions at times of high winds?

Also there doesn't seem to be any OLE blown down on HS1 'as soon as there is a moderate wind' either, despite the oft repeated claims of some posters here.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway,

and when the "lightweight" trampoline welds itself to the conductor rail what happens then?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway, such as a tree, which may weigh many tonnes. Surely this view is borne out by the fact that HS1 - onto which things could still, presumably, be blown - is not (or has not been in the past) subjected to speed restrictions at times of high winds?

A couple of points. Non-tree items that get blown on to the railway are almost exclusively in built up areas. Where HS1 is in built up areas, it is either underground (and therefore wind proof), on viaduct (and therefore above the blown debris), or has a 3 metre high sound barrier fencing to protect the built up areas from the noise of the trains. This fencing also has the by-effect of keeping out debris.

Secondly, it doesn’t matter if it is tree, a trampoline, etc - if it is in an awkward position it will still come through the cab window. And in certain circumstances it can also come through the passenger windows. Hence the 50mph restriction, which enables drivers to, effectively, stop within sight of the track ahead.

 

[nuts & bolts]

and when the "lightweight" trampoline welds itself to the conductor rail what happens then?

In the recent past, there were the free supermarket shopping bags ala Tesco which were also an OLE issue

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The most famous one was a cockle shed on the line at Leigh-on-Sea in the 1987 storm. Along with a few fishing boats.

Not to mention a Railway sponsored marquee for a jolly (obviously cancelled) at Ripple Lane. More than trees therefore.

 

[306024]

The most famous one was a cockle shed on the line at Leigh-on-Sea in the 1987 storm. Along with a few fishing boats.

Not to mention a Railway sponsored marquee for a jolly (obviously cancelled) at Ripple Lane. More than trees therefore.

The Control log for that night was brilliantly put together, starting with minor items leading up to the aforementioned cockle shed. Liverpool St Deputy Chief Controllers had a reputation for dry humour.

Meanwhile in Belgium a 0 mph speed limit was imposed over much of the country for over 4 hours. Nothing moving. Luckily my journey was planned to be by rail replacment bus to start with, not a statement you’ll read on here very often.

 

[LowLevel]

The most famous one was a cockle shed on the line at Leigh-on-Sea in the 1987 storm. Along with a few fishing boats.

Not to mention a Railway sponsored marquee for a jolly (obviously cancelled) at Ripple Lane. More than trees therefore.

I remember one night maybe 6 years ago the London to Lincoln 222 hit 3 or 4 separate obstructions on the line during a storm which the crew dutifully removed and it soldiered on albeit delayed. Unfortunately it then had a heavy collision with a garden shed between Nottingham and Newark which disabled it and caused the line to be closed for the rest of the evening.

People mock these speed restrictions but having been on trains that have hit things on the line doing major damage (we have a 153 out at the moment for heavy repair having lost a disagreement with a tree between Heckington and Sleaford last week) I don't see why we should put our safety at risk to move people around to time. All it takes is one air cock to be knocked off to ruin the service for hours and that's without things coming through the windscreen.

 

[LAX54]

In the past year, apart from quite a few trees and parts of tress, we have had a Marquee on the line between North Walsham and Wroxham. Many Garden trampolines, that are obviously not secured correctly, and part of a roof form a Suffolk Council Road Salt Storage Building.

Also recall, when we had those really bad winds from about 6 years ago or so, when the G.E had cancelled all services during the morning, a Freightliner dared risk it from Stratford to Ipswich, now bearing in mind that was the only train running at that time, it took some 5 to 6 hours to get from Stratford to Ipswich !

 

[Right Away]

One from a few years ago. A giant inflatable Ronald McDonald ended up on the line in Newport.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gia...rupts-trains-in-south-wales-1.442826?mode=amp

 

[ScotGG]

Are we sure this wasn't Grayling trial running lower speeds for a mass transfer of Pacers if/when a new franchise is ever awarded?

 

[theageofthetra]

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway, such as a tree, which may weigh many tonnes. Surely this view is borne out by the fact that HS1 - onto which things could still, presumably, be blown - is not (or has not been in the past) subjected to speed restrictions at times of high winds?

I wouldn't want to hit a metal framed trampoline at line speed. The leg could easily puncture the windscreen, a shed roof could be equally bad.

 

[bramling]

I'd have thought that anything that could be blown onto the railway is by its very nature - it must be relatively light - of less danger than something that can fall on the railway, such as a tree, which may weigh many tonnes. Surely this view is borne out by the fact that HS1 - onto which things could still, presumably, be blown - is not (or has not been in the past) subjected to speed restrictions at times of high winds?

Yes it’s *probably* the case that it will be lightweight things, but notwithstanding the fact that this can still do damage (especially bearing in mind the driver at the sharp end) it’s still a risk. With no room for error at 100mph or even 80mph I’d be happier not taking the risk.

50mph seems to me a reasonable compromise. It still allows a reasonable timetable to be offered, and greatly reduces the level of risk. Of course a 50mph derailment could still be nasty, especially should something be coming the other way at the time.