Blackpool Tourists

[Lampshade]

The York - Blackpools can be lively, the amount of people travelling from my native North East to Blackpool and drinking all the way there and back can be quite messy, however a nice female did drunkenly propose to me once

Hebden Bridge - Burnley Manchester Road seemed pretty lively on Saturday evening, more akin to a football match hock:

 

[Ivo]

The York - Blackpools can be lively, the amount of people travelling from my native North East to Blackpool and drinking all the way there and back can be quite messy, however a nice female did drunkenly propose to me once

Only on a Blackpool train... :roll:

 

[CarterUSM]

I prefer a door you open "out" from the cab. The 322's have this, though it is a stiff BR1B lock where you twist the key to release the latch. Not to mention some guards who leave their only key in the control desk and lock themselves out. Not me of course, i have keys coming out my ears!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A sore point indeed! I do love dear old Blackpool, despite it's faults, and I await with excitement the day that it emerges from it's revamp as a much classier place. BUT....for heaven's sake bring back the proper tramway! This has been discussed elsewhere at great length, but briefly I am gutted that in their rush for improvement nobody realised the mistake of ripping out one if the town's most cherished attractions. A modern tramway is of no tourist interest whatsoever, every town has one or so it seems. And so the highly seasonal, tourist-based nature of the existing system doesn't make for a promising starting point. Who wants to pay tourist prices for a ride on a Europlastic?! Certainly not those whose visit always included the classic ride on a "Blackpool Tram". A small selection of summer-only, much-modified Balloons playing second fiddle to the new stuff, just won't be the same. A sad time indeed :cry:

Blackpool in trying very hard to be a modern updated resort thanks to business and local authority involvement. They want to cater for modern holidaymakers with modern facilities, not occasional transport enthusiasts.

If you want heritage trams, set in a nice area, by all means visit Crich. That area has never made a case for modernisation.

It's bad enough that people still want to keep the old roof at Manchester Victoria rather than the proposed new one saying "it does not sympathically match the Victorian station".

Whether you like it or not, it is 2011 and 2020, 2030, etc, will soon be on us.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Huddersfield it's self is fine. Its when we stop at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge and Ashton that things get "interesting"

What did you really think would happen when supermarkets got the go-ahead to supply all types of alcoholic beverages, with their "loss-leader" pricing structure. Look at the number of public houses that have closed over the last 10 years. Only "Bargain Booze" seems able to compete with them.
Not a day goes past when Tesco, Sainsbury and the rest put television adverts for cases of 24 tins of various alcohol, with emphasis on buying 2 or 3 of these cases.

This has led to the current "cheap drink" mentality that now prevails and I really do sympathise with train staff (and bus drivers) who have problems with passengers who find alcohol so cheap to buy. The number of train staff on this thread will bear out what I say.

 

[seagull]

Blackpool is wonderful - after you've been to Rhyl...

 

[175001]

What did you really think would happen when supermarkets got the go-ahead to supply all types of alcoholic beverages, with their "loss-leader" pricing structure. Look at the number of public houses that have closed over the last 10 years. Only "Bargain Booze" seems able to compete with them.
Not a day goes past when Tesco, Sainsbury and the rest put television adverts for cases of 24 tins of various alcohol, with emphasis on buying 2 or 3 of these cases.

This has led to the current "cheap drink" mentality that now prevails and I really do sympathise with train staff (and bus drivers) who have problems with passengers who find alcohol so cheap to buy. The number of train staff on this thread will bear out what I say.

I'm a Victoria guard, and I see this line getting worse every day, and it's nothing to do with the cheap supermarkets but the Trans Pennine Rail Ale trail. Ask any Vic guard which line is the worst at the moment at weekends, and 99.9% of my fellow colleagues will name the huddersfield line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Blackpool is wonderful - after you've been to Rhyl...

Agreed...but we dont want to compare foreign resorts!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a Victoria guard, and I see this line getting worse every day, and it's nothing to do with the cheap supermarkets but the Trans Pennine Rail Ale trail. Ask any Vic guard which line is the worst at the moment at weekends, and 99.9% of my fellow colleagues will name the huddersfield line.

I agree that the Huddersfield line does has very specific alcoholic problems of the real ale" variety. Three of my contacts rang me after my posting to fully agree what you said. For this, you get triple my sympathy for "HUD" duties.

But I am making the case NATIONALLY for the case that supermarkets have to answer for. Not all the problem travellers are in the Northern Rail area.....it only seems like that.

 

[175001]

I very much agree with the national problem, you do see a lot now catching later trains into Manchester already tanked up after being at home. It certainly is a sad state of affairs.

 

[WestCoast]

Blackpool is wonderful - after you've been to Rhyl...

Or indeed Morecambe, but as Paul Sidorczuk says, the foreign competition is still too much for Blackpool (let's face it - Benidorm can offer a Blackpool experience in the sunshine). Or, even some of the cheaper resorts in Turkey and Bulgaria. People will still come for day trips, but longer holidays are becoming rarer than they used to be, regardless of the economic situation. Not that I blame people, living 5 or so miles out means that it's no holiday destination for me .

But I am making the case NATIONALLY for the case that supermarkets have to answer for. Not all the problem travellers are in the Northern Rail area.....it only seems like that.

Yet most of the booze in European supermarkets (with the exception of the Scandinavian countries) is sold even cheaper than in the UK shops, drinking ages are sometimes lower and rules are often less strict. While there still are alcohol problems, they seem to be nothing at all like in the UK. Different 'cultures' and attitudes I suppose.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or indeed Morecambe, but as Paul Sidorczuk says, the foreign competition is still too much for Blackpool (let's face it - Benidorm can offer a Blackpool experience in the sunshine). Or, even some of the cheaper resorts in Turkey and Bulgaria. People will still come for day trips, but longer holidays are becoming rarer than they used to be, regardless of the economic situation. Not that I blame people, living 5 or so miles out means that it's no holiday destination for me .



Yet most of the booze in European supermarkets (with the exception of the Scandinavian countries) is sold even cheaper than in the UK shops, drinking ages are sometimes lower and rules are often less strict. While there still are alcohol problems, they seem to be nothing at all like in the UK. Different 'cultures' and attitudes I suppose.

I take your point about European supermarkets, but the tax on alcohol levied varies from country to country, that makes such a discrepancy.

The point on this thread is how ultra-cheap British supermarket alcohol makes the problems for British rail travellers NATIONALLY. Of course, you are right about the drink culture here...both male and female imbibers are binge drinkers whose aim is to consume as much alcohol as possible in the shortest possible time to achieve the desired effect of total oblivion, with the help of soft drugs to mix at the same time, if clubbing!!. The special extra problem seems to be the Cross-Pennine real ale brigade who are the bane of the life of Huddersfield rail staff on trains entering their area.

 

[umontu]

Not that I blame people, living 5 or so miles out means that it's no holiday destination for me .

A person related to me who lives near Salwick, and will remain nameless, goes on holiday to Blackpool every summer, their highlight used to be the trams or having relatives visit.


The Huddersfield - Man Vic route never struck me as too rough, must be a selective timing I've been on it, that and only going to Marsden. Is it late nights when it's worse?

 

[WestCoast]

A person related to me who lives near Salwick, and will remain nameless, goes on holiday to Blackpool every summer, their highlight used to be the trams or having relatives visit.

hock:I am actually speechless. Sounds very 1895 wakes week! The weather can be pretty rubbish in June - August as well. But whatever floats your boat and all that....

 

[samj1]

Has either Blackpool lines ever had a problem with kids messing around throwing stones or vandalism?

 

[WestCoast]

Has either Blackpool lines ever had a problem with kids messing around throwing stones or vandalism?

Well, both of the Blackpool branch lines are only in Blackpool itself for a relatively short length, most of the Blackpool North line is in open countryside after leaving Poulton-le-Fylde, but I don't know of any major problems above what is experienced on other lines.

There's a few drivers and guards who sign this route on RailUK, they will know more than me.

 

[driver9000]

Has either Blackpool lines ever had a problem with kids messing around throwing stones or vandalism?

Yes, it goes through phases. Recently it hasn't been a problem but in the past I've had stones thrown at my train or had bits of ballast on the railhead, tends to be worse the closer you are to Blackpool.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, it goes through phases. Recently it hasn't been a problem but in the past I've had stones thrown at my train or had bits of ballast on the railhead, tends to be worse the closer you are to Blackpool.

I presume Network Rail still send someone to visit schools throughout the country? Even so, I'd expect this sort of thing to peak around the school holidays.

 

[175001]

The Huddersfield - Man Vic route never struck me as too rough, must be a selective timing I've been on it, that and only going to Marsden. Is it late nights when it's worse?

Weekdays are nice and calm, but come to around 12pm on a Saturday afternoon, things take a turn for the worse. Incidents have happened, and more will happen as the summer approaches. Not going to disclose things on a public forum, but things are bad on Saturdays. And guess what I've got a HUD on Friday and Saturday night this weekend......yep I'm dreading it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

hock:I am actually speechless. Sounds very 1895 wakes week! The weather can be pretty rubbish in June - August as well. But whatever floats your boat and all that....

Did you ever see the film "HINDLE WAKES"? That summed up what wakes weeks holidays to Blackpool were all about in those days.

Joking aside, when all the mill towns had their wakes weeks, Blackpool was ideally situated to receive the millworkers by rail, as they had stations in those days with good rail connections to Blackpool. That is why the numbers of boarding houses were at the level they were in those days...and the holidaymakers accepted basic accomodation and meals, as that was what they were used to at home. Fact of life!!!

Blackpool is now trying to get away from the "cheap and cheerful" image that it once sought to supply to working-class holidaymakers. We should all be pleased that something is being done by a resort in the north-west region.

 

[BestWestern]

Blackpool in trying very hard to be a modern updated resort thanks to business and local authority involvement. They want to cater for modern holidaymakers with modern facilities, not occasional transport enthusiasts.

If you want heritage trams, set in a nice area, by all means visit Crich. That area has never made a case for modernisation.

Whether you like it or not, it is 2011 and 2020, 2030, etc, will soon be on us.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So by that logic, when is the Tower coming down to be replaced by something 'modern'?! There was a far wider range of interest in the old trams than simply 'occasional transport enthusiasts', as anybody who visits the town frequently will know. They were an integral part of the resort. Quite aside from that, the out of season quiet period will cast serious doubts over the wisdom of such a major investment. This isn't Manchester, or Croydon, or Edinburgh; it's a highly seasonal seaside resort with very little activity outside of the tourist period. Hence there is no multi-million pound tramway development in Scarborough or Skegness.

Moving with the times doesn't necessarily mean replacing everything that isn't 'modern', hence the Pleasure Beach still has it's original wooden coasters and Noah's Ark. It is called heritage, and sometimes it's more appropriate to the situational needs than the 'rip it up and concrete everything' mentality!

 

[trickyvegas]

Weekdays are nice and calm, but come to around 12pm on a Saturday afternoon, things take a turn for the worse. Incidents have happened, and more will happen as the summer approaches. Not going to disclose things on a public forum, but things are bad on Saturdays. And guess what I've got a HUD on Friday and Saturday night this weekend......yep I'm dreading it.

Saddleworth Beer Walk is 18th June in case anyone is thinking of putting in a holiday request.

 

[175001]

Saddleworth Beer Walk is 18th June in case anyone is thinking of putting in a holiday request.

Cheers for that mate. Lucky I'm long weekend!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Blackpool in trying very hard to be a modern updated resort thanks to business and local authority involvement. They want to cater for modern holidaymakers with modern facilities, not occasional transport enthusiasts.

If you want heritage trams, set in a nice area, by all means visit Crich. That area has never made a case for modernisation.

Whether you like it or not, it is 2011 and 2020, 2030, etc, will soon be on us.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So by that logic, when is the Tower coming down to be replaced by something 'modern'?! There was a far wider range of interest in the old trams than simply 'occasional transport enthusiasts', as anybody who visits the town frequently will know. They were an integral part of the resort. Quite aside from that, the out of season quiet period will cast serious doubts over the wisdom of such a major investment. This isn't Manchester, or Croydon, or Edinburgh; it's a highly seasonal seaside resort with very little activity outside of the tourist period. Hence there is no multi-million pound tramway development in Scarborough or Skegness.

Moving with the times doesn't necessarily mean replacing everything that isn't 'modern', hence the Pleasure Beach still has it's original wooden coasters and Noah's Ark. It is called heritage, and sometimes it's more appropriate to the situational needs than the 'rip it up and concrete everything' mentality!

Would you not say that Paris is not a modern city...but that does not mean that they would ever dismantle the Eiffel Tower. Blackpool Tower is receiving a great deal of money from the company who is trying to upgrade it to a modern attraction. I would ask you to go on their web site and see how many places they have projects within. The only large tower attraction that I can recall was only ever partly constructed and was demolished due to lack of interest...this was conceived by a famous railway mogul and the original Wembley station was built on its site. Look at the dvd "Metroland" with John Betjamin which features the story.

You will find that the idea of a "highly seasonal resort" will be changing in the 21st century. You quoted two items on the Pleasure Beach, but these are not the norm. Or have you never seen "The Big One"...it's a much bigger attraction (as noting the visitor numbers using it) than the original wooden coaster that you mention. Have you ever been inside "The Sandcastle" and seen the facilities inside?

 

[BestWestern]

Would you not say that Paris is not a modern city...but that does not mean that they would ever dismantle the Eiffel Tower. Blackpool Tower is receiving a great deal of money from the company who is trying to upgrade it to a modern attraction. I would ask you to go on their web site and see how many places they have projects within. The only large tower attraction that I can recall was only ever partly constructed and was demolished due to lack of interest...this was conceived by a famous railway mogul and the original Wembley station was built on its site. Look at the dvd "Metroland" with John Betjamin which features the story.

You will find that the idea of a "highly seasonal resort" will be changing in the 21st century. You quoted two items on the Pleasure Beach, but these are not the norm. Or have you never seen "The Big One"...it's a much bigger attraction (as noting the visitor numbers using it) than the original wooden coaster that you mention. Have you ever been inside "The Sandcastle" and seen the facilities inside?

Yes, I've been on those various attractions numerous times. The Pleasure Beach retains a considerable degree of it's original attractions, as I'm sure you are well aware if you know the place. The Big One is one of the newer rides, which indeed does very well; I wasn't suggesting that no investment should ever be made in anything new. I'm intrigued as to your thoughts on the seasonal nature of Blackpool changing; what did you have in mind? People will continue to take their holidays during half term, summer holiday and bank holidays, I would imagine. Outside of this there will always be some 'traffic' from couples, stag & hen parties and so on, but nowhere near the levels during the holiday season.

As far as the tramway goes, the authorities are pinning their hopes on encouraging a much higher degree of use from the locals so I understand. The problem with this being that there aren't a great many locals who have a regular requirement to travel along the prom by public transport. The link to Fleetwood is possibly slightly more fruitful, but much of the busy Fleetwood Market traffic is made up of concessionary pass holders. It's unlikely that there will be a dramatic increase in local ridership; prices are prohibitive, and there is already a well established local bus network in place which serves a more comprehensive catchment area. This in itself raises further concerns, as the tramway will be operating in competition with Blackpool Transport's own bus services. Under it's previous 'seasonal tourist tramway' guise this wasn't a big issue, but there is only so much public transport that the locals can make use of. The recent heavy investment in new and newer vehicles doesn't suggest any expectations of a downturn in bus operations. Whichever way you look at it, there are a lot of questions over whether this was an investment too far...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes

Yes, I've been on those various attractions numerous times. The Pleasure Beach retains a considerable degree of it's original attractions, as I'm sure you are well aware if you know the place. The Big One is one of the newer rides, which indeed does very well; I wasn't suggesting that no investment should ever be made in anything new. I'm intrigued as to your thoughts on the seasonal nature of Blackpool changing; what did you have in mind? People will continue to take their holidays during half term, summer holiday and bank holidays, I would imagine. Outside of this there will always be some 'traffic' from couples, stag & hen parties and so on, but nowhere near the levels during the holiday season.

As far as the tramway goes, the authorities are pinning their hopes on encouraging a much higher degree of use from the locals so I understand. The problem with this being that there aren't a great many locals who have a regular requirement to travel along the prom by public transport. The link to Fleetwood is possibly slightly more fruitful, but much of the busy Fleetwood Market traffic is made up of concessionary pass holders. It's unlikely that there will be a dramatic increase in local ridership; prices are prohibitive, and there is already a well established local bus network in place which serves a more comprehensive catchment area. This in itself raises further concerns, as the tramway will be operating in competition with Blackpool Transport's own bus services. Under it's previous 'seasonal tourist tramway' guise this wasn't a big issue, but there is only so much public transport that the locals can make use of. The recent heavy investment in new and newer vehicles doesn't suggest any expectations of a downturn in bus operations. Whichever way you look at it, there are a lot of questions over whether this was an investment too far...

Yes, I do know the Fylde coast region...I have quite a few relatives there. I've been going there for over 60 years and have seen many transport changes in that time. I am old enough to know what wakes week were all about. I had aunts and great-aunts who worked in the cotton industry in Manchester and also in Blackburn, Padiham, Darwen and Burnley.

I am glad to mentioned Fleetwood and I note your comments about the buses. Do you have any figures showing the time the bus takes from Fleetwood to Blackpool, in comparison with the trams.

I would suggest you try to read a copy of the report that covers strategic planning for the future of the Fylde region as a whole.

 

[WestCoast]

As far as the tramway goes, the authorities are pinning their hopes on encouraging a much higher degree of use from the locals so I understand. The problem with this being that there aren't a great many locals who have a regular requirement to travel along the prom by public transport. The link to Fleetwood is possibly slightly more fruitful, but much of the busy Fleetwood Market traffic is made up of concessionary pass holders. It's unlikely that there will be a dramatic increase in local ridership; prices are prohibitive, and there is already a well established local bus network in place which serves a more comprehensive catchment area. This in itself raises further concerns, as the tramway will be operating in competition with Blackpool Transport's own bus services. Under it's previous 'seasonal tourist tramway' guise this wasn't a big issue, but there is only so much public transport that the locals can make use of. The recent heavy investment in new and newer vehicles doesn't suggest any expectations of a downturn in bus operations. Whichever way you look at it, there are a lot of questions over whether this was an investment too far...

The tramway once finished will be the quickest way to travel between Blackpool Town Centre, Bispham, Cleveleys and Fleetwood, with the latter two being busy towns in their own right. The current Blackpool Transport service 1 bus, which runs parallel to the tram, caters for a large number of passengers (locals and tourists) including many pensioners right throughout the week. In fact it's not uncommon to see very large numbers of people waiting at North Pier, Cleveleys and Fleetwood. With new easy access trams which will accept free English bus passes, Blackpool Transport could easily withdraw this service and shift a great deal of passengers over to the tram.

For Blackpool - Fleetwood the only other competition is the 14 bus which takes a long "round-the-houses" route inland and takes up to an hour at peak times, with service reliability not all that good, it's common to see buses bunched (2 or even 3) together rather than than the promised every 10 minutes frequency. Travelling end-to-end (which a large amount of people do) will certainly be quicker on the tram.

If the fares are in line with the buses, then I don't think patronage will be too much of an issue with adequate promotion.

 

[BestWestern]

I agree that the bus services take longer than the trams, largely because they serve a wider area than the tramway, i.e. not just the area immediately adjacent to the lines. How many people have a residence very close to the tramway? How many people live closer to a bus stop?! If, as suggested and as would seem to be likely, a big proportion of the intended increased customer base are of the older generation who hold concessionary passes, how many of them are going to want to walk past their bus stop in order to get on a tram?! I still find it very difficult to believe that the tramway will ever manage to fund itself based on a projected, on a wing and a prayer, increase in use outside of the holiday season. Particularly bearing in mind that bog-standard bus operators up and down the country complain of the financial squeeze of having to cart around free pass holders with insufficient renumeration from the local Councils, and this is likely to be a source of 'custom' contributing to the hoped-for increased user base. Nobody involved in Edinburgh's catastrophic efforts ever expected that to happen, and yet they are now putting bids in to sell off chunks of their fleet to Croydon, before they've even turned a wheel! Yes, their problems are of a different nature, but nevertheless there is something those behind the scheme 'projected' quite disasterously wrongly.

Of course, we shall see before too long just how it goes. I wish the tramway as a whole the best of success, as nobody wants to see it close, either seasonally or permanently. Let's hope and prey that doesn't end up being a possibility.

 

[WestCoast]

Naturally buses are going to serve a wider area and be therefore more convenient for those living close to the lines, although there are many properties that are close to tram line right along the route. On the corresponding parallel bus route a high percentage of users are free bus pass holders and we all know the problems with that badly planned scheme and yes, if BT are relying on that revenue it is a little worrying.

However, to gain funding from the DfT is not an easier task and Blackpool Transport, Blackpool Council and Wyre Council must put have put a strong business case forward to fund these 'improvements'.

 

[BestWestern]

Naturally buses are going to serve a wider area and be therefore more convenient for those living close to the lines, although there are many properties that are close to tram line right along the route. On the corresponding parallel bus route a high percentage of users are free bus pass holders and we all know the problems with that badly planned scheme and yes, if BT are relying on that revenue it is a little worrying.

However, to gain funding from the DfT is not an easier task and Blackpool Transport, Blackpool Council and Wyre Council must put have put a strong business case forward to fund these 'improvements'.

I don't doubt that their bid must have been convincing, and indeed the construction doesn't seem to have suffered any snags, and was proceeding apace on a recent visit. But when was the funding bid submitted; presumably just prior to the economic downturn or thereabouts? 'Metro' systems, or whatever you choose to call them, have been a popular choice of urban 'enhancement' in recent years, presumably the last Government was happy to throw money at such schemes, despite them having a notoriously long period of operation prior to break-even point. It seems that Blackpool was just a name on a list of many, no doubt an application deemed as doubly attractive due to it carrying a politically useful 'northern regeneration' label. I am indeed a synical soul, but however you look at it, it has the face of rather large civic indulgence.

 

[Ivo]

Didn't Prescott say something about 25 tram towns/cities at one point? Maybe this could have influenced the decision to provide the rest of the country with an example?

Also, roughly three-quarters of the tram's market is believed to be tourism.

 

[BestWestern]

Didn't Prescott say something about 25 tram towns/cities at one point? Maybe this could have influenced the decision to provide the rest of the country with an example?

Also, roughly three-quarters of the tram's market is believed to be tourism.

You may well be right, typical Labour policies based on chucking money about to fix the world's issues! I really do think that in this case it was a misguided idea from a town which felt that it would be a nice jewel in the crown to top off it's regeneration efforts. Doubtless the fact that the system already existed in it's previous form was a big sway, but that doesn't in itself mean success. I don't believe that there is any real prospect of the tramway suddenly becoming a key part of the transport requirements for the locals, and the figure of around 75% of traffic being seasonal shows just what a challenge lays ahead