Blackpool South to Preston -- train missing from online timetable, but on printed one

[Bungaroosh]

I have this Advance Single:

Thu 3 March
17:13 dep Blackpool South
17:50 arr Preston

then another Advance Single:
17:58 dep Preston
20:10 arr London Euston

The 17:13 from Blackpool South is missing from the online timetable, but the 16:13 and 18:13 are showing.
Online: https://traintimes.org.uk/bps/pre/18:50a/2022-03-03
Printed: https://d11vpqhghel6qd.cloudfront.net/images/timetables/bucket2/preston-to-blackpool-4981-r2nwji.pdf

The 17:13 does not seem to have been running recently either.

Search - Recent Train Times

On consideration, maybe 8 minutes would in any case be cutting it too fine for the change at Preston (I am unfamiliar with Preston station).

I am arriving into Blackpool North on the outward journey so on the way back I thought I'd go from Blackpool South for the different route, but as it's only hourly, and with a tight change, I will defer to the advice I may receive here -- probably needing to go from Blackpool North.

Given that my booked 17:13 train is not running, would I be able to use the same Advance ticket to go from Blackpool North (dep 17:22) to Preston (arr. 17:44)? Or is there somewhere pleasant in or near to Preston station to hang about for an hour if I get the 16:13 from Blackpool South?

Many thanks as ever for the generous advice given here.

 

[Haywain]

Given that my booked 17:13 train is not running, would I be able to use the same Advance ticket to go from Blackpool North (dep 17:22) to Preston (arr. 17:44)? Or is there somewhere pleasant in or near to Preston station to hang about for an hour if I get the 16:13 from Blackpool South?

There is a Good Beer Guide pub, the Old Vic, just across the road from Preston station. A good place to while away an hour.

 

[plugwash]

On consideration, maybe 8 minutes would in any case be cutting it too fine for the change at Preston (I am unfamiliar with Preston station).

It's exactly on the official minimum connect time.

If your train is Cancelled (and presumably removed from the schedule can be considered as cancelled for these purposes) you have the right to travel on the next train, anything beyond that is a bonus. I'd be very surprised if you had any problems travelling on the 16:13 but I could imagine you having more problems trying to travel from Blackpool north.

The other option would presumablly be to seek a refund for the ticket on the cancelled train and buy a new ticket from Blackpool north.

 

[SargeNpton]

The 1712 ex Blackpool South has, for some reason been cancelled for all dates up to 15/4/22. Seems strange to cancel an evening peak trains to leave a 2 hour gap in service when there is an hourly service through the rest of the day. The preceding Preston-Blackpool South train. that would form it, is also cancelled, so can't be an oversight.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's exactly on the official minimum connect time.

If your train is Cancelled (and presumably removed from the schedule can be considered as cancelled for these purposes) you have the right to travel on the next train, anything beyond that is a bonus. I'd be very surprised if you had any problems travelling on the 16:13 but I could imagine you having more problems trying to travel from Blackpool north.

The other option would presumablly be to seek a refund for the ticket on the cancelled train and buy a new ticket from Blackpool north.

Aren’t Blackpool South and North normally interchangeable in terms of ticket acceptance?

 

[Whistler40145]

Aren’t Blackpool South and North normally interchangeable in terms of ticket acceptance?

Not as far as I'm aware

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do North staff do ticket checks on arrival? If not, asking the guard of a suitable Northern train will probably result in being carried.

 

[Whistler40145]

Do North staff do ticket checks on arrival? If not, asking the guard of a suitable Northern train will probably result in being carried.

Ticket gates at Blackpool North

 

[plugwash]

I'm pretty sure blackpool north has automated ticket gates nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah. So you would need to be let through, and knowing the staff there...

You could I suppose ask at the booking office if they will endorse your ticket.

 

[Whistler40145]

Ah. So you would need to be let through, and knowing the staff there...

You could I suppose ask at the booking office if they will endorse your ticket.

Indeed, the dreaded gate staff

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2022 ==

The Northern thread shows a list of service reductions, at times Blackpool South services reduced from hourly to every two hours, this will explain missing services from the online timetable

 

[SargeNpton]

Aren’t Blackpool South and North normally interchangeable in terms of ticket acceptance?

There is no Blackpool "group" location, so tickets would be issued to/from the specific station. Whether there is a local acceptance is another matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no Blackpool "group" location, so tickets would be issued to/from the specific station. Whether there is a local acceptance is another matter.

I was of the understanding the arrangement was local.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was of the understanding the arrangement was local.

I asked this a while back and I believe the case is that "there is no formal arrangement, local or otherwise, but traincrew will often accept it". Because South is not gated (and any revenue block would be within sight of the guard) the best way round to do it is to go to South with a North ticket, not vice versa, if wanting to do a return journey using both.

 

[Watershed]

The 1712 ex Blackpool South has, for some reason been cancelled for all dates up to 15/4/22. Seems strange to cancel an evening peak trains to leave a 2 hour gap in service when there is an hourly service through the rest of the day. The preceding Preston-Blackpool South train. that would form it, is also cancelled, so can't be an oversight.

Not really that strange when you see what's behind it. The Blackpool South service is part of a 5 hourly cycle where units also serve the Colne and Ormskirk lines. At the moment that's extended to 6 hours due to the turnaround at Preston (from Colne to Ormskirk) being an hour longer than usual.

So to save traincrew resources as part of the current timetable reductions, Northern have simply cancelled one of those circuits. Hence the 6 hourly gap in services.

Now of course there's an argument to say that this should be carefully targeted to avoid any peak time trains being cancelled. But it's very unlikely that there's a circuit which never operates any peak time services at any point in the day, so this may just be one of those unfortunate side effects.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really that strange when you see what's behind it. The Blackpool South service is part of a 5 hourly cycle where units also serve the Colne and Ormskirk lines. At the moment that's extended to 6 hours due to the turnaround at Preston (from Colne to Ormskirk) being an hour longer than usual.

That's a permanent extension because the 5-unit cycle was grossly unreliable and resulted in delays and cancellations all over the place. I'm not quite sure why the two lines aren't just separated back up with two units dedicated to Ormskirk as was the case in the 1990s, as that would keep things neater with less knock-on delay, as the only real reason for doing it in the first place was to allow Ormskirk to be upped to hourly without using an extra unit by taking some of the slack out of Blackpool-Colne.

(Or was that going from 4 to 5 units? If so, why is there a two-hour layover in Preston? The extra unit made it an hour and a bit rather than only a few minutes)

 

[Watershed]

That's a permanent extension because the 5-unit cycle was grossly unreliable and resulted in delays and cancellations all over the place.

I think there's still a 5 unit cycle on a Sunday?

I'm not quite sure why the two lines aren't just separated back up with two units dedicated to Ormskirk as was the case in the 1990s, as that would keep things neater with less knock-on delay, as the only real reason for doing it in the first place was to allow Ormskirk to be upped to hourly without using an extra unit by taking some of the slack out of Blackpool-Colne.

Apart from the unit cost, there's the small matter of platforming at Preston. The Colne service arrives at xx20/21 whilst the Blackpool South service departs at xx35/36.

There isn't a through platform free for a unit to sit around for that long, at least not in every hour of the day. So you'd need to do a shunt to free up the platform, which is never ideal and has a cost in terms of traincrew too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there's still a 5 unit cycle on a Sunday?

No Ormskirk service on a Sunday. Saturday perhaps?

Apart from the unit cost, there's the small matter of platforming at Preston. The Colne service arrives at xx20/21 whilst the Blackpool South service departs at xx35/36.

There isn't a through platform free for a unit to sit around for that long, at least not in every hour of the day. So you'd need to do a shunt to free up the platform, which is never ideal and has a cost in terms of traincrew too.

Or you tweak one branch or the other. Colne-Blackpool S was a through service for long enough (probably easier to tweak the Blackpool side as it has less interaction with the main WCML). Ormskirk can (and usually did) run from 3C and have its long layover there and/or at Ormskirk as appropriate, though obviously there are only limited timings possible because you've either got to pass on the WCML (as they do now) or at Rufford.

 

[Watershed]

Or you tweak one branch or the other. Colne-Blackpool S was a through service for long enough (probably easier to tweak the Blackpool side as it has less interaction with the main WCML). Ormskirk can (and usually did) run from 3C and have its long layover there and/or at Ormskirk as appropriate, though obviously there are only limited timings possible because you've either got to pass on the WCML (as they do now) or at Rufford.

Oh absolutely, it won't be insoluble. But it's not as easy as simply saying "bung them together".

As soon as you retime the train in the Blackpool-bound direction you also have to retime it by the same amount on the way back - as with the Ormskirk branch, a round trip from Kirkham to South is just under an hour, so there's no scope for sitting around at South. That then means you're arriving back into Preston earlier, and so you've simply shifted the problem to the equivalent move in the other direction.

If you're willing to accept an increase in journey times, you could simply have a long dwell at Kirkham on the way to South. Platform 1 there is an easy place to shove a unit out of the way. But that's hardly going to be very popular - and it would often be quicker to take the following train and change at Kirkham.

 

[robbeech]

Aren’t Blackpool South and North normally interchangeable in terms of ticket acceptance?

Even if they were it’s unlikely BPN staff would accept them.

Ticket gates at Blackpool North

And sniper points just inside.


Any reasonable member of staff would allow you to use whichever route was most sensible during a timetable reduction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any reasonable member of staff would allow you to use whichever route was most sensible during a timetable reduction.

Hence why it might be worth asking the booking office if they will endorse the ticket.

Or if avoiding stress is more important than money or waiting an hour, a single from Preston to Blackpool North is £8. You shouldn't have to pay that, but offset against £2.60 for the tram unless you're going to walk 2 miles it might be worth it to you. (I was going to suggest one from Kirkham at £5.90, but that might get awkward with regard to it being an Advance, and would require you to take a train that stops there).

I'm inclined to say that if I wasn't in a rush I'd go to the pub and take an hour's Delay Repay (or 30 minutes if you're unlucky and it arrives at South a bit early).

 

[30907]

Hence why it might be worth asking the booking office if they will endorse the ticket.

Or if avoiding stress is more important than money or waiting an hour, a single from Preston to Blackpool North is £8. You shouldn't have to pay that, but offset against £2.60 for the tram unless you're going to walk 2 miles it might be worth it to you. (I was going to suggest one from Kirkham at £5.90, but that might get awkward with regard to it being an Advance, and would require you to take a train that stops there).

I'm inclined to say that if I wasn't in a rush I'd go to the pub and take an hour's Delay Repay (or 30 minutes if you're unlucky and it arrives at South a bit early).

Just to clarify: the OP wishes to travel from Blackpool not to it!
The general advice remains the same.
I would travel early and enjoy the delights of Preston - or buy an Advance from BPN at £3.80 on a train of your choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to clarify: the OP wishes to travel from Blackpool not to it!
The general advice remains the same.
I would travel early and enjoy the delights of Preston - or buy an Advance from BPN at £3.80 on a train of your choice.

Sorry, don't know why I read it wrong!

Just a clarification, then, Delay Repay would not be applicable unless the OP travelled later (is there even a connection to Euston off the later one?)

 

[D.K.TAYLOR]

Do the gate staff at Blackpool North come round to letting you through the gate with a South ticket I would not hold my breath

 

[gray1404]

I would either travel an hour later and claim delay repay. There is a possibility you may only get 30 minutes delay repay if the next train arrives in Euston early.

Or you could refund the existing advance ticket for the cancelled service and purchase a new advance ticket from Blackpool North while they are still cheap enough.

 

[robbeech]

I can fully understand why you might ask here and it’s worth doing. But what do Northern say?

 

[P Binnersley]

Northern say

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

Advance train tickets

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

So your options seem to be:
i) Ask Northern to allow travel on the 16:12 with your ticket; or a suitable train from Blackpool North
ii) Refund (free of charge) and rebook - but you will loose the through journey protection (plenty of advances still available).
iii) Travel on 18:12 and claim delay-repay.

 

[gray1404]

OP does not need to ask nobody full permission to travel on the train before the one that has been cancelled, they are entitled to do this under the circumstances defacto.

If they refund and rebook their tickets between Blackpool and Preston, they will not lose the through journey protection provided they purchase the ticket before travel starts and allow at least the minimum connection time at Preston

 

[philthetube]

That's a permanent extension because the 5-unit cycle was grossly unreliable and resulted in delays and cancellations all over the place. I'm not quite sure why the two lines aren't just separated back up with two units dedicated to Ormskirk as was the case in the 1990s, as that would keep things neater with less knock-on delay, as the only real reason for doing it in the first place was to allow Ormskirk to be upped to hourly without using an extra unit by taking some of the slack out of Blackpool-Colne.

(Or was that going from 4 to 5 units? If so, why is there a two-hour layover in Preston? The extra unit made it an hour and a bit rather than only a few minutes)

I wish they would, I would be able to use the service again instead of having to drive

 

[Deafdoggie]

Do the gate staff at Blackpool North come round to letting you through the gate with a South ticket I would not hold my breath

They aren't keen on letting you through with a valid North ticket!