Blackpool No.1 bus frequency reductions are causing pressure on Blackpool trams

[LOL The Irony]

in my view £2.60 is decent value for a tram journey of anything more than walking distance, and an absolute steal for the longer trips that can be done on the system. And £15.50 for a week of unlimited travel on trams and buses amazing!

So why try "fixing" it then?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

No 1 bus has a different route through Fleetwood, and goes much closer to Fleetwood FC, and calls at Affinity.
Trams have 38 stops, Bus has 67 stops. (Trams should be faster but not really)
Bus is therefore much better for those with any walking difficulties, etc.
Trams are no fun when in sardine /sandwich mode. 74 seated and 75+ standing.
Even more uncomfortable if driver keeps notching power up and down or in cruise control.
Changing buses - often you have to walk several streets to change. No central bus station.
Town centre would benefit with a smaller bus travelling from North pier - Springfield Rd, North station yard - St Johns square (Church St) - Coronation St - Central Pier - Tower etc then North Pier. Or vice versa

 

[philthetube]

10 journey ticket for bus and tram £20.80. £2.08 per trip. there really is not much difference between bus and tram fares, unless one is free.

Which the tram isn't to bus pass holders.

It is to those living in Blackpool/Fleetwood, which are the main concern of the councils of these towns

 

[Bletchleyite]

No 1 bus has a different route through Fleetwood, and goes much closer to Fleetwood FC, and calls at Affinity.

Between the tram and the 14 Fleetwood is very well covered.

Fleetwood FC is very near to Stanley Road tramstop and will better be able to deal with cramming in footy crowds.

The 1 does have an extension to Freeport (is this Affinity now?) but that could be put onto the 14 instead. Most people would just walk from the tram which is a short distance.

The map at https://images.blackpooltransport.com/2017-11/Blackpool Transport Network Map.pdf shows nicely just how much of a wasteful duplication of other stuff the 1 is.

 

[Busaholic]

It is to those living in Blackpool/Fleetwood, which are the main concern of the councils of these towns

And quite right too.

 

[Tramfan]

Between the tram and the 14 Fleetwood is very well covered.

Fleetwood FC is very near to Stanley Road tramstop and will better be able to deal with cramming in footy crowds.

The 1 does have an extension to Freeport (is this Affinity now?) but that could be put onto the 14 instead. Most people would just walk from the tram which is a short distance.

The map at https://images.blackpooltransport.com/2017-11/Blackpool Transport Network Map.pdf shows nicely just how much of a wasteful duplication of other stuff the 1 is.

The 14 used to go to Freeport/Affinity a few years ago, but they swapped the termini of the two routes round

 

[davehsug]

And quite right too.

Well yes, of course. Never forget though, that if Blackpool wasn't such a large resort, the trams would never have survived in the first place. It was the revenue from them that largely paid for Blackpool's excellent bus service in the decades after the war. Coupled with the fact that there was no real alterntive to the tram route for transporting people between major attractions spread over several miles. Of course the service should be run in the interests of local people, but you wouldn't be getting 5 trams an hour between Blackpool and Fleetwood to serve purely local needs.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

IMO Blackpool trams promenade route survived because most of it has its own road! The other routes were closed.

 

[Towers]

Is there a reason that BT appear reluctant to get the 'fat doors' out and into service, having spent to much converting them in the first place? Are they worried that it'll damage their 'shiny new tramway' image?

An observation on the bus driver shortages; Blackpool is frequently stated as being one of, if not the, most deprived towns in the UK. It's both surprising and a little concerning that even in that context, a job which provides security, fully paid training and a relatively decent wage still cannot attract anywhere enough takers. Is there a particularly low proportion of non-drivers among Blackpools lower skilled worker demographic, perhaps? Just seems odd, you'd imagine that there'd be a queue around the block if there are so many local folk in need of decent employment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read somewhere that they aren't fully compliant with accessibility regulations, but surely an option would be to run them as "duplicates" directly behind an accessible tram, and so an exemption should be viable on those grounds?

 

[chorleyjeff]

Of course anywhere other than Blackpool, the tramway would have been ripped up long ago, and the route 1 bus would have been gradually upgraded and would now be a much higher frequency corridor - maybe every 10 minutes. But if they aren't going to do that, and it is a given that trams will be running even if they are more expensive to provide, is it not more efficient to have as many people on them as possible so that the per-passenger-journey operating cost is lower?

(Don't forget that even if providing a tram is more expensive than providing a bus, providing both will be more expensive than just the tram)

But there are only enough drivers for an hourly bus service.

 

[randyrippley]

The answer seems obvious
Close the tramline and convert all the staff to bus drivers. Would be more flexible, give more drivers, and save on maintenance costs.
If the stories are true about the trams and the depot being allergic to sea water, then you'd also save on the impending remedial repair costs.
Also would release space to improve the road network, perhaps a dedicated bus lane?

 

[philthetube]

The answer seems obvious
Close the tramline and convert all the staff to bus drivers. Would be more flexible, give more drivers, and save on maintenance costs.
If the stories are true about the trams and the depot being allergic to sea water, then you'd also save on the impending remedial repair costs.
Also would release space to improve the road network, perhaps a dedicated bus lane?

This assumes that one bus replacing one tram is enough, without the 1's running either, and that all tram drivers would want to go on the be bus drivers, many do it because they enjoy the job and would not consider bus driving, and many would be too old for the training to be worth while.

1 bus driver with bus can serve a max of 70 people, probably less in Blackpool because of large numbers of elderly. you would need 4 buses at peak to replace one tram, the drivers released would only provide a fraction of this.


then you have pollution and road congestion to consider.

 

[Tramfan]

I read somewhere that they aren't fully compliant with accessibility regulations, but surely an option would be to run them as "duplicates" directly behind an accessible tram, and so an exemption should be viable on those grounds?

I always remember one particular tram journey I made one summer from North Shore into Blackpool, where we stopped at somewhere like Gynn Square, and a passenger on the platform waiting with someone in a wheelchair began shouting at the conductor that they'd been waiting nearly an hour and been unable to board a tram due to them all being full and not stopping. Had the B Fleet been out clearing the crowds, these passengers would have probably been able to board the first Flexity that turned up!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The answer seems obvious
Close the tramline and convert all the staff to bus drivers. Would be more flexible, give more drivers, and save on maintenance costs.
If the stories are true about the trams and the depot being allergic to sea water, then you'd also save on the impending remedial repair costs.
Also would release space to improve the road network, perhaps a dedicated bus lane?

...wins the prize for the stupidest idea on the Forum today. Congratulations!

What you are proposing would be a bit like replacing Metrolink or Merseyrail with buses. It is well used, it is not a toy like the old system sort of was.

 

[philthetube]

I always remember one particular tram journey I made one summer from North Shore into Blackpool, where we stopped at somewhere like Gynn Square, and a passenger on the platform waiting with someone in a wheelchair began shouting at the conductor that they'd been waiting nearly an hour and been unable to board a tram due to them all being full and not stopping. Had the B Fleet been out clearing the crowds, these passengers would have probably been able to board the first Flexity that turned up!

This was happening daily last summer from the start of school hols through to October half term.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They've got the converted Balloons for that purpose - need to get them out of the shed!

It's a shame they didn't order modern double-decker trams instead of the generic ones they went for...but that's probably for a Speculative topic!

(dons tin hat, runs for cover!)

 

[philthetube]

It's a shame they didn't order modern double-decker trams instead of the generic ones they went for...but that's probably for a Speculative topic!

(dons tin hat, runs for cover!)

They could have gone longer.

how many conductors for a double deck tram?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They could have gone longer.

how many conductors for a double deck tram?

How many conductors do the current modern trams use? How about the double deck ones in Hong-Kong? Surely you just need one, unless you're running them coupled together?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame they didn't order modern double-decker trams instead of the generic ones they went for...but that's probably for a Speculative topic!

(dons tin hat, runs for cover!)

Is there such thing as a modern double deck tram?

I'd have gone for a Sheffield style one with the seated central section for people doing the whole journey (as many do) but the ones they've got aren't bad.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there such thing as a modern double deck tram?

I'd have gone for a Sheffield style one with the seated central section for people doing the whole journey (as many do) but the ones they've got aren't bad.

I assume Hong-Kong's trams are fairly modern, more-so than the Balloons anyway. There shouldn't be anything preventing one being designed in any case. Didn't Blackpool Tramways rebuild some Balloon cars in the 1980s with a more modern (for the time) bodyshell and different door positions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume Hong-Kong's trams are fairly modern, more-so than the Balloons anyway. There shouldn't be anything preventing one being designed in any case. Didn't Blackpool Tramways rebuild some Balloon cars in the 1980s with a more modern (for the time) bodyshell and different door positions?

Yes, they've done all sorts of rebuilds, including the more recent (and quite ugly) one that puts a sticky-out door "pod" on them to allow use at the new platforms.

 

[philthetube]

How many conductors do the current modern trams use? How about the double deck ones in Hong-Kong? Surely you just need one, unless you're running them coupled together?

Usually 2 through the central area, one out of town, although two for the whole route if available, they are needed for revenue and also to monitor wheelchair numbers,

when operating with 1 conductor it is not expected that all fares will be collected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Usually 2 through the central area, one out of town, although two for the whole route if available, they are needed for revenue and also to monitor wheelchair numbers,

when operating with 1 conductor it is not expected that all fares will be collected.

I wonder if they could viably reduce to one if they implemented tap in tap out contactless (and potentially solve the driver issue by training some of them as drivers)? In a place like Blackpool with a lot of older visitors they are probably worth having, but you'd probably not need two.

 

[Andyh82]

I wonder if they could viably reduce to one if they implemented tap in tap out contactless (and potentially solve the driver issue by training some of them as drivers)? In a place like Blackpool with a lot of older visitors they are probably worth having, but you'd probably not need two.

With lots of tourists who won’t know the rules as they are infrequent users, and busy trams, and often lots of kids in tow, the best method to get people to pay will be an actual person rather than any sort of technology

Double deck trams would have been nice, but do any of the European manufacturers of trams build one, I expect not.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With lots of tourists who won’t know the rules as they are infrequent users, and busy trams, and often lots of kids in tow, the best method to get people to pay will be an actual person rather than any sort of technology

Double deck trams would have been nice, but do any of the European manufacturers of trams build one, I expect not.

My suggestion of double deck trams was slightly tongue-in-cheek, though as a transport nerd I'd love to have seen it happen.
That said, if 2 conductors are used in the busiest sections anyway, I doubt you'd need more than that for a double decker tram. Unless they were both double deck and articulated, which is probably a step too far even within this rather speculative idea.

 

[MDB1images]

Like a lot of Lancashire operators the apparent driver shortages have hit hard resulting in virtually all the local services seeing schedules cut back so no surprise the 1 has succumbed to this.
A query is what are the Council /Company actively doing to address the shortages?

In a town that needs full time over seasonal employment perhaps a bit of joined up thinking is needed to push these as good jobs and upskill people and help solve these shortages.

 

[Skymonster]

Sounds like more capacity is needed, then!

They've got the converted Balloons for that purpose - need to get them out of the shed!

They’re not really using the Flexity fleet as fully as they could. Frequency was improved from 15 minutes to 12 minutes fairly recently, but even so only 11 out of the 18 vehicles are needed for normal service. OK two of the seven ”spare” are long-term broken (although one is finally getting close to coming back), but given the relaxed utilisation there’s hardly been an urgent imperative to get those two working again. The extension to Blackpool North will increase fleet utilisation a bit that’s not due for completion until next year. In the mean time, upping the peak frequency again might go some way to address some of the capacity issues - but one of the issues that delayed the last frequency uptick was having sufficient trained drivers.

 

[philthetube]

I wonder if they could viably reduce to one if they implemented tap in tap out contactless (and potentially solve the driver issue by training some of them as drivers)? In a place like Blackpool with a lot of older visitors they are probably worth having, but you'd probably not need two.

It would not need to be on/off as there is only one fare, however, on a multi door vehicle I suspect that revenue loss would be huge unless investment was made in a large team of inspectors to be able to blitz a tram, doable in London or possibly Manchester, but not Blackpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would not need to be on/off as there is only one fare, however, on a multi door vehicle I suspect that revenue loss would be huge unless investment was made in a large team of inspectors to be able to blitz a tram, doable in London or possibly Manchester, but not Blackpool.

With 4 doors per side the team would need to be 4 (or 3 if the conductor on board joined in). I guess whether it's worth it depends on whether there are more than 4 diagrams with doubled up conductors.