Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Llama]

So will this be the end of using Class 185s on the Bolton line as it could end up disrupting other MUs that need to use the variations to speed limits to keep time (presumably starting in May)?

Timings won't change until at least May even if stock is used (158, 319, 350) which can take advantage of the higher permissible speeds until the timings are adjusted. Guards will have to check their watches a bit more often.

 

[jonesy3001]

Northern gets around 50 2nd hand units and is still short. Hires 3 185s off TPE then hires 170s with drivers to TPE for Leeds Huddersfield.
Strange old world.
K

Don't forget most of the units will be around the UK having PRM mods done, probably explains why they're short of units and when the Bolton line is given the OK from the ORR it'll be EMUs anyway apart from the wigan line.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern gets around 50 2nd hand units and is still short. Hires 3 185s off TPE then hires 170s with drivers to TPE for Leeds Huddersfield.
Strange old world.
K

Northern actually hires two 185s from TPE. The diagrams they are used on include Barrow - Manchester Airport workings, which are pathed for 100mph units on the WCML between Preston and Carnforth. Until the 195s are in traffic, the only other units Northern could use are the 170s. But these are based east of the Pennines, so it makes more sense for Northern to hire one out to TPE for the Leeds - Huddersfield shuttle.

Consequently Northern will be continuing to operate 185s on the Bolton line until the May timetable change.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Northern actually hires two 185s from TPE. The diagrams they are used on include Barrow - Manchester Airport workings, which are pathed for 100mph units on the WCML between Preston and Carnforth. Until the 195s are in traffic, the only other units Northern could use are the 170s. But these are based east of the Pennines, so it makes more sense for Northern to hire one out to TPE for the Leeds - Huddersfield shuttle.

Consequently Northern will be continuing to operate 185s on the Bolton line until the May timetable change.

Also some west side Northern drivers are trained on 185's and some TPE drivers are trained on 170's.

 

[CAF397]

some TPE drivers are trained on 170's

As far as I know there should be no TPE driver with current 170 knowledge, as the last 170 working was in 2015 or 2016?

The hired in 170s from Northern come with a Northern driver, but a TPE driver has to be rostered to the train as per the agreement with ASLEF that all TPE trains have a TPE driver allocated to it .

 

[ivanhoe]

As far as I know there should be no TPE driver with current 170 knowledge, as the last 170 working was in 2015 or 2016?

The hired in 170s from Northern come with a Northern driver, but a TPE driver has to be rostered to the train as per the agreement with ASLEF that all TPE trains have a TPE driver allocated to it .

Surely the train does not have two drivers, does it? What does the rostered TPE driver do?

 

[Greybeard33]

Surely the train does not have two drivers, does it? What does the rostered TPE driver do?

Previously explained on another thread as follows:

The agreement reached between TPE and Northern to operate this service is as follows.

The 170 will be crewed by a Leeds-based Northern driver (who signs both the traction and the route) and a TPE guard. In addition a TPE driver must be aboard the train. I undestand this is so as to guarantee no loss of work for TPE drivers.

Incidentally it has also been agreed that if required by lack of platform capacity at Huddersfield the unit will run ECS to Marsden from where it will return to Huddersfield. The Northern driver will be route conducted by the TPE driver during this move.

 

[ivanhoe]

I

Previously explained on another thread as follows:

f the rostered TPE driver was sick or no replacement available, would the service run?

 

[driver9000]

As far as I know there should be no TPE driver with current 170 knowledge, as the last 170 working was in 2015 or 2016?

The hired in 170s from Northern come with a Northern driver, but a TPE driver has to be rostered to the train as per the agreement with ASLEF that all TPE trains have a TPE driver allocated to it .

The TPE Driver is also rostered to the train as it will revert to 185 operation before long too. This has a benefit of not having to alter the jobs around again when it does.

 

[PN27]

Returning to the Manchester- Preston line, the 75mph TSR reminder boards at each end of Adlington station have been removed.

 

[cle]

Is there any indication on journey time savings once line speeds are upped, and the right stock is used?

 

[bengley]

So will this be the end of using Class 185s on the Bolton line as it could end up disrupting other MUs that need to use the variations to speed limits to keep time (presumably starting in May)?

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your post, but 185s will be able to take advantage of the higher line speeds. They can't run at SP (sprinter) speeds but there's nothing to stop them running at MU speeds.

 

[Eccles1983]

The sectional appendix stops them.

Or at least used to. 185s cannot run at any lettered speeds (dmu,sp,mu)

 

[Railrover700]

Is there any indication on journey time savings once line speeds are upped, and the right stock is used?

Provisional TPE timings Oxford Rd to Preston are typically 32 minutes after the May timetable change.
This one shows 31 minutes: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00586/2019/06/19/advanced

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your post, but 185s will be able to take advantage of the higher line speeds. They can't run at SP (sprinter) speeds but there's nothing to stop them running at MU speeds.

My understanding was that 185s are not permitted to run at MU speeds.

 

[bengley]

Provisional TPE timings Oxford Rd to Preston are typically 32 minutes after the May timetable change.
This one shows 31 minutes: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00586/2019/06/19/advanced



My understanding was that 185s are not permitted to run at MU speeds.

Pretty sure it's only sprinter speeds they can't run at.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Don't forget most of the units will be around the UK having PRM mods done, probably explains why they're short of units and when the Bolton line is given the OK from the ORR it'll be EMUs anyway apart from the wigan line.

And Blackburn trains.

 

[Llama]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your post, but 185s will be able to take advantage of the higher line speeds. They can't run at SP (sprinter) speeds but there's nothing to stop them running at MU speeds.

Class 185s are specifically prohibited from running at MU/DMU speeds as per the sectional appendices.

 

[bengley]

Class 185s are specifically prohibited from running at MU/DMU speeds as per the sectional appendices.

So they are. That's daft.

(I sign 185s but don't sign any routes with MU speeds, only SP speeds)

 

[edwin_m]

So they are. That's daft.

When the "MU" differential restriction was invented, someone in NR/Railtrack/BR must have listed a set of maximum limits that the train would meet, and these were used to determine whether the infrastructure could support the higher speed. If the 185 doesn't comply with one of these (probably axle load) then it can't safely run at MU speed unless all the infrastructure on the route in question is reviewed to determine if it complies with a different set of limits. Just because it looks like a multiple unit and quacks like a multiple unit, in this case doesn't actually mean it is a multiple unit...

 

[Senex]

There's an interesting RSSB research-paper here: https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and.../research-brief-T996.pdf. It's focused on the SP speeds, but some of what it says is of more general interest in connection with the whole differential restrictions scene. As to the 185s, does anyone yet know the full story of how TPE came to acquire trains that could not exploit the full potential of the routes on which they were to run? And at the time they were bought, could the power/weight ration required along with the quality of passenger environment wanted have been provided in vehicles that would have had SP or MU speed potential?

 

[42626]

There's an interesting RSSB research-paper here: https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and.../research-brief-T996.pdf.

Can you check that link - gives a 404.

 

[Trapper]

Can you check that link - gives a 404.

Try https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and-innovation/research-brief-T996.pdf

 

[42626]

Try https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and-innovation/research-brief-T996.pdf

Thanks!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the "MU" differential restriction was invented, someone in NR/Railtrack/BR must have listed a set of maximum limits that the train would meet, and these were used to determine whether the infrastructure could support the higher speed. If the 185 doesn't comply with one of these (probably axle load) then it can't safely run at MU speed unless all the infrastructure on the route in question is reviewed to determine if it complies with a different set of limits. Just because it looks like a multiple unit and quacks like a multiple unit, in this case doesn't actually mean it is a multiple unit...

It's interesting that classes 175/180/22x, all heavy units, are allowed to use MU differentials (and are classified as HSTs).
Oddly class 350s, which are just electric 185s, are able to use MU speeds (and can travel at 110mph).
390s are also not allowed to use MU speeds, which will limit their speed on Salford-Euxton via Bolton (but not via Golborne).
The new Northern/TPE rolling stock has yet to be classified, of course.

 

[CAF397]

There is a published *blanket* ESR for electric traction only, which commenced at 00.01 this morning.

Where is it published? My depot has not received this notice and we will work electric trains one they are allowed to run.

 

[Mollman]

If Northern still hire in 185s from TPE from May it is likely that they won't be on Bolton line as the Barrow trains *should* be diverted via Wigan.

 

[driver9000]

If Northern still hire in 185s from TPE from May it is likely that they won't be on Bolton line as the Barrow trains *should* be diverted via Wigan.

The hire is supposed to end in May.

 

[Greybeard33]

Oddly class 350s, which are just electric 185s, are able to use MU speeds (and can travel at 110mph).

350s are far from being just electric 185s. They have shorter carriages, without heavy diesel engines slung beneath. A 350 has a total weight of 176t spread over 16 axles. A 185 has 169t over only 12 axles, with a max axle load of 18.5t.

 

[superkev]

It's over a month since the wires went live. I'm beginning to wonder if electric trains with passengers will ever run.
K

 

[Llama]

Where is it published? My depot has not received this notice and we will work electric trains one they are allowed to run.

It's been in our late notice case for several days now.