Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Senex]

I'm not sure you can read "via Golborne" into what is said in the TfGM document, it just says Manchester-Scotland (plus Liverpool-Glasgow).
I would also think that if TPE runs via Golborne, the Northern Cumbria service will have to run via Bolton (ie the reverse of what was originally planned).

Why would TPE want to use the longer and slower route (unless they really don't care about journey-time between Manchester and Scotland)? I can see why other TOCs might want them off the Bolton route because of the possible demands of a fast service on capacity, but no reason why they might want to go along with that.

 

[Ianno87]

Why would TPE want to use the longer and slower route (unless they really don't care about journey-time between Manchester and Scotland)? I can see why other TOCs might want them off the Bolton route because of the possible demands of a fast service on capacity, but no reason why they might want to go along with that.

It might theoretically come down to a track access decision... if TPE were to bid non-stop via Bolton, but the only way NR could accommodate all bids was to offer them a path via Golborne, then they'd have to accept it.

If they disputed it, they'd essentially have to demonstrate to Access Disputes Resolution Committee that the disbenefit of a slight journey time extension to their business outweighed that to Northern's business of being able to run an entire hourly service (potentially). Which would be a long shot.

 

[deltic08]

I'm not sure you can read "via Golborne" into what is said in the TfGM document, it just says Manchester-Scotland (plus Liverpool-Glasgow).
I would also think that if TPE runs via Golborne, the Northern Cumbria service will have to run via Bolton (ie the reverse of what was originally planned).

What do you regard as Northern Cumbria services from Manchester?

 

[themiller]

What do you regard as Northern Cumbria services from Manchester?

Services from Manchester going to Cumbria operated by Northern?

 

[deltic08]

Services from Manchester going to Cumbria operated by Northern?

I thought you meant the likes of Whitehaven and Workington were to get services from Manchester. I read it as Northern Cumbria not Northern services to Cumbria. Pity.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm not sure you can read "via Golborne" into what is said in the TfGM document, it just says Manchester-Scotland (plus Liverpool-Glasgow).
I would also think that if TPE runs via Golborne, the Northern Cumbria service will have to run via Bolton (ie the reverse of what was originally planned).

Currently both the TPE Manchester - Scotland and the Northern Airport - Blackpool run via Golborne, while the Northern Airport - Preston/Barrow runs via Bolton. So it could just be a straight swap of the two Northern services. If the Cumbria services were to run via Bolton, the Rail North paper would have listed that as a change from the timetable Northern originally bid for May 2018.

It might theoretically come down to a track access decision... if TPE were to bid non-stop via Bolton, but the only way NR could accommodate all bids was to offer them a path via Golborne, then they'd have to accept it.

If they disputed it, they'd essentially have to demonstrate to Access Disputes Resolution Committee that the disbenefit of a slight journey time extension to their business outweighed that to Northern's business of being able to run an entire hourly service (potentially). Which would be a long shot.

The Rail North paper says that the TPE bid for May 2019 includes "continuation of existing Manchester to Scotland services". I suppose that, if they were rerouted via Bolton, but remained non-stop between Piccadilly and Preston, with no change to timings, that could be regarded as continuation?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do you regard as Northern Cumbria services from Manchester?

Services from Manchester going to Cumbria operated by Northern?

Manchester-Barrow/Windermere.
Are they not in Cumbria?

 

[deltic08]

Manchester-Barrow/Windermere.
Are they not in Cumbria?

I have already explained the confusion in ambiguity in #8614. Now who is trying to be clever. There is no benefit to the discussion in your posting the bleeding obvious.

When I lived in Cumberland, Barrow was in Lancashire and Windermere was in Westmoreland. Old habits etc.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I have already explained the confusion in ambiguity in #8614. Now who is trying to be clever. There is no benefit to the discussion in your posting the bleeding obvious.

When I lived in Cumberland, Barrow was in Lancashire and Windermere was in Westmoreland. Old habits etc.

And they're all in the Danelaw. Let's move on?

 

[Wtloild]

...and stops them getting swamped with short distance Manchester-Bolton passengers!

Once Northern have introduced their 3-car EMUs, congestion will be but a distant memory...apparently

 

[PDG1949]

I'm not sure you can read "via Golborne" into what is said in the TfGM document, it just says Manchester-Scotland (plus Liverpool-Glasgow).

I thought the intention of the Liverpool - Glasgow route was to run via St Helens Central and Wigan North Western

 

[DJH1971]

I thought the intention of the Liverpool - Glasgow route was to run via St Helens Central and Wigan North Western

That's what I also thought.

 

[59CosG95]

GSoP Post 23.1 - updated with Lostock UTX clarification
Manchester Victoria - Preston; State of Play, week beginning 8th October 2018.
All wire runs up! LIVE (from Euxton Jct to Buckshaw Parkway; and from Windsor Bridge South Jct to Ordsall Lane Jct/Deal St Jct) as of 1st October.
As wiring is not completed between Windsor Bridge South Jct & Buckshaw Parkway, testing has been postponed.
All mileages from Manchester Victoria. Bridge mileages are approximated where noted.

1. Man Vic Station (Platforms 3-6) - Man Vic West Jct - Deal Street Jct; 0m 0ch to 0m 32ch
Fully wired and energised 2013-15.
(N.B. Platforms 1 & 2 at Man Vic have now been bedanglied; more masts may still need to be installed at the east side of Man Vic before wires can go up over all lines; however this is not considered as part of this programme.

2. Deal Street Jct - Windsor Bridge South Jct; 0m 32ch to 1m 46ch
Fully wired and LIVE as of 1/10/18. Wires overlap into the CEMEX sidings (Hope Street). At Salford Central, the westbound (Down) platform has had RSC ducting installed at shin height.
Protruding roof beams were also cut back to facilitate the addition of wires. With Salford Central now wired, all wires are up from Manchester Victoria & Manchester Piccadilly to Euxton Jct.

3. Windsor Bridge South Jct - Windsor Bridge North Jct (inc. Salford Crescent); 1m 46ch to 1m 70ch
All lines through Salford Crescent are wired; all wires east and south of Windsor Bridge South Jct are LIVE (as of 1/10/18). P1 still has temporary fixings.
Repairs to the wooden fence on the eastern side have/are taken/taking place.
The crossovers at Agecroft South Jct, and Windsor Bridge North Jct are also fully wired. Wires are also up on the overruns along the Atherton Line.

4. Windsor Bridge North Jct - Bolton (South End); 1m 70ch to 10m 50ch
Both lines are FULLY wired from Windsor Bridge North Jct to Lever St Jct; wires continue through Bolton P3 & P4 towards Lostock & the WCML at Euxton Jct.
At Clifton, Drainage manhole modules are awaiting installation; temporary covers are over their future homes. Temporary fixings are still evident at Clifton.
Bridge MVE1 27B (immediately NW of the M60 overbridge) is fully erected, but unopened, and work the walkway is not yet finished.
The Platform 5 Line is fully wired (C&C) from the points at Weston St to Orlando St Bridge; C&C wires have now gone up through P5, under Newport St bridge to a Tensorex drum nr Morrisons (mainly on temp. fittings).
South of Lever Street footbridge, the Up Line now has ATF wires installed.

5. Bolton Station; 10m 50ch
All masts in the station area are now in place. Earth wires now in. Canopies look complete, and platforms now fully open (i.e. no temp. fencing in sight).
Platform 1: Wires now up through the platform, though mainly on temporary fixings. It is assumed they continue onto the Blackburn overrun, parallel to their comrades on P3.
Platform 2: Line is fully wired (C&C) from the points at Weston St to the SSA (Self-Supporting Anchor - aka "the wicketkeeper"). Insulators have yet to be installed on the wicketkeeper, and most fixings are still temporary. Buffers look finished.
Platform 3 (Up Bolton): Wired from Orlando St Bridge, through the station, and onwards to Lostock & the WCML. The majority of fixings used are permanent (some are still temporary). Blackburn Line overrun now installed.
Platform 4 (Down Bolton): Wired from Weston Street through P4 and onwards to Lostock & the WCML.
Platform 5: Cantilever arms swung into position. C&C wires have now gone up through P5, under Newport St bridge to a Tensorex drum nr Morrisons. Shin-high ducting is now installed.

6. Bolton (North End) - Lostock (South End); 10m 50ch to 13m 52ch
Both the Up (P3) & Down (P4) Bolton Lines have been wired from Deal St/Ordsall Lane Jcts, through Bolton station, past Lostock ATF Sectioning Station, over Lostock Jct and through Lostock Station to the existing wires at Golf Course Footbridge, thence continuing to the WCML.
C&C wires have now gone up through P5, under Newport St bridge to a Tensorex drum nr Morrisons.
The crossover NW of Newport Street has not been wired yet.
Between the 2nd & 3rd bridges NW of Newport St (the unknown bridge & Dawes St), the mast in photo A732m has led a chequered life, being assembled, dismantled and then re-assembled! It has now been reinstated parallel to the two bridges it was installed between, and already bears the wires on the Down Bolton (temporary fixings, AFAIK).
Cable ducting troughs laid in the Down Side Cess between Bolton Station, past Newport Street, under Soho Street, Black Horse St & New St, and through Bullfield Tunnel.
The overrun along the line to Blackburn (as far as Bradshawgate Tunnel) has now been wired from P3; they have yet to reach there from P1.
Earth wire up on the Down side west of Moor St Tunnel.

Between Moor Lane & Lostock, Earth wires have already been strung.
Autotransformer wires now largely up between Moor Lane & Mayor St. Bridges, and between Lostock & Ladybridge (on both lines); they have now gone under Dean Clough Bridge & the Ladybridge on both sides.
A UTX has been installed in the "vee" in Lostock Jct; this now takes the ATF wires for both routes at Lostock Jct.
Most (if not all) wires are now up over Lostock Jct itself.
All masts now up on the Wigan overlap; earth wires now up too, in varying lengths on both sides. C&C wires also up on the overlap on both lines until the Limit of Wiring. Some dangly arms and all the termination insulators have not yet been installed.

7. Lostock Station; 13m 52ch
Switchgear box delivered 6th April '18. Over the August Bank Holiday Weekend, the two Autotransformers (AT1 & AT2) were delivered.
Both Preston Lines wired through the station to connect with the existing wires north of "Golf Course" footbridge. One wire run through the station still has temporary fixings.
Platform extension/resurfacing work complete on the Down platform (fully) and the Up platform (NW of the station bridge); work on the Up platform still ongoing.
ATF wires are in through the UTXs around the station; works are now presumed finished as the 4 drums of wire are now AWOL. (NB: ATF wires are confirmed only for the Preston lines; not sure if they were ever planned to go to Wigan. The UTX there may be future-proofing.)
The arrangements at Lostock were designed to support the electrification to Wigan, so the UTX should be sized to take four feeder cables to the proposed neutral section located towards Westhoughton. Two feeders for each track, one each side of the NS. Wigan-Lostock has no AF, classic boosterless only. (Thanks to Joseph_Locke for the clarification)

8. Lostock (North End) - Euxton Jct; 13m 52ch to 25m 31ch
Two more UTXs have been installed in the "vee" between the Preston & Wigan lines, to the north of Lostock station; one takes the ATF wires for the Wigan Line, the other does the same for the Preston Line.
Immediately north of Lostock, the closest TTCs to the platforms have now sprouted part of their switchgear kit.
All C&C wires up on both lines from south of Bolton, through Lostock, Horwich, Blackrod & Adlington, over Yarrow Viaduct, through Chorley Station, Chorley Tunnel, the Flying Arches & Buckshaw Parkway to the WCML.
Temp. fixings still evident at Buckshaw Pkwy & Adlington stns. AT & earth wires not always present, but the C&C appears continuous.
On Yarrow Viaduct, the northern portal has now been installed. The Down side Earth wire is also up, but the Down side AT wire is still absent. (It is assumed this is replicated on the Up side.)
AT wires still need installation/remedial work at Station Rd Bridge (Blackrod; B5238; 17m 9ch).
At Railway Rd Bridge (Adlington; 19m 0148yds), AT wires (and some earth wires) still need to be installed.
Within Adlington Station, orangemen were digging ducting trenches for the Earthing bonds for the TTCs on the Up platform.
Orangemen at work on the footpath at the foot of the northern steps of Heath Charnock FB.
Through Chorley Station, all wires (including ATF wires) are installed.
The Buckshaw Parkway crossover is also wired.
Within Buckshaw Pkwy, the registration arms on the footbridge are now in position.

Do let me know if I've missed anything!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

7. Lostock Station; 13m 52ch
"ATF wires are in through the UTXs around the station; works are now presumed finished as the 4 drums of wire are now AWOL. (NB: ATF wires are confirmed only for the Preston lines; not sure if they were ever planned to go to Wigan. The UTX there may be future-proofing.)"

The arrangements at Lostock were designed to support the electrification to Wigan, so the UTX should be sized to take four feeder cables to the neutral section located towards Westhoughton, that isn't there yet. Two feeders for each track, one each side of the NS. Wigan-Lostock as no AF, classic boosterless only

 

[59CosG95]

7. Lostock Station; 13m 52ch
"ATF wires are in through the UTXs around the station; works are now presumed finished as the 4 drums of wire are now AWOL. (NB: ATF wires are confirmed only for the Preston lines; not sure if they were ever planned to go to Wigan. The UTX there may be future-proofing.)"

The arrangements at Lostock were designed to support the electrification to Wigan, so the UTX should be sized to take four feeder cables to the neutral section located towards Westhoughton, that isn't there yet. Two feeders for each track, one each side of the NS. Wigan-Lostock as no AF, classic boosterless only

Ahh, thanks for the clarification @Joseph_Locke; I'll add that in now.

 

[CAF397]

It might theoretically come down to a track access decision... if TPE were to bid non-stop via Bolton, but the only way NR could accommodate all bids was to offer them a path via Golborne, then they'd have to accept it.

If they disputed it, they'd essentially have to demonstrate to Access Disputes Resolution Committee that the disbenefit of a slight journey time extension to their business outweighed that to Northern's business of being able to run an entire hourly service (potentially). Which would be a long shot.

Before the overrun, and May TT farce there was a perfectly valid timetable for TPE via Bolton, and all the other Northern changes.

One would assume once Bolton is wired, and one the May & December 2018 TT changes are introduced in May 2019, that everything will be as it should’ve been in May 2018.

 

[hwl]

Before the overrun, and May TT farce there was a perfectly valid timetable for TPE via Bolton, and all the other Northern changes.

One would assume once Bolton is wired, and one the May & December 2018 TT changes are introduced in May 2019, that everything will be as it should’ve been in May 2018.

Indeed, the Golborne diversion presumably being temporary and expected to avoid all the Bolton closures till now and nothing more.

 

[absolutelymilk]

What is the shortest length platform on the Manchester to Preston (via Bolton) route? What combinations of units will this be able to take?

 

[driver9000]

What is the shortest length platform on the Manchester to Preston (via Bolton) route? What combinations of units will this be able to take?

Clifton, Farnworth, Kearsley and Moses Gate are probably the shortest at 4 cars each. Not sure what the actual lengths are. Blackrod just about held a 180 when Northern had them.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Clifton, Farnworth, Kearsley and Moses Gate are probably the shortest at 4 cars each. Not sure what the actual lengths are. Blackrod just about held a 180 when Northern had them.

Thanks, is there much prospect of lengthening them to six/eight car for doubled up 323/319s? Or could SDO be used there?

 

[thealexweb]

Clifton, Farnworth, Kearsley and Moses Gate are probably the shortest at 4 cars each. Not sure what the actual lengths are. Blackrod just about held a 180 when Northern had them.

During the 2014 Chorley Tunnel blockade six car (3x150) services frequently stopped at Blackrod. These units didn’t have SDO and there was no overhang issues.

 

[LDECRexile]

I travelled by train from Southport to Bolton and the Salfords earlier today. Nothing to add to previous welcome reports of wires up at Bolton. Quite a few temporary fixings at Bolton and Salford Crescent. Bolton Platform 2 wicketkeeper remains uninsulated, as do the terminating wires at the Wigan-bound end of the overlap onto the Wigan line at Chew Moor.

Photos later.

 

[DJH1971]

Hopefully, testing will be happening soon.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks, is there much prospect of lengthening them to six/eight car for doubled up 323/319s? Or could SDO be used there?

Salford Crescent is the limiting platform, only 6-car with junctions both ends so SDO can't be used and and it can't be extended unless the whole station is moved north.

 

[thealexweb]

Salford Crescent is the limiting platform, only 6-car with junctions both ends so SDO can't be used and and it can't be extended unless the whole station is moved north.

I thought it had been extended to 7 cars in length a few years back?

 

[CAF397]

Salford Crescent is a tight 6-car 185 (23m coaches) with a tiny bit of spare room, so should be able to just accommodate 7-car 20m coaches.

I’m sure Blackrod received a platform extension recently (more permanent than the temporary wooden one for the Chorley blockade)

 

[CAF397]

For reference, these are the platform lengths in the current sectional appendix (in metres)

Leyland
Up Slow - 101m
Down Slow - 101m
Up Fast - 100m
Down Fast - 101m

Buckshaw Parkway
Up - 150m
Down - 150m

Chorley
Up - 158m
Down - 150m

Adlington
Up - 127m
Down - 124m

Blackrod
Up - 114m
Down - 114m

Horwich Parkway
Up - 141m
Down - 141m

Lostock
Up - 155m
Dn - 156m

Bolton
P1 - Up 187m / Dn 124m
P2 - 113m
P3 - Up 305 / Dn 222m
P4 - 252m
P5 - 279m

Moses Gate
Up - 79m
Down - 79m

Farnworth
Up - 100m
Down - 100m

Kearsley
Up - 126m
Down - 109m

Clifton
Up - 95m
Down - 95m

Salford Crescent
P1 - 158m
P2 - 153m

 

[Chrisyd]

For reference, these are the platform lengths in the current sectional appendix (in metres)
...
Bolton
P1 - Up 187m / Dn 124m
P2 - 113m
P3 - Up 305 / Dn 222m
P4 - 252m
P5 - 279m
...

Why are the up and down lengths for Bolton P1 & 3 different?

I assume the down line heads towards Manchester.

Not questioning the accuracy of the sectional appendix, just fascinated.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are the up and down lengths for Bolton P1 & 3 different?

I assume the down line heads towards Manchester.

Not questioning the accuracy of the sectional appendix, just fascinated.

Could easily be the signal positions, which will be positioned with respect to whatever the S&C layout is beyond the platforms.

 

[CAF397]

Up to Manchester, Down to Preston.

And yes, the signal position on platform 1 and 3 for different directions.