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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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LNW-GW Joint

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Agreed on both counts - I guess Mother Nature will always have the last word anyway.....

Seconded. I remember BR having trouble with the new Harecastle tunnel in the 1960s.
The rock turned out to be much harder than expected.
If NR can meet the original electrification timescale for the route it won't matter too much.
I know that's a big ask!
 
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ironstone11

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Please don't give up. I for one really appreciate your detailed and knowledgeable contributions.

Questions is easy, answers is hard.

I fully support that. Tunnelling will always be difficult and unpredictable.

The initial stages of the Channel Tunnel were delayed by months, at both ends, due to unforseen ground conditions. This in spite of numerous core samples having been taken.

I seem to remember that a cross section of the geology at Farnworth was published by NR in a press release some while ago.
 

snowball

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I seem to remember that a cross section of the geology at Farnworth was published by NR in a press release some while ago.

I don't remember seeing that. Doesn't sound like the sort of stuff they usually put intheir press releases.
 

snowball

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In looking, I found yet another article about the tunnel re-bore Here on Page 30.

That seems to be the same text and pictures/diagrams as at this link which has already been posted here half a dozen times, plus an extra cross-sectional diagram of the existing two bores and proposed new one, and possibly an extra picture or two.
 

Joseph_Locke

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I believe the release being mentioned is the TATA Steel Projects/NERC/BGS 3D geological survey work for TransPennine North electrification.

It's at http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/509777/ for those interested.

So how is a BGS survey for Leeds to York relevant to a tunnel that is west of Leeds by some considerable number of tens of miles?
 

Philip Phlopp

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So how is a BGS survey for Leeds to York relevant to a tunnel that is west of Leeds by some considerable number of tens of miles?

It's not in any way relevant to the Blackpool to Manchester scheme, but it's the only geology cross section/3D model released this year related to any of the Northern electrification projects. I just assumed the op had mis-remembered what they saw.

I can't find a 3D model of the ground conditions at Farnworth online anywhere - there's nothing on the Network Rail site, nothing on the Ground Engineering site and nothing on the BGS site. The only 3D geology model and cross-section is the TransPennine North model for Leeds to York from February.
 

QueensCurve

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I wonder if they ever considered removing the most of the tunnels and just leaving a bit to support the dual carriageway. Although there is a house adjacent to the dual carriageway almost over the tunnel which would have probably complicated things.

I always expected the Farnworth Tunnel problem would have been solved by demolishing the tunnels and leaving a cutting.

The problem with that is that it would have meant temporarily diverting or closing the A666 then reverting it to it's original route on a new bridge.

Presumably the optioneers thought that reboring the up tunnel would be a shorter, cheaper, or less risky option.

Now that "Fillie" is bogged down in what appears to be agricultural waste, I wonder if they are having second thoughts?

The solution to the present problems appears to involve digging down into the tunnel from above.

Coincidentally, that last tweet URL ends with the string "666".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So we now have a third data point. We believe digging began on the evening of 31 July. The Minister visited on 11 Aug, 10-11 days later, and progress was then said to be 10m. Geeves visited on 26 August and total progress was 45m.

Between the two visits Fillie did 35m in 15 days, an average of 2.666m a day, replicating the number of the A666 above. The lower rate in the first 10 days may have been due to familiarisation and the difficulty of getting through the portal. If she continues at the higher rate, the 225m that remained at Geeves's visit will take about 96 days, which brings us to the end of November. Then there's a few weeks' other work before double track running can resume. 4 weeks was allowed for this in the schedule that was circulted to residents.

Is a blockade of the Bolton area planned over Christmas? Perhaps we should be expecting a resumption of two-track running at the end of that.

Here are the 3 known and some extrapolated data points:-

Date Progress
31/07/2015 0m
11/08/2015 10m
26/08/2015 45m
11/09/2015 71m
25/09/2015 100m
11/10/2015 128m
16/10/2015 138m
11/11/2015 184m
28/11/2015 215m

Fillies-Progress-20150907.jpg

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You missed the important bit:

"Tunnelling started on August 1 and was originally planned to be completed by October 5.
• More than 1,500 soil samples have been taken, each one eight metres in depth, to try and get as accurate an idea as possible of the ground conditions to be encountered, but such testing can only ever act as a guide.
• Fillie, built in Oldham, was expected to be able to tunnel 5.6m to 7m every 24hrs. But because of the very poor ground conditions, she has only been able to bore at a rate of 2.8m / 24hrs.
• Farnworth tunnel is 276m long and, as at September 2, 45m had been excavated since tunnelling started on August 1, leaving a further 231m to go.
• On the assumption that the rate of tunnelling stays as it is now, completion will be December."

I foresaw this kind of difficulty with this scheme and I am not even a civil engineer.

Given that the tunnel is a cut and cover tunnel (which I didn't know, but fits) it would seem to be all the more likely that this kind of problem would be encountered.

After we have know idea what the Manchester Bolton and Burnley Railway would have used as backfill, but it was never going to be brilliant.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Presumably the optioneers thought that reboring the up tunnel would be a shorter, cheaper, or less risky option.

It was the best option given the condition of the two tunnels, particularly the 'up' tunnel, they wouldn't have stood up to track lowering and slab tracking particularly well, would have needed significant ongoing maintenance work and would eventually have needed replacement in any case. It was easier to judge them 'life expired' and see what could be done to deal with it.

It's often easy to forget just how much abuse these tunnels had to put up with when we ran steam trains, with water vapour and condensation, sulphur emissions, soot and all sorts of nasty stuff making quite a mess of the tunnel linings for the best part of 130 years in the case of the older tunnel, and diesels emissions for the remaining 50 years, it all eats away at the tunnel lining. Add huge amounts of vibration from old steam engines with rudimentary suspension and big pistons doing their thing, and you can easily understand why and how the tunnel is in such a bad state.

If you put the business case for a new tunnel into the mixture, the obvious questions come out - what else can this new tunnel do, so it has an increased gauge and allows for a higher linespeed through the area, with a bit of track re-alignment as necessary to support that.

The permanent way people get the old 'down' tunnel to use for access, which will help with engineering works long into the future too.
 
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Trackman

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The Farnworth tunnels were surveyed in the late 70s for electrification, the only conclusion was to take the 'top' off and leave the lines in situ so to speak.
 

LDECRexile

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Joe Callaghan has kindly sent two photos and a film which he shot at Farnworth today. The film seems to have developed a gremlin, though it worked OK on my c: drive and didn't give any error message when loading onto flickr.

Perhaps, with hindsight, I shouldn't have loaded it until I knew for certain that all would be all right in the future. Still, it gives scope for self-righteous gloating.

I'll try reloading it later.

I've wanged the material onto Joe's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345

and onto the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've received the following:

I have heard that Carillion have signed a contract to take over phases 4 and 5 and Volker phase 3. Whilst this is expected, what was a complete surprise to hear is that BB are also pulling out of the design work, with Atkins believed to be taking over. I am unclear if this applies just to phase 4 or the entire north west project.

Please feel free to disseminate as you see fit.

Thank you for keeping us up to date.
 
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Whistler40145

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Much appreciated for the updates.

Let's hope these replacement contractors can easily take over and get the job moving.
 

ian959

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I imagine that Network Rail are more frustrated than anyone on the delays to Farnworth Tunnel, for they know that they will cop the blame as usual from ill-informed people and from the bureaucrats sitting in their cushy offices in Whitehall or wherever.

What this continues to highlight to me is just how very very difficult it is to bring a 19th Century railway into the 21st Century. Rather than lambasting Network Rail as usual, they should be admired for the often-times ingenious ways they respond to the challenges brought by the unexpected. It is hell of a lot easier to build a new railway from scratch than to repair a 19th Century railway in an effort to make it fit for purpose.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I imagine that Network Rail are more frustrated than anyone on the delays to Farnworth Tunnel, for they know that they will cop the blame as usual from ill-informed people and from the bureaucrats sitting in their cushy offices in Whitehall or wherever.

What this continues to highlight to me is just how very very difficult it is to bring a 19th Century railway into the 21st Century. Rather than lambasting Network Rail as usual, they should be admired for the often-times ingenious ways they respond to the challenges brought by the unexpected. It is hell of a lot easier to build a new railway from scratch than to repair a 19th Century railway in an effort to make it fit for purpose.

It's fortunate that our transport secretary is a former miner, who has a good grasp of these sorts of issues thanks to his time spent underground himself.

That's not to say he doesn't robustly hold the Network Rail and DfT people to account, but he's not so detached from reality as to think these things can go without a hitch, or that unforeseen problems don't occur.
 

Joseph_Locke

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If you put the business case for a new tunnel into the mixture, the obvious questions come out - what else can this new tunnel do, so it has an increased gauge and allows for a higher linespeed through the area, with a bit of track re-alignment as necessary to support that.

Capable of 100mph both ways, normal electrical clearances to W12 is what you get.
 

ironstone11

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I believe the original construction method Geeves describes is sometimes known as 'cut and cover'.

I do wonder if this information is correct.

Wikipedia entry for Farnworth Tunnel states:-

To the south-east of the station is Farnworth Tunnel, which has two single-track bores, although when built it had one double-track bore. Originally there was intended to be a cutting, but a tunnel was substituted. This was dug from both ends and also from a shaft at the centre; the main difficulty in construction being the nature of the ground, which consisted of wet sand and clay. It is 295 yards (270 m) long.[3]

The reference for this information is:- John Marshall (1969) The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 1. ISBN 0 7153-4352-1

I think that any attempt to rebore a cut and cover tunnel is an absolute non starter because the ground is not compacted to anything like the same degree as virgin ground.

I feel sure that the NR tunnelling engineers would not have embarked on the present scheme had the existing tunnel been cut and cover.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I feel sure that the NR tunnelling engineers would not have embarked on the present scheme had the existing tunnel been cut and cover.

The problem is getting the railway safely under the A666 road. If this was a fairly open area and space wasn't in such short supply, a cut and cover structure would be the best option today.

If you look at the amount of space the Borders Railway needed to fit a cut and cover tunnel/overbridge into the A720 at Sheriffhall Roundabout, I don't see anything like enough space at Farnworth to make that a realistic option.

The next option would be to close one carriageway at a time and build a new bridge/box in situ, but that doesn't seem like a good idea (and may well not be feasible) given the ground conditions for both the existing tunnels and the adjacent carriageway on the A666.

I don't see any realistic alternative to tunnelling unless you could close the A666 for several weeks, and fit a cut and cover structure in place.
 

ironstone11

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I don't see any realistic alternative to tunnelling unless you could close the A666 for several weeks, and fit a cut and cover structure in place.

Given what we have, whether the existing tunnel was built by cut and cover or not, then yes, tunnelling is the only way.

The bad natural ground conditions are there anyway and the backfill from the possible historic cut and cover just make things worse.

Let's hope the resin injections into the running sand do the trick. In very wet conditions, which seem to be present as well, then freezing the ground is another possibility. Unfortunately having to use these techniques just slows progress.

I notice there is a Twitter picture from earlier today showing Fillie in the tunnel. Unfortunately no tunnelling distance is quoted.
 

LDECRexile

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I agree that what Geeves was told and what Wikipedia says about the construction method differ. I'm in no position to arbitrate I'm afraid.

Joe Callaghan has received a Tweet from NR saying that Fillie is on the move again. He's also seen spoil wagons plying a vigorous trade throughout the day.
 

ironstone11

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Joe Callaghan has received a Tweet from NR saying that Fillie is on the move again. He's also seen spoil wagons plying a vigorous trade throughout the day.

A vigorous trade of spoil wagons sounds like good news.

Assuming they can get back to the originally anticipated of between 5.6 and 7 metres per day, I attach a graph showing possible completion dates. (of tunnel boring)
 

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Philip Phlopp

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I notice there is a Twitter picture from earlier today showing Fillie in the tunnel. Unfortunately no tunnelling distance is quoted.

And to cheer you up further, the picture NetworkRailNP tweeted today is from at least Thursday or Friday last week, if not earlier. It was issued as part of the Network Rail press release at the end of last week, so isn't indicative of where the machine is today.
 

ironstone11

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I agree that what Geeves was told and what Wikipedia says about the construction method differ. I'm in no position to arbitrate I'm afraid.

The author (John Marshall) of the book from which the Wikipedia information is derived was a well known railway historian. It appears there are three volumes on the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

I suspect both situations are probably true, with parts being conventionally tunnelled and other parts, probably at the ends, using the cut and cover technique.
 
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LDECRexile

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Joe Callaghan has, yet again, come up trumps.

He has kindly sent two black and white images showing 'our' line in the 1960s or 1970s.

The less recognisable one shows a large hotel slap bang next to Farnworth station, which simply no longer exists. Joe's commentary is fascinating.

The more recognisable one nevertheless has the look and feel of a vanished world.

I've added them as Photos 4924l (the last character is a lover case L) and 4984n, to place them with related others.

They are in Joe's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345

and in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Wonderful stuff, thank you Joe.
 

QueensCurve

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The Farnworth tunnels were surveyed in the late 70s for electrification, the only conclusion was to take the 'top' off and leave the lines in situ so to speak.

Early 70s perhaps? I think BR had planned Manchester to Blackpool electrification to follow on immediately after Weaver Jct to Glasgow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What this continues to highlight to me is just how very very difficult it is to bring a 19th Century railway into the 21st Century. Rather than lambasting Network Rail as usual, they should be admired for the often-times ingenious ways they respond to the challenges brought by the unexpected. It is hell of a lot easier to build a new railway from scratch than to repair a 19th Century railway in an effort to make it fit for purpose.

This is very true, but see Roger Ford in this month's Modern Railways for a very good expose of how NR have failed to take the lessons of the ECML electrification into account for the GW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree that what Geeves was told and what Wikipedia says about the construction method differ. I'm in no position to arbitrate I'm afraid.

Joe Callaghan has received a Tweet from NR saying that Fillie is on the move again. He's also seen spoil wagons plying a vigorous trade throughout the day.

As a general rule, I would not regard Wikipedia as an authoritative source.
 

ironstone11

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As a general rule, I would not regard Wikipedia as an authoritative source.

I agree. That's why I quoted the source of the information as being the book by John Marshall (1969) The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 1. ISBN 0 7153-4352-1
 

LDECRexile

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As a general rule, I would not regard Wikipedia as an authoritative source.

I have in the past contributed quite a lot to Wikipedia. My starting expectation was that you could put any tripe in, but I was very quickly disabused of this. They have strong and rigorous (in some cases irritatingly pedantic, but that's a virtue) processes for vetting everything which is written, regarding railways, at least.

As Ironstone rightly says, the source in the Wikipedia entry for the tunnel is a respected author in a work generally accepted as sound. Wikipedia's aim is to ensure all entries are soundly sourced, if an entry hasn't any sources it is either chucked out or has a great big warning flag at the top.

I reckon Wikipedia's greatest virtue is that it has usually done a lot of legwork to get the reader to a rich vein of sources. The more that folks like us chip in the stronger it'll be.

Examples I can vouch for are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckmanton_Junction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirebrook_North_railway_station

The usual caveat is that I can still remember, as a nine year old, discovering with shock that something in a book could be wrong.
 

Philip Phlopp

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This is very true, but see Roger Ford in this month's Modern Railways for a very good expose of how NR have failed to take the lessons of the ECML electrification into account for the GW.

Except Network Rail and their design partners at Furrer+Frey have very definitely taken the lessons of the ECML into account. The Series 1 system is arguably over engineered, but as Roger Ford says - "too much is a good starting point" and that's very definitely true of OLE.

That's why we're installing heavier, more reliable catenary that has mechanically independent registration. It has 140mph capability even with two pantographs, fewer failure points, far fewer unique parts and can easily be adjusted to cope with switches and crossovers being added or removed, or other track layout changes.

The heavier, more robust OLE needs heavier, more robust foundations, that's why the foundations are far bigger and different in design to the ECML poured concrete foundations. They're far more resistant to in-situ rotational movement, which has been something of an issue on various parts of the ECML.

The actual components are designed to deform in a carefully controlled manner, causing as little damage to other parts of the system as is possible, but a dewirement at high speed puts a lot of force into the catenary, so having a stronger, more robust catenary will ensure less damage is done during a dewirement, and if there's less damage done, it's going to be much easier and quicker to repair.

It sounds dramatic, but all it takes is a huckbolt or fastener to be damaged during a dewirement and you've got the repair team having to cut bolts to continue with their repairs, a delay of 10 minutes on one bolt, repeated over a half dozen structures puts your repair an hour behind target, so the design of the components will hopefully make such instances much less frequent, making repairs after dewirements a quicker, easier process. We certainly hope never to see the sort of 2 and 3 days of disruption that a dewirement on the ECML can cause.

The whole design, for reliability and ease of repair has demanded more modern tensioning arrangements, and the removal of the slightly absurd situation where tensioning on a four track railway has the tail wires from the central pair of tracks crossing over the outside pair of tracks to reach their tensioners. That's resulted in over track tensioning, which requires much more substantial portal structures, but in return, reliability should be much improved.

The Great Western is going to have the gold standard for railway electrification in the UK when it's finished, and it'll go almost completely un-noticed - nobody is going to stop and sing its praises because there are so few dewirements, or when a rare dewirement causes just one track to be closed and services can operate with only a few minutes delay - because that's what a good quality OLE system should be capable of providing. I feel a little ashamed that we've become content in some quarters to accept just small improvements over the abomination that is the British Rail Mark 3 overhead line system. We are capable (with a bit of Swiss help) of doing something much better, and thankfully we're doing it.
 
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