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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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Dixie

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I wonder if they ever considered removing the most of the tunnels and just leaving a bit to support the dual carriageway. Although there is a house adjacent to the dual carriageway almost over the tunnel which would have probably complicated things.
 
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LDECRexile

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Joe Callaghan has kindly sent three shots he took at Farnworth today. They show progress north of the tunnel.

I've added them to Joe's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe.

Paul, Wrinkley and I spent several hours watching Soho Street bridge being demolished today. We left when a third camera battery was running flat and about a third of the steel H-section spans had been removed. The Jack Arches were removed this morning. The effort needed to do so showed what a resilient structure they are.

We also saw some progress at Orlando St bridge and Wrinkley was going to walk to Ladybridge after tea to see what's what.

It will be well into tomorrow before I can harvest and publish the images.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've received an email from a friend who worked for many years in civil engineering, though never on railways. He's heard of Fillie's troubles and sent this anecdote:

I was involved in a job at a port where the old dock wall had been backfilled with dredged sand on the land side. The dock wall thickened as it went down with the extra width built in steps on the land side. We had an original drawing of the wall cross section showing the steps. It was decided to dig down to the top of a step and backfill with concrete to provide a foundation for rails for a dockside crane. When we dug down, the step wasn’t where it should have been, but two metres lower and we were the below sea level with water pouring in through the wall. We finished up putting dry mix concrete down the hole until we got back to sea level. As they say, you don’t know what’s there until you put the spade in.

Those who rush to judgement on Farnworth might reflect on my friend's last sentence.
 

Class 170101

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I would be interested to know how much time NR proposed for the Blockade in the original instance and compare it with how much time the 'cuirrent' plan is using and whether or not the time NR originally proposed ends up in reality becoming what happens in practise now that the project is expecting to exceed its time allowance and thus overrun.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I would be interested to know how much time NR proposed for the Blockade in the original instance and compare it with how much time the 'cuirrent' plan is using and whether or not the time NR originally proposed ends up in reality becoming what happens in practise now that the project is expecting to exceed its time allowance and thus overrun.

The original plans were to electrify the two tunnels individually, with track lowering, slab track in one tunnel, and rigid overhead conductor, with a time frame of four months.

The survey work revealed the tunnels were life expired and wouldn't support such work, so re-boring became the only option, so it's pointless doing the what-if thing here, the provision of an entirely new tunnel by whatever means possible became pretty much the only option, other than closing the railway and forgetting all about running trains.

The tunnel and associated works were to be completed by 4 October 2015, allowing normal services to resume on 5 October 2015.
 

Whistler40145

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If the survey found that the original plans couldn't be put into practice, then the job that's being done is the only option available and we'll just have to be patient and the outcome will be well worth waiting for.
 

Darren R

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Joe Callaghan has kindly sent three shots he took at Farnworth today. They show progress north of the tunnel.

I've added them to Joe's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe.

Paul, Wrinkley and I spent several hours watching Soho Street bridge being demolished today. We left when a third camera battery was running flat and about a third of the steel H-section spans had been removed. The Jack Arches were removed this morning. The effort needed to do so showed what a resilient structure they are.

We also saw some progress at Orlando St bridge and Wrinkley was going to walk to Ladybridge after tea to see what's what.

It will be well into tomorrow before I can harvest and publish the images.

Excellent photographs, as always. I was going to be pedantic and point out that photo 4952z, which is labelled as Orlando Street Bridge is actually Lever Street Bridge, but on closer inspection I noticed someone else has beaten me to it on the Flikr page! What is to happen to this bridge, by the way?

I don't want to over-state this, but at least a small part of me can't help but be a little sad at seeing the destruction of all these historic and distinctive bridges in the Bolton area. Being from Darwen, I spent a good deal of my formative years on and around Bolton station. (I was going to call it Trinity Street but then I realised that made me sound a lot older than I really am! :lol:)
 

Darren R

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As far as I'm aware Lever Street bridge is to remain untouched.

I couldn't visualise the clearance below the footbridge, although my recollection is that it is higher than the neighbouring Orlando Street Bridge. (But then again the last time I climbed those stone stairs it was to get a good view of the semaphore signals at Bolton East Jn, so it's been a while! :lol:)
 

snowball

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I don't have any inside knowledge, it's just that I trust LDECR's secret source who supplied the information that went into the Bridgeoscope. If I remember correctly the only bridge that has had to be added after the initial batch is Orlando Street, which is a somewhat separate project as (according to some sources at least) it already had the clearance and is only being done because it was falling to bits.
 

LDECRexile

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Excellent photographs, as always. I was going to be pedantic and point out that photo 4952z, which is labelled as Orlando Street Bridge is actually Lever Street Bridge, but on closer inspection I noticed someone else has beaten me to it on the Flikr page! What is to happen to this bridge, by the way?

I don't want to over-state this, but at least a small part of me can't help but be a little sad at seeing the destruction of all these historic and distinctive bridges in the Bolton area. Being from Darwen, I spent a good deal of my formative years on and around Bolton station. (I was going to call it Trinity Street but then I realised that made me sound a lot older than I really am! :lol:)

Thanks for commenting on the Lever St bridge photo.

Sometimes labelling photos is an interesting challenge, and 4952z is an example of my commonest dilemma. The shot is indeed of Lever Street footbridge, which I was about to ascend to photograph Orlando St bridge. I included it for general interest and to show other would-be observers where this excellent vantage point is and what it looks like. The theme of the 4952 series is Orlando St bridge works, so I kept to that, relying on the text to make it clear that this bridge is the vantage point not the object of the study. Clearly I've not made that clear. Maybe I'll revisit it and spell that out more, maybe I'll just leave it to stimulate interest.

I drool at the thought of Bolton in semaphore days. Do you have any photos you took which you could share? They would go some way to remedying often-stated regrets at the passing of familiar scenes.

When Paul and I were on Lever St bridge, by the way, we were wondering where Bolton steam shed used to be, can you help us out?

Lever St footbridge doesn't need any work for electrification.

Dave
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Joe Callaghan has also contacted me over terminological inexactitudes in the photo labelling department.

Joe is a lifetime local resident and said he'd never heard of Phythian footbridge, the footbridge in question being known locally as Darley Grove bridge (ie MVE1/44 immediately north of Farnworth station).

I replied saying that the railway's official name for the bridge is Phythian, though the reasons for this are lost in the mists of time.

Joe, being Joe, went the extra mile and came up with this to add to the mysteries of the bridges between Farnworth and Moses Gate:

Hi David, when I was born in 1940 I lived in Phethean St. Moses Gate, Farnworth, not far from Moses Gate railway station. I moved to Church Rd. Kearsley with my parents two years later. We knew the bridges by the streets they were on.

Below an excerpt from Bolton museum.

(2) John Phethean and Company Ltd. was incorporated in 1885, so that could be the date the Moses Gate Mill was built as they were presumably in Bolton before that. (this fits with what little family info I have about the Moses gate mill). However, see the 1884 entry which mentions “Phethean & Sons”. Was this a previous business or company name? I believe the company survived until 1936 since at that date the various telephone numbers for the company cease to exist as it merged with others and eventually became part of Vantona.

I wish my grandad was here now so I could ask him.. He and his family worked on the canals using their horses to pull boats. They moved here from Ireland in the potato famine 1840s, I think. I think that the mill owners of the time paid toward bridges etc When the canals and railways were built.

The spellings may be different, but tracing my family back to Scotty Rd. Liverpool about 1840 Callaghan was spelt three different ways!

Joe.

Smashing stuff, thank you Joe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, now here's more, straight from an authoritative source:

Lever Street footbridge's future is uncertain for structural, electrical and train impact reasons[..]

As to Phythians/ Phethians, bridges collect names, sometimes landowners, sometimes descriptions ("skew bridge" or "six arches") sometimes streets or even events. [..]NR's bridge database CARRS, which was derived from BR's records, gives Phythians, so it has been an "official" name since the 60's, corruptions of spelling aside. At one point the bridge records were all hand-written on index cards, so anything could have happened over time!

Thank you yet again, authoritative source.
 
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ironstone11

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That would explain the grassy soil in the tunnel.

That looks like straw!. There appears to be what looks like a bale of straw on the tunnel floor to the front left of the dumper in the picture at the top of the NR press release.

Quite how straw comes into the process I don't know. Temporary void filling perhaps?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Source: Network Rail Media Centre
It has proved impossible to safely excavate while concurrently installing and grouting sections of tunnel wall as was originally planned.

For this concurrency to take place it would seem that the plan was to excavate 1.4 metres ahead of the cover over the shield. i.e. unprotected or supported by Fillie, while at the same time the lining segments were fitted further back.

If the inch foward approach is taken, as I suggested in an earlier post, then you can't at the same time fit the lining segments until the head has inched forward by the full 1.4 m, the space required to fit the lining. This approach is much slower but less likely to be troubled by roof falls.

It was evidently thought that the ground was sufficiently stable to allow open tunnelling at the head. In most cases this would be a safe judgement, but evidently not here.

Let's hope that the resin injection does the trick and that better ground conditions are found further on.
 

Philip Phlopp

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For this concurrency to take place it would seem that the plan was to excavate 1.4 metres ahead of the cover over the shield. i.e. unprotected or supported by Fillie, while at the same time the lining segments were fitted further back.

So they weren't allowing the TBM to continually creep forward as excavation proceeds, instead moving it 1.4 metres forward in one movement after each ring is installed.

All I can think to say about that is - brave.
 

ironstone11

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So they weren't allowing the TBM to continually creep forward as excavation proceeds, instead moving it 1.4 metres forward in one movement after each ring is installed.

All I can think to say about that is - brave.

That's how I read and interpret it!

1.4 metres isn't that much in the right ground conditions. Some tunnelling advances much more than that followed by shotcreting to hold it together before the lining is placed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's how I read and interpret it!

1.4 metres isn't that much in the right ground conditions. Some tunnelling advances much more than that followed by shotcreting to hold it together before the lining is placed.

From Wikipedia and somewhat stating the obvious.

key geotechnical factors include:

"Stand-up time" is the amount of time a tunnel will support itself without any added structures. Knowing this time allows the engineers to determine how much can be excavated before support is needed. The longer the stand-up time is the faster the excavating will go. Generally certain configurations of rock and clay will have the greatest stand-up time, and sand and fine soils will have a much lower stand-up time."
 

spongsdad

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When Paul and I were on Lever St bridge, by the way, we were wondering where Bolton steam shed used to be, can you help us out?

Lever St footbridge doesn't need any work for electrification.

If you have any Ordnance Survey maps, the grid reference for Bolton shed is/was SD72550750. It stood quite close to Burnden Park football ground. I'm not sure whether the links will work but you can also look at the excellent set of MARIO maps on the Lancashire County Council website. These enable you to overlay old maps on current locations.
http://mario.lancashire.gov.uk/agsmario/default.aspx
 
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Geeves

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I take it that was you two LDEC and co in the hats with the step at the bridge in Bolton? I thought it was but I was a bit afraid to ask! I was in my railway uniform around 1pm

Coming on slowly but surely, the new bus station has grown alot in the last week too.
 
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Class 170101

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The original plans were to electrify the two tunnels individually, with track lowering, slab track in one tunnel, and rigid overhead conductor, with a time frame of four months.

The survey work revealed the tunnels were life expired and wouldn't support such work, so re-boring became the only option, so it's pointless doing the what-if thing here, the provision of an entirely new tunnel by whatever means possible became pretty much the only option, other than closing the railway and forgetting all about running trains.

The tunnel and associated works were to be completed by 4 October 2015, allowing normal services to resume on 5 October 2015.

My question still stands once NR had decided how Farnworth was to be tackled how long was planned, allowed for by discussion with operators and how long it will take in practise. If NR didn't know how Farnworth was to be tackled in terms of the tunnel before discussing with opeartors then that sounds like sheer incompetence.
 

LDECRexile

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Spongsdad: thank you very much. I've got the area pretty closely now.

Geeves: that sounds like us! We don't bite, honest. It would have been good to say hello.

I've now wanged yesterday's material on.

I've added Paul's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

I've added Winkley's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234

and added all our shots to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Thank you Paul and Wrinkley.

We met a couple of interested folks armed with cameras/mobiles. I hope you read this and get in touch.

Dave
 

Philip Phlopp

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My question still stands once NR had decided how Farnworth was to be tackled how long was planned, allowed for by discussion with operators and how long it will take in practise. If NR didn't know how Farnworth was to be tackled in terms of the tunnel before discussing with opeartors then that sounds like sheer incompetence.

I'll be honest, I don't have the first idea what information you actually want or expect.

Network Rail gauged the two Farnworth Tunnels first of all, and determined that no overhead catenary could fit within the two tunnels without the tunnels being modified.

The civil engineers had a look at the data we have on the tunnels and initially decided the work needed would be a trackbed lower in one tunnel and slab track in the second tunnel (I forget which one is which) and went about checking the lining of the tunnel to see what implications a track bed lower and slab track installation would have on the lining, what work would be needed at the base of the tunnel, and checking to see where the catenary would be installed on the roof of the tunnel.

The civil engineers very quickly came to the realisation that the tunnels were effectively life expired, and would need significant work to rehabilitate the fabric of the structure, even then, additional work and additional monitoring would be needed.

The question was asked - what if we build a new tunnel, would that help, and a business case was built around re-boring the larger tunnel, improving the alignment, increasing the line speed to make full use of the 100mph capability of the rolling stock, and removing some of the maintenance requirements that would come from monitoring and repairing the old tunnels continually.

The four month closure that was originally mentioned 3 years back was before detailed design work was done, that was based on other tunnel repair work that Network Rail has had to contend with, experience from looking after structures like Box Tunnel, the Severn Tunnel and planning works concerning repairs to Bowshank Tunnel and electrification of Winchburgh Tunnel.

The decision was made to re-bore the large tunnel thank to the business case that was developed, and that's where the current plan comes from.

The current plan was based on the tunnelling company working on the geophysics data they generated and from lots of work going on between the civils contractor, electrification contractor, tunnelling contractor and the TBM manufacturer to decide on the machine needed, the progression the machine would have with each ring fitted and what sort of tunnelling rates could be achieved given the ground conditions presented at the site, with the actual tunnel requirements dictated by Network Rail's requirements for gauge and track alignment.

There was also the requirement to keep one track open if possible, whilst the work was ongoing, so additional works were then planned to reinforce the remaining tunnel and to work out if any additional requirements would be needed to maximise the safety and stability of the remaining tunnel. There was lots of work with TOCs to see what we could do for them too, so they could offer less frequent but more capacious services. There's Schedule 4 and Schedule 8 payments to take into account too.

That all fed in, with other aspects of the electrification program, so we knew how long the tunnel would take to re-bore, what other works were necessary for the alignment changes, track upgrades for the speed and so on, with the result that a timetable was drawn up and with a little extra padding to cope with small problems - bad weather, machinery failure, that sort of thing, it was intended that the tunnel would have been re-bored and completely ready for traffic on the 5 October 2015.

There's none of this incompetence that you like to accuse Network Rail of time and time again. Network Rail are not tunnelling engineers, that's why specialist contractors have been appointed. This is not an overrun like the Kings Cross debacle at Christmas, it's a very well planned operation being screwed over by some really bad corner cutting and bodged tunneling work from the 1830s.
 

LDECRexile

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Wrinkley has been in touch again:

1. The road "The Sheddings" now occupies the Bolton steam shed site.

2. Tremendous progress at Soho Street bridge - all bridge parts gone, new walls erected, looks set fair to be returned to NR for traffic tomorrow morning. This evening I'll upload the shots Wrinkley has sent today.

Warm thanks Wrinkley.

Joe Callaghan has been in touch again, too.

He writes:

Hi Dave, not much happening here again today, when I took the photos yesterday it looked like the bricklayers were taking slabs off and replacing them I don't know why unless the levels were wrong.

It's a pity about the problems with the wet sand in the tunnel. This is history repeating itself but not quite in the same way.

You will of course know that when the railway was built the Farnworth Kearsley track was intended to all be in a cutting, but when they got to the highest part of the hill they discovered running sand and this made them construct a tunnel. The engineers this time must have known about this.

On top of the tunnel just where Buckingham's site is were 3 mill lodges, I used to fish in them, along with many others. One of them was more in the position of the A666. Those mills and lodges must have been there before the Railway was built. The water from those mill lodges must have been seeping into the ground for 200 years or more.

When they were preparing the ground back in January a worker told me they were having problems with water then, he asked me what used to be here, I told him about the reservoirs. I hope they can sort it now.

Joe

Thank you yet again Joe, smashing stuff. I'll post your latest photo this evening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've now added Joe's shot to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345

and Wrinkley's shots of progress at Soho St today, here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234

As always, I've added them all to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe and Wrinkley.
 
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Class 170101

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I'll be honest, I don't have the first idea what information you actually want or expect.

The four month closure that was originally mentioned 3 years back was before detailed design work was done, that was based on other tunnel repair work that Network Rail has had to contend with, experience from looking after structures like Box Tunnel, the Severn Tunnel and planning works concerning repairs to Bowshank Tunnel and electrification of Winchburgh Tunnel.
Right - This is the first bit of information I'm looking for. :p The Engineers / Experts said four months required.

There was lots of work with TOCs to see what we could do for them too, so they could offer less frequent but more capacious services. There's Schedule 4 and Schedule 8 payments to take into account too.

Second bit of information is here but some more clarity is being asked for; Did the train operators agree to the four months straight out or did they try and barter it down? The above quote suggests NR did discuss with operators but did NR stand firm, modify its proposals for operators or cave in thus increasing the risk of overrun? From experience sometimes the operators push hard at NR because they think NR are pushing their luck a bit but also because perhaps they believe NR have considered only one way of working, the one that suits NR.

The third bit appears to be answered by the first which is the engineers asked for four months and indeded the line is blocked for longer than that - Beginning of May to beginning of October and sadly it appears not to be enough, I'll be interested to see the actual finish date when it comes.

There's none of this incompetence that you like to accuse Network Rail of time and time again.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one as my perception is one of frustration with NR in terms of their planning - as noted recently by the ORR.

Network Rail are not tunnelling engineers, that's why specialist contractors have been appointed. This is not an overrun like the Kings Cross debacle at Christmas,
Maybe not, however I don't think the ORR will look on it too favourably given what happened at Kings Cross / Paddington. Remember Phases 1 and 2 of NW wiring were commissioned late and now Balfour Beatty are being replaced - its all negative despite the good that the wiring has done.

it's a very well planned operation being screwed over by some really bad corner cutting and bodged tunneling work from the 1830s.[/QUOTE]
Would the bodged tunnelling not be spotted by modern survey techniques though? Its coming across from what I read that these issues are being dealt with as they arise rather than being foreseen and planned for as much as practically possible.
 

Darren R

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...I drool at the thought of Bolton in semaphore days. Do you have any photos you took which you could share? They would go some way to remedying often-stated regrets at the passing of familiar scenes.

When Paul and I were on Lever St bridge, by the way, we were wondering where Bolton steam shed used to be, can you help us out?

Bolton steam shed used to be on the Down side between Burnden Jn and the Bee Hive Mills; as you say, it was where the small housing estate now is.

This website may be of interest to you and useful regarding historical railway information:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/index.cfm#zoom=12&lat=53.5845&lon=-2.4828&layers=39&point=-2.3929,53.5550

It is fantastically useful - from a grateful Englishman, thank you National Library of Scotland! :lol:

I'm sure I have some photographs of Bolton, but only from the early to mid 1980s (when I was old enough to be 'let off the leash' a little by my parents!) They won't be Trinity Street in its prime I'm afraid (and I have to add to the constant refrain of "I wish I'd taken more photographs!") but I'll happily dig them out if they are of interest to you.

Just as an aside (I don't want to turn this into a nostalgia thread!) I was lucky enough to spend two seperate Saturday afternoons on very, very unofficial visits to Bolton East and Bolton West Jn signal boxes in about 1984. Alas, I didn't have my camera with me on those occasions - the views of the station and approaches were unparalleled!
 

Philip Phlopp

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Right - This is the first bit of information I'm looking for. :p The Engineers / Experts said four months required.

I give up.

Four months was the time that was mentioned for a completely different method of electrifying the Farnworth Tunnels, with different alignment, different linespeed and no additional outputs. That needs to be forgotten, it's of no relevance to the current work, which is in absolutely no way comparable.

The current plan with the closure of the up line has been May to October, so a five month closure of one line, with additional works taking place during that time to allow the rebuilding of stations, demolition/rebuilding of bridges and work on retaining wall structures.

I'm excluding the enabling works which included weekend possessions, because the original plans of track lowering and slab tracking the existing tunnels would have required weekend possessions too, as was the case with the Winchburgh Tunnel works.

The soil mechanics/geology specialists appraised Network Rail of what the ground conditions were, we had an idea, but we didn't expect them to be so bad and so difficult to work through. Network Rail in their material supplied to the press described the ground conditions as "concrete, brickwork, stone and timbers from the old infilled tunnel, surrounded by untouched glacial tills."

Glacial tills include sand, sediment and angular rock material - the problem the tunnelling contractors have is that they're hitting much more fine sediment in much smaller, more irregular pockets than the soil experts thought existed. If anybody is at fault, and it's hard to assign blame here, it would be the soil mechanics people, but it's very small pockets of fine material that you could miss by taking a core sample just inches either way, you could have taken 10 times the number of core samples and still not have had any more idea about what the TBM was going to hit.

And did TOCs push Network Rail - yes, they always do, but Network Rail had a TBM that could only progress at a given rate, no matter how much the TOCs wanted the closure shortened, it couldn't be done. This is another pointless discussion, it's not like the engineering work is running a few days behind schedule and Network Rail could be accused of trying to push work to be done in a few days less than was really needed.

The tunnelling work could be almost three months behind schedule, there's absolutely no way Network Rail would propose a closure for an extra two or three months, just in case the project hits difficulties. You might manage to get a week of extra closure for a project like this, but at the end of the day, everybody is focused on re-opening this route, removing the disruption for passengers and increasing rail use.
 

LDECRexile

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Bolton steam shed used to be on the Down side between Burnden Jn and the Bee Hive Mills; as you say, it was where the small housing estate now is.

This website may be of interest to you and useful regarding historical railway information:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/index.cfm#zoom=12&lat=53.5845&lon=-2.4828&layers=39&point=-2.3929,53.5550

It is fantastically useful - from a grateful Englishman, thank you National Library of Scotland! :lol:

I'm sure I have some photographs of Bolton, but only from the early to mid 1980s (when I was old enough to be 'let off the leash' a little by my parents!) They won't be Trinity Street in its prime I'm afraid (and I have to add to the constant refrain of "I wish I'd taken more photographs!") but I'll happily dig them out if they are of interest to you.

Just as an aside (I don't want to turn this into a nostalgia thread!) I was lucky enough to spend two seperate Saturday afternoons on very, very unofficial visits to Bolton East and Bolton West Jn signal boxes in about 1984. Alas, I didn't have my camera with me on those occasions - the views of the station and approaches were unparalleled!

1. Thanks for the National Library of Scotland link, splendid stuff!

2. I'm sure your photos will interest me. I'm equally sure they will interest others, too.

3. I don't think there's much danger that this will turn into a nostalgia thread. I'd do my best to thwart it for starters. What I do like, and many others tell me they do too, is 'Then and Now.' A sprinkling of shots of the past , especially the memorable and/or the contrasting past goes down a treat alongside our express theme which is implementing tomorrow.

4. I admit to an additional agenda, every shot on this and the sister Liverpool-Manchester Electrification thread is amateur. Between them we have brought lots of people and lots of material out into the light of day. Your shots mouldering half forgotten in a box you can't remember where are a hidden treasure. I wager a pint that someone, somewhere, will see at least one of your photos and smile; and it'll cost nowt.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Dave
 

Darren R

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1,252
Location
Lancashire
1. Thanks for the National Library of Scotland link, splendid stuff!

2. I'm sure your photos will interest me. I'm equally sure they will interest others, too.

3. I don't think there's much danger that this will turn into a nostalgia thread. I'd do my best to thwart it for starters. What I do like, and many others tell me they do too, is 'Then and Now.' A sprinkling of shots of the past , especially the memorable and/or the contrasting past goes down a treat alongside our express theme which is implementing tomorrow.

4. I admit to an additional agenda, every shot on this and the sister Liverpool-Manchester Electrification thread is amateur. Between them we have brought lots of people and lots of material out into the light of day. Your shots mouldering half forgotten in a box you can't remember where are a hidden treasure. I wager a pint that someone, somewhere, will see at least one of your photos and smile; and it'll cost nowt.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Dave

Fair do's! :D I'll see what I can dig out later in the week (when I should have a bit more time!)

Incidentally, regarding the NLoS old OS maps website, it's worth keeping a check on the different scales that are available, as they are slowly adding coverage of the large scale 25" to the mile historic maps.
 

LDECRexile

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2014
Messages
2,149
Location
Southport, UK
By guile worthy of Sir Humphrey Paul wangled a return visit to Soho Street this afternoon, taking a lady for a trip out and a treat!

I've added his photos to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648767927083

Samantha will be pleased to look after Paul's points for this coup.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I give up.

Four months was the time that was mentioned for a completely different method of electrifying the Farnworth Tunnels, with different alignment, different linespeed and no additional outputs. That needs to be forgotten, it's of no relevance to the current work, which is in absolutely no way comparable.

The current plan with the closure of the up line has been May to October, so a five month closure of one line, with additional works taking place during that time to allow the rebuilding of stations, demolition/rebuilding of bridges and work on retaining wall structures.

I'm excluding the enabling works which included weekend possessions, because the original plans of track lowering and slab tracking the existing tunnels would have required weekend possessions too, as was the case with the Winchburgh Tunnel works.

The soil mechanics/geology specialists appraised Network Rail of what the ground conditions were, we had an idea, but we didn't expect them to be so bad and so difficult to work through. Network Rail in their material supplied to the press described the ground conditions as "concrete, brickwork, stone and timbers from the old infilled tunnel, surrounded by untouched glacial tills."

Glacial tills include sand, sediment and angular rock material - the problem the tunnelling contractors have is that they're hitting much more fine sediment in much smaller, more irregular pockets than the soil experts thought existed. If anybody is at fault, and it's hard to assign blame here, it would be the soil mechanics people, but it's very small pockets of fine material that you could miss by taking a core sample just inches either way, you could have taken 10 times the number of core samples and still not have had any more idea about what the TBM was going to hit.

And did TOCs push Network Rail - yes, they always do, but Network Rail had a TBM that could only progress at a given rate, no matter how much the TOCs wanted the closure shortened, it couldn't be done. This is another pointless discussion, it's not like the engineering work is running a few days behind schedule and Network Rail could be accused of trying to push work to be done in a few days less than was really needed.

The tunnelling work could be almost three months behind schedule, there's absolutely no way Network Rail would propose a closure for an extra two or three months, just in case the project hits difficulties. You might manage to get a week of extra closure for a project like this, but at the end of the day, everybody is focused on re-opening this route, removing the disruption for passengers and increasing rail use.

Please don't give up. I for one really appreciate your detailed and knowledgeable contributions.

Questions is easy, answers is hard.
 

Chrisyd

Member
Joined
16 May 2015
Messages
210
Engineering works at Farnworth have over run, this is caused by a mechanical failure. Trains from 9am is current estimate. 0738 train going out of Bolton backwards to Hindley then back in on the Atherton line. According to the guard will add 15 minutes to journey time.
 
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