Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are the Edinburgh-Manchester trains planned to revert to via Bolton once the electrification of that line is complete? Currently going via Wigan and sharp turn left at Newton le Willows. About the same time for me from Lancaster but it's very frustrating trundling along at what seems to be about 10mph and we go from the west coast mainline onto the chat moss route. Why so slow and will it be speeded up anytime soon?

A perennial question.
The declared aim is to stay on the Chat Moss route, but the Bolton mob are intent on getting them back when the wiring is finished.
The fact is, Chat Moss is extra capacity compared to the congested Bolton route.
The Chat Moss route has been speeded up, to 90mph (except the 20mph junctions and a stretch of 60mph near Astley).
And don't forget (as Mancunians/Boltonians are apt to) the benefit to Liverpool of connections at Wigan.

 

[Senex]

A perennial question.
The declared aim is to stay on the Chat Moss route, but the Bolton mob are intent on getting them back when the wiring is finished.
The fact is, Chat Moss is extra capacity compared to the congested Bolton route.
The Chat Moss route has been speeded up, to 90mph (except the 20mph junctions and a stretch of 60mph near Astley).
And don't forget (as Mancunians/Boltonians are apt to) the benefit to Liverpool of connections at Wigan.

But doesn't Wigan get a very good Scotland service in any case that can provide those Liverpool connections? And if the intention is that this should be the main line long term from Manchester to the north despite the significant extra distance, why was nothing done to improve layout and speeds on the Parkside-Lowton-Golborne curve? And is 60/75 the best that can be done with Chat Moss (I'm thinking of what DB have done with similar ground conditions on several of their main lines)?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

... why was nothing done to improve layout and speeds on the Parkside-Lowton-Golborne curve? And is 60/75 the best that can be done with Chat Moss (I'm thinking of what DB have done with similar ground conditions on several of their main lines)?

Parkside - Lowton - Golborne is a curvature issue. To fix it you need land. I suggest the answer is "because trying to do it will meet with massive objections from the naysayers and nimbys." if you were speeding it up, you also grade separate it - I'd guess at £200m - £300m for that.

75 is the best without (pretty much) rebuilding it on piles. To save ~45 seconds. Outcome - no business case.

This thread also seems to suggest that whilst the Bolton route will be electrified, there won't be any speed or capacity improvements. ORLY?

 

[WatcherZero]

Despite the longer distance the journey time is nearly exactly the same (with the added benefit of extra capacity/reliability on the Bolton line).

Its a long way off but personally I argue for the Manchester-Wigan HS2 line to become the main route from Manchester to Scotland, it relieves capacity on Chat Moss for more Liverpool/Manchester or local stoppers for Leigh/Eccles, provides the same journey time Wigan-Piccadilly as the Chat Moss route does today with the added benefit of a Wigan-Manchester airport call before it reaches Piccadilly too! In effect it reduces Scotland-Manchester Airport journey time by 10 minutes whilst maintaining the same Scotland-Piccadilly time. And thats before any improvements between Wigan and Scotland.

 

[thealexweb]

A perennial question.
The declared aim is to stay on the Chat Moss route, but the Bolton mob are intent on getting them back when the wiring is finished.
The fact is, Chat Moss is extra capacity compared to the congested Bolton route.
The Chat Moss route has been speeded up, to 90mph (except the 20mph junctions and a stretch of 60mph near Astley).
And don't forget (as Mancunians/Boltonians are apt to) the benefit to Liverpool of connections at Wigan.

It makes good sense to bring them back via Bolton. The Bolton route is currently only two minutes faster on average, but post-electrification when large stretches of the Bolton route will be ready for 100mph running (plus faster acceleration from EMUs), the Bolton route could be 1/3 faster or more than the longer Newton Li Willows route.

The Bolton corridor can deal with the Scotland services on top of what it currently manages but if more flex was needed TPE's Blackpool North services could go via Wigan instead, with Northern's stopper maintaining a link with Blackpool.

Also for a station as small as Wigan it already has excellent connections to Scotland provided by Virgin, whilst Bolton (who has more ticket sales than both of the Wigan stations combined) has none.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Please let us not lose sight that this thread was set up to discuss matters of Blackpool to Manchester electrification and whilst the differing Manchester to Preston rail route options can look attractive as far as railway operations are concerned with regard to the Chat Moss route, this will do absolutely nothing for intending Blackpool-bound passengers from Bolton, Horwich, Chorley, etc.

Perhaps it is time for the North and Western Chamber of Commerce to start making their feelings known about any possible detrimental effects on the Blackpool tourist trade.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also for a station as small as Wigan it already has excellent connections to Scotland provided by Virgin, whilst Bolton (who has more ticket sales than both of the Wigan stations combined) has none.

Bit less obvious, theres multiple suburban stations within the town of Wigan but only one in Bolton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bit less obvious, theres multiple suburban stations within the town of Wigan but only one in Bolton.

What do Moses Gate and Hall i' th' Wood come under ?

 

[thealexweb]

Bit less obvious, theres multiple suburban stations within the town of Wigan but only one in Bolton.

Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Westhoughton, Hall i wood, Bromley Cross and maybe one other I am not sure about it. All in Bolton.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Westhoughton, Hall i wood, Bromley Cross and maybe one other I am not sure about it. All in Bolton.

Quickest way may be to do Wigan Station Jct to Lostock Jct and Manchester first? possibly?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Quickest way may be to do Wigan Station Jct to Lostock Jct and Manchester first? possibly?

That's called phase 6. or 7.

 

[ianhr]

Money needs to be spent to increase capacity at both Bolton (where there is plenty of space) and Salford Crescent (where there is only very restricted space) so that both stations have a northbound island platform and a southbound island. This would enable express services to overtake stopping trains with cross platform interchange.. I assume that this is what is proposed for Manchester Oxford Rd and Piccadilly platforms 15/16. Even if the sections of route in between are only 2 track it helps to avoid trains backing up and being held at signals approaching the stations.

 

[edwin_m]

This is what is proposed for Piccadilly and Oxford Road, though the latter will retain one island and two side platforms rather than two islands. I expect trains in each direction will use the two platforms for that direction alternately, increasing capacity as you suggest because one train can be running in while the other one is departing. However I don't think there will be any overtaking, except at times of disruption, because this would involve blocking one of the platforms for several minutes at what would still be a critical station for network performance.

However the platforms at Salford Crescent are hemmed in by junctions either end. The existing ones are already too short for comfort and any new ones would be shorter still (or have no access to/from some routes, which would rather defeat the point). It's difficult to see what might be done here other than to convert the Atherton line to Metrolink and get rid of the northern junction, and that's several decades away as a minimum.

Enhancement of Bolton to give four through platforms all with access to/from the Preston direction would be a good idea too, but I don't think it's on the cards at present although a rumour about reinstating the western through platform was posted on here not too long ago.

 

[WatcherZero]

Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Westhoughton, Hall i wood, Bromley Cross and maybe one other I am not sure about it. All in Bolton.

Moses Gate is arguably in Bolton but only has 25k users per year but the rest while in the Borough of Bolton arent in the town of Bolton, It only has one central station and so concentrated numbers. If you look at Boltons usage most of it is people travelling short distance into the town for work or to Manchester, 3.5m entries and exits and around 625k interchanges, Wallgate and North Western have between just them around 2.8m entries and exits but a higher 650k interchanges (Which doesnt include pedestrian interchanges between the two) (and thats not including Ince, Hag Fold, Pemberton or others which are in the town of Wigan) and if you look at the profile much more long distance users.

 

[thealexweb]

Moses Gate is arguably in Bolton but only has 25k users per year but the rest while in the Borough of Bolton arent in the town of Bolton, It only has one central station and so concentrated numbers. If you look at Boltons usage most of it is people travelling short distance into the town for work or to Manchester, 3.5m entries and exits and around 625k interchanges, Wallgate and North Western have between just them around 2.8m entries and exits but a higher 650k interchanges (Which doesnt include pedestrian interchanges between the two) (and thats not including Ince, Hag Fold, Pemberton or others which are in the town of Wigan) and if you look at the profile much more long distance users.

Moses Gate has only an hourly service Mon to Sat during the day with little services in the evening and no service on Sundays. Its numbers will always be low because of its awful service.

By your figures Wigan has only 25k more passengers travelling long distance, given that Wigan is a mainline station and has direct connections to London and Bolton has none of that it really says something about how badly Bolton is served for long distance travellers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And thats not including Ince, Hag Fold, Pemberton or others which are in the town of Wigan.

I live and learn something new every day on this website. For all these years, I have been under the misapprehension that Hag Fold was within Atherton....:roll:

 

[Nym]

I live and learn something new every day on this website. For all these years, I have been under the misapprehension that Hag Fold was within Atherton....:roll:

Ah, but you see, Atherton is part of the Wigan 'MBC' area, so one should be including Farnworth, Moses Gate, Lostock, Horwich Parkway and a fair few other stations in the comparison, not just Bolton and Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, but you see, Atherton is part of the Wigan 'MBC' area, so one should be including Farnworth, Moses Gate, Lostock, Horwich Parkway and a fair few other stations in the comparison, not just Bolton and Wigan.

I think that you need to look back a few posting ago where comparisons were being made in the thread at railway stations that were within the actual town boundaries of both Wigan and Bolton.

This is why I contend that Hag Fold is within the town boundary of Atherton, not Wigan.

 

[ALX400]

Was at Bolton this weekend and whilst waiting for the train had a good look around, tell ya what i hope there is some plans to do some renovation work and stuff at Bolton its a bit of an eye sore, had a good look at the track and most of it is still on wooden sleepers, i'm assusming that will be re done during electrification work, the curve that goes towards Blackpool under the tunnels looks like it could all do with being done, does anyone know if anything like that is in the plans, defo need a few tins of paint going on the canopy etc

 

[Dunc108]

Was at Bolton this weekend and whilst waiting for the train had a good look around, tell ya what i hope there is some plans to do some renovation work and stuff at Bolton its a bit of an eye sore, had a good look at the track and most of it is still on wooden sleepers, i'm assusming that will be re done during electrification work, the curve that goes towards Blackpool under the tunnels looks like it could all do with being done, does anyone know if anything like that is in the plans, defo need a few tins of paint going on the canopy etc

Yes some of the wooden sleeper track at Bolton probably goes back to the 70's, there's even some ancient bullhead track on the connecting spur from the Blackburn line to the main Manchester-bound platform, and can swear even part of the main line on the 'curve' as you come in is too. I would have thought this had been renewed ages ago given the intense traffic levels over the section, although they're not going over it at high speed. Bet a fair few 142's squeal around those Bolton curves! LOL

 

[Bevan Price]

Also for a station as small as Wigan it already has excellent connections to Scotland provided by Virgin, whilst Bolton (who has more ticket sales than both of the Wigan stations combined) has none.

But Wigan may lose some of its Scottish services if they ever proceed with the sometimes suggested idea of running some Euston - Glasgow services non-stop between London Euston & Preston.

 

[ALX400]

Yes some of the wooden sleeper track at Bolton probably goes back to the 70's, there's even some ancient bullhead track on the connecting spur from the Blackburn line to the main Manchester-bound platform, and can swear even part of the main line on the 'curve' as you come in is too. I would have thought this had been renewed ages ago given the intense traffic levels over the section, although they're not going over it at high speed. Bet a fair few 142's squeal around those Bolton curves! LOL

Oh aye they squeal alright lol all thru them curves, there will be no point putting up all that nice new OHLE and having old trackbed i would have thought, I know that Chorley is due some new slab track during the summer blockade from the station itself all the way through the tunnel towards Buckshaw Parkway

Bolton really does need a bit of work doing on it, there was a piece in the BEN yesterday about Virgin maybe on the verge of extending its Pendo service to start from Bolton direct to Euston instead of piccadilly, no idea what would be involved with that obvs would be when its electrified unless they try it with a voyager first, interesting times tho, it woudl be excellent if that comes off.

 

[Dunc108]

Oh aye they squeal alright lol all thru them curves, there will be no point putting up all that nice new OHLE and having old trackbed i would have thought, I know that Chorley is due some new slab track during the summer blockade from the station itself all the way through the tunnel towards Buckshaw Parkway

Bolton really does need a bit of work doing on it, there was a piece in the BEN yesterday about Virgin maybe on the verge of extending its Pendo service to start from Bolton direct to Euston instead of piccadilly, no idea what would be involved with that obvs would be when its electrified unless they try it with a voyager first, interesting times tho, it woudl be excellent if that comes off.

Yes, if it's pre-electrification they'll have use doubled up Voyagers unless they can stable a 57 at Bolton and 'drag' a Pendolino as far as Oxford Road? I reckon they'd probably go for the Voyager option (if it happens).

 

[driver_m]

Yes, if it's pre-electrification they'll have use doubled up Voyagers unless they can stable a 57 at Bolton and 'drag' a Pendolino as far as Oxford Road? I reckon they'd probably go for the Voyager option (if it happens).

Manchester train managers, caterers and a number of the drivers at Manchester don't sign voyagers or the line to Preston so this is likely to go on the backburner until the line is electrified. Plus the voyager stock is going to be tied in with these extra services to Shrewsbury and Blackpool. As for the 57's, the few that are left are for rescue purposes. I'd be surprised if anything comes of this proposal.

 

[thealexweb]

Yes, if it's pre-electrification they'll have use doubled up Voyagers unless they can stable a 57 at Bolton and 'drag' a Pendolino as far as Oxford Road? I reckon they'd probably go for the Voyager option (if it happens).

Bolton does have the capacity to host a 57 when not in use, either in the sidings or Platform 2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plus the voyager stock is going to be tied in with these extra services to Shrewsbury and Blackpool.

Virgin has made the same level of commitment to Bolton as it has to Blackpool and Shrewsbury, the difference is the time frame that it will happen in. The last time I asked Virgin about this matter 2016 was their working timeframe, linking in with electrification or just coincidence?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But Wigan may lose some of its Scottish services if they ever proceed with the sometimes suggested idea of running some Euston - Glasgow services non-stop between London Euston & Preston.

They could be compensated by stopping the Virgin Glasgow to Birmingham services which generally pass through Wigan without stopping.

Besides even without 'them' its still possible to argue that Wigan would have a better service than it deserves.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They could be compensated by stopping the Virgin Glasgow to Birmingham services which generally pass through Wigan without stopping.

?

The only VT service that currently does not stop at Wigan is the 1630 Euston-Glasgow afaik.

 

[Elecman]

As I have mooted on another thread could Virgin be looking at running the Blackpool/ Euston services via Bolton using an existing Manchester-Euston path thus serving both Blackpool and Bolton with 1 train and no additional path on the WCML?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wasn't the proposed Blackpool-Euston meant to take the path of the 0533 ex-Lancaster, which currently runs via the WCML?

 

[Elecman]

Correct the only VT service that doesn't stop at Wigan or Warrington is the 16.30 ex Euston
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Matt yes that was the proposal but since they are also supposedly looking at serving Bolton with 1 train each way why not consider my option of routing Blackpool via Bolton
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could be run as Voyager for now and a Pendolino after electrification is completed

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Correct the only VT service that doesn't stop at Wigan or Warrington is the 16.30 ex Euston
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Matt yes that was the proposal but since they are also supposedly looking at serving Bolton with 1 train each way why not consider my option of routing Blackpool via Bolton

So long as it isn't at the expense of the current 0533 (or 0558 ex-Preston) direct service via the WCML then I agree it is something to look at. If the service at all is implemented before OHLE juicing through Bolton then I agree it'll most likely be a Voyager (or two) - I doubt anyone from an operation point of view would appreciate loco-hauling for just ten miles right at the start of the morning peak...