Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Still no word on the eventual linespeed - 125mph was mooted, but no services capable of that speed have been approved by ORR. Seems a little odd to deliver a 125mph route when the DfT hasn't asked for such services.

Perhaps someone with the future in mind, for a change.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

---- on exit from Preston that OHLE looks like it all needs renewing its in a dire state, does anyone know if thats in the plans ?

It was done in 1973 - with periodic maintenance since then - extra droppers etc. I am sure some maintenance but not total replacement will occur at the time the knitting to Blackpool is done or just prior to energization. Some of the galv (zinc coating) is getting thin/non-existent in places.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was done in 1973 - with periodic maintenance since then - extra droppers etc. I am sure some maintenance but not total replacement will occur at the time the knitting to Blackpool is done or just prior to energization. Some of the galv (zinc coating) is getting thin/non-existent in places.

Surely a period of 40 years use will have seen the original equipment have paid for itself.

 

[Darren R]

Surely a period of 40 years use will have seen the original equipment have paid for itself.

I think it's the never-been-used section of OLE from Preston Fylde Jn for a short distance along the Blackpool Lines we're talking about here though. Of course there is normally a short over-run of OLE along diesel sections, but it is exceptionally long here. Deliberately so, I believe, as a precursor for BR extending the wires to Blackpool North - not bad, it's only taken over 40 years to finish!

 

[Lankyline]

NR has not let a contract for Phase 3 yet.
If Phase 2 is anything to go by it will be another year before anything happens on the ground related to the OHLE route to Blackpool.
Work has not yet started on the Earlestown-Edge Hill or Ordsall Lane-Victoria sections of Phase 2.
It seems to take 18-24 months to electrify a significant section of railway, from the date the first foundations go in.
So a mid-2014 start would be expected west of Preston.
In parallel NR has a lot of renewal and resignalling work to do.
Still no word on the eventual linespeed - 125mph was mooted, but no services capable of that speed have been approved by ORR.
Seems a little odd to deliver a 125mph route when the DfT hasn't asked for such services.

If it means leaving Blackpool quicker then the faster the better

 

[Whistler40145]

Now that Patrick McLaughlin wants to see Oxenholme to Windermere electrified, would this put weight behind electrifying Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South?

Also, does anyone know what the planned track layout will be at Blackpool North?

 

[driver9000]

Also, does anyone know what the planned track layout will be at Blackpool North?

Last I heard was for 6 platforms and a remodelled throat.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now that Patrick McLaughlin wants to see Oxenholme to Windermere electrified, would this put weight behind electrifying Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South?

Only in the imagination of certain forum members...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Now that Patrick McLaughlin wants to see Oxenholme to Windermere electrified, would this put weight behind electrifying Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South?

It is a diesel island in the middle of nowhere. IMHO it would be a cheap logical infill at some later date.

 

[dggar]

It is a diesel island in the middle of nowhere. IMHO it would be a cheap logical infill at some later date.

Or maybe convert that bit to trams or tram-train and connect it to the existing tram system

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or maybe convert that bit to trams or tram-train and connect it to the existing tram system

I can see that floating that most creative and novel idea on the "Blackpool Tramway" master thread on the "Other Transport" forum would most certainly add invigoration to it...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It is a diesel island in the middle of nowhere. IMHO it would be a cheap logical infill at some later date.

While it would be great to see that line electrified (and improved with some double tracking and extension to central Blackpool), I'm not sure the 'diesel island' argument would really wash here. The trains on it do after all continue to Blackburn and Colne, which is not to my knowledge being electrified. Even after Blackpool North has been electrified, there would only be a relatively small amount of diesel under wires on that route.

 

[lancastrian]

Only in the imagination of certain forum members...

Well it is certainly in my imagination, BUT when you actually look at it logically. Until the closure of Blackpool Central in 1964, the main route into Blackpool was through the coast line. The towns of Lytham, Fairhaven & St Annes, along with the Southern area of Blackpool have a greater population than Poulton le Fylde, Layton, and the North Shore to Fleetwood area.

I remember catching a train from Birmingham to Lytham direct in 1971, when it was still the main route into Blackpool. What really needs to be done with this line is to double track it between Lytham & St Annes, with two platforms at Lytham, Ansdell and St Annes. and extend the line along the old route to a new station as near as possible on the old Central site, with two platforms and electrify the whole route.

I know that today the services go to Colne, but for over a hundred years the services actually went to Manchester Victoria. With electrification this could happen again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well it is certainly in my imagination, BUT when you actually look at it logically. Until the closure of Blackpool Central in 1964, the main route into Blackpool was through the coast line. The towns of Lytham, Fairhaven & St Annes, along with the Southern area of Blackpool have a greater population than Poulton le Fylde, Layton, and the North Shore to Fleetwood area.

I know that today the services go to Colne, but for over a hundred years the services actually went to Manchester Victoria. With electrification this could happen again.

There must have been some thought given to the route to Blackpool when the electrification process was being decided and the existing double-tracked one to Blackpool North railway station, serving as it does, Kirkham and Wesham and Poulton le Fylde would appear to offer the better route in terms of operational requirements and speed.

With regard to Blackpool Central railway station, do not forget the "new fast line" that was built by the Victorians to strike across mid-Fylde to obviate the need for hugging the coastal route and its many railway stations. My allegiance to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway is well-known on this forum and you have to accept the fact that those in that company knew what they were doing when that new route was planned and the reasons behind their thinking.

I fear that the planned electrified route into Blackpool North railway station will be the one that will offer the faster route on the Manchester to Blackpool route when the Lancashire Triangle has been fully electrified.

I am not decrying the coastal route railway one jot, but in my eyes, this is best viewed as a Preston to Blackpool commuter route that serves many communities and one that is already served by a number of bus services in addition to its rail services. If, in the eyes of those charged with railway infrastructural and operational matters, there was a need for the reinstatement of a double tracked alternative route from Preston to Blackpool as part of through services from regions further afield, the matter would have been looked at in the light of the cold financial day and a decision made that there was no financial case for this.

 

[PR1Berske]

Not sure Blackpool South line would suit being converted to tram-train or entirely trams, and I used to be an advocate for that. For as long as the Pleasure Beach has a station, there is a need for trains to carry tourists, a task for which trams are ill suited.

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure Blackpool South line would suit being converted to tram-train or entirely trams, and I used to be an advocate for that. For as long as the Pleasure Beach has a station, there is a need for trains to carry tourists, a task for which trams are ill suited.

Don't really see the logic of that view, considering trams have been quite happily carrying mostly tourists for nearly 130 years, within a couple of hundred yards of Pleasure Beach station.

 

[PR1Berske]

Don't really see the logic of that view, considering trams have been quite happily carrying mostly tourists for nearly 130 years, within a couple of hundred yards of Pleasure Beach station.

Not on a passenger route to Kirkham they haven't.

 

[edwin_m]

Not on a passenger route to Kirkham they haven't.

Well if you have a specific concern with that specific route why not say so rather than making a sweeping general statement which doesn't help at all with whatever point you are trying to make?

Perhaps the best solution would be a tram-train, parallel single lines or even a back-to-back terminus so that heavy rail provides the service to Preston and trams provide the service to Blackpool?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps the best solution would be a tram-train, parallel single lines or even a back-to-back terminus so that heavy rail provides the service to Preston and trams provide the service to Blackpool?

I have opened up a new "Tram-train master thread" on the "Other Transport" forum, so this Blackpool-specific tram-train debate could continue on there.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

While it would be great to see that line electrified (and improved with some double tracking and extension to central Blackpool), I'm not sure the 'diesel island' argument would really wash here. The trains on it do after all continue to Blackburn and Colne, which is not to my knowledge being electrified. Even after Blackpool North has been electrified, there would only be a relatively small amount of diesel under wires on that route.

IMO spending money on the South Line would be a huge shot in the arm for Central and South Shore.
With only 1 tph and a 2 coach pacer, its usage is very suppressed. Well used by locals, and absolutely rammed weekends with Pleasure Beach etc customers.
There has been talks with SINTROPHER etc eg convert trams to Kirkham etc.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ty_Fylde_Coast.pptx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

I would like to see..
Continue with Heavy Rail.
Eventually extend to Central, 4 platform terminus, OLE and double track. Through trains to Manchester Victoria as per up to the 80's

A good start would be a dynamic passing loop at Lytham St Annes.
On the cards at the moment - Absolutely Sweet Fanny Adams!

 

[lancastrian]

There must have been some thought given to the route to Blackpool when the electrification process was being decided and the existing double-tracked one to Blackpool North railway station, serving as it does, Kirkham and Wesham and Poulton le Fylde would appear to offer the better route in terms of operational requirements and speed.

With regard to Blackpool Central railway station, do not forget the "new fast line" that was built by the Victorians to strike across mid-Fylde to obviate the need for hugging the coastal route and its many railway stations. My allegiance to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway is well-known on this forum and you have to accept the fact that those in that company knew what they were doing when that new route was planned and the reasons behind their thinking.

I fear that the planned electrified route into Blackpool North railway station will be the one that will offer the faster route on the Manchester to Blackpool route when the Lancashire Triangle has been fully electrified.

I am not decrying the coastal route railway one jot, but in my eyes, this is best viewed as a Preston to Blackpool commuter route that serves many communities and one that is already served by a number of bus services in addition to its rail services. If, in the eyes of those charged with railway infrastructural and operational matters, there was a need for the reinstatement of a double tracked alternative route from Preston to Blackpool as part of through services from regions further afield, the matter would have been looked at in the light of the cold financial day and a decision made that there was no financial case for this.

I know that you have a strong allegiance to the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, so do I, and yes I know it was the L&Y as the majority owner of the Preston & Wyre lines in the Fylde, that built the Marton line (Now sadly under the M55 and Yeadon Way, straight into the car park on the old railway land near Blackpool South). They built that line primarily so that the excursion trains would not delay the very important commuter services from the Flyde Coastal Towns to Manchester. The L&Y knew the importance of these services and were determined to see that any seasonal traffic did not cause them any problems.

I can accept that time wise from Preston to Blackpool North is quicker, BUT the coast line, especially if extended to a new station close to the site of Blackpool Central, and a decent dynamic loop covering the stations of Lytham, Ansdell & St Annes. Along with the route being electrified and the services being run to Manchester, I am sure would see a decent increase of usage on this line.

It is the fact that it is basically a long siding, which only one train at a time can run, which totally restricts any potential growth of passenger usage. The people of St Annes, Ansdell, Fairhaven, Lytham, Moss Side and hopefully one day Wrea Green deserve as decent a service as those from Blackpool, Layton, Poulton & Kirkham.

The Fylde Coast line is basically yet another example of supposed money saving by running it down to such a basic service, that will cost far more than any savings that have been made to bring it back up to a useful route and service.

And as an aside, if the line had been in Wales, Scotland or Greater London, it would have been improved and electrified by now anyway. Sorry to go on but I do get really annoyed that a very useful route is restricted by those in Authority at Notwork Rail or at DaFT. My tax money should be spent on line in Lancashire not in other places.

End of rant.

 

[Welshman]

I appreciate that the trackbed of the Marton line is now lost, but would there be insuperable difficulties in re-doubling the Coast line to Blackpool South?

That should allow a more frequent service than that now offered.

 

[PR1Berske]

I know that you have a strong allegiance to the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, so do I, and yes I know it was the L&Y as the majority owner of the Preston & Wyre lines in the Fylde, that built the Marton line (Now sadly under the M55 and Yeadon Way, straight into the car park on the old railway land near Blackpool South). They built that line primarily so that the excursion trains would not delay the very important commuter services from the Flyde Coastal Towns to Manchester. The L&Y knew the importance of these services and were determined to see that any seasonal traffic did not cause them any problems.

I can accept that time wise from Preston to Blackpool North is quicker, BUT the coast line, especially if extended to a new station close to the site of Blackpool Central, and a decent dynamic loop covering the stations of Lytham, Ansdell & St Annes. Along with the route being electrified and the services being run to Manchester, I am sure would see a decent increase of usage on this line.

It is the fact that it is basically a long siding, which only one train at a time can run, which totally restricts any potential growth of passenger usage. The people of St Annes, Ansdell, Fairhaven, Lytham, Moss Side and hopefully one day Wrea Green deserve as decent a service as those from Blackpool, Layton, Poulton & Kirkham.

The Fylde Coast line is basically yet another example of supposed money saving by running it down to such a basic service, that will cost far more than any savings that have been made to bring it back up to a useful route and service.

And as an aside, if the line had been in Wales, Scotland or Greater London, it would have been improved and electrified by now anyway. Sorry to go on but I do get really annoyed that a very useful route is restricted by those in Authority at Notwork Rail or at DaFT. My tax money should be spent on line in Lancashire not in other places.

End of rant.

I have written about such things before on this forum.

London and Scotland (not so much Wales imo) get far, far more rail investment than the North, and this forum has often looked as though it supports this as perfectly acceptable.

There's so many ways that Northern England has been ignored that doubtlessly General Discussion has heard them 100 times or more, but I completely agree with you that the Blackpool South line is a great example of what happens when a line in need of support has the misfortune of being in Lancashire rather than Lewisham.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I know that you have a strong allegiance to the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, so do I, and yes I know it was the L&Y as the majority owner of the Preston & Wyre lines in the Fylde, that built the Marton line (Now sadly under the M55 and Yeadon Way, straight into the car park on the old railway land near Blackpool South). They built that line primarily so that the excursion trains would not delay the very important commuter services from the Flyde Coastal Towns to Manchester. The L&Y knew the importance of these services and were determined to see that any seasonal traffic did not cause them any problems.

I can accept that time wise from Preston to Blackpool North is quicker, BUT the coast line, especially if extended to a new station close to the site of Blackpool Central, and a decent dynamic loop covering the stations of Lytham, Ansdell & St Annes. Along with the route being electrified and the services being run to Manchester, I am sure would see a decent increase of usage on this line.

It is the fact that it is basically a long siding, which only one train at a time can run, which totally restricts any potential growth of passenger usage. The people of St Annes, Ansdell, Fairhaven, Lytham, Moss Side and hopefully one day Wrea Green deserve as decent a service as those from Blackpool, Layton, Poulton & Kirkham.

The Fylde Coast line is basically yet another example of supposed money saving by running it down to such a basic service, that will cost far more than any savings that have been made to bring it back up to a useful route and service.

And as an aside, if the line had been in Wales, Scotland or Greater London, it would have been improved and electrified by now anyway. Sorry to go on but I do get really annoyed that a very useful route is restricted by those in Authority at Notwork Rail or at DaFT. My tax money should be spent on line in Lancashire not in other places.

End of rant.

My recollection is that very few regular timetabled trains used the direct route. One of the few was the summer Bradford to Blackpool train that left Preston about 11.00 am. I bought my half fare day return from Preston to Blackpool to get a ride over the direct route. It was also a chance to travel behind a foreign engine - A K3.
Anyone know if my recollection about the paucity of regular trains on the direct route is correct?
Jeff
PS just remembered that I also travelled on a late evening Blackpool to Birmingham train on this route. Again, I think, A summer timetable train.

 

[Bald Rick]

IMO spending money on the South Line would be a huge shot in the arm for Central and South Shore.
With only 1 tph and a 2 coach pacer, its usage is very suppressed. Well used by locals, and absolutely rammed weekends with Pleasure Beach etc customers.
There has been talks with SINTROPHER etc eg convert trams to Kirkham etc.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ty_Fylde_Coast.pptx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

I would like to see..
Continue with Heavy Rail.
Eventually extend to Central, 4 platform terminus, OLE and double track. Through trains to Manchester Victoria as per up to the 80's

A good start would be a dynamic passing loop at Lytham St Annes.
On the cards at the moment - Absolutely Sweet Fanny Adams!

Good luck with all that.

No doubt use is suppressed, but nowhere near enough to justify anything like this sort of investment. I was on the branch this Friday mid-evening, heading to St Annes and expecting it to be heaving given it was a sunny Bank Holiday weekend. Maybe 40% of the seats were taken on our 2 car pacer. So even if there is 5x the demand out there, it would barely fill a 4 car EMU once an hour on a peak service at peak holiday time. Of course my experience may not be typical.

 

[Darren R]

Bald Rick - I think you just got lucky! Obviously not every train is rammed to the gunnels, but a lot are. Sometimes it's just not funny - especially on a summer Saturday!

I think this is a line that has a great deal of suppressed demand. Not sure it justifies electrification or re-doubling throughout (let alone both), but it wouldn't take much extra infrastructure to vastly improve both service levels and punctuality. A strategically placed loop along with the necessary signalling would do it. The track bed is still unimpeded and from memory it wouldn't require the current track to be repositioned either. Even the platforms are still intact.

In regards regular timetabled services via the Marton cut-off line, I don't think the Lanky ever ran them - it was excursion and holiday traffic only (of which there were vast numbers during the Wakes Weeks, more than enough to justify building it.) Even the fastest expresses to Blackpool Central called at Lytham, Ansdell & Fairhaven and St Annes. (Including the 5.10pm from Manchester Vcitoria Club Car service, which ran non-stop from Salford as far as Lytham.)

 

[Lankyline]

There was a proposal not too long ago to make the Blackpool south line into a tram line to connect with Preston, using Blackpool trams (i think there was an article in the Lancs Evening Post about this ?) this was being explored by Blackpool council & Blackpool transport, but its all gone quite now !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry should have said quiet, not enough coffee yet !!

Should have read the earlier posts ! but this was a little different in that the propsal was to connect with Preston not just Kirkham

 

[Sheepy1209]

If anything ever comes of the Blackpool tramway / North Station link won't that have an effect on the viability of the line from Blackpool South to St Annes?

Combined with through ticketing, I can see many visitors preferring a fast direct train to Blackpool North, changing onto a frequent tram service, over a change at Preston onto whatever long-in-the-tooth DMU stock is being used on the Lytham line.

For locals, I agree that there is a lot of suppressed demand from the south Fylde towns; we're talking affluent people who would use a (non-Pacer) train but wouldn't be seen dead on a bus. People whose most convenient shopping destination is Preston, not Blackpool. Business owners and a smattering of showbiz types, never mind all the rich pensioners. People here wouldn't catch a direct train to London from Blackpool, they all drive to Preston and park there for the day. I also have my doubts about how many people from this area go beyond Preston, a shuttle service might be more effective.

Extending the trams along this line is attractive to a point, but to my mind they'd need to go through Warton and Preston Docks - a roundabout route through Kirkham wouldn't be much use to most people. However, I would like to see a tram extension via Squires Gate to St Annes, if it integrated with a more frequent heavy rail service there.

Anyway, wasn't this a thread about electrification?

 

[chorleyjeff]

Good luck with all that.

No doubt use is suppressed, but nowhere near enough to justify anything like this sort of investment. I was on the branch this Friday mid-evening, heading to St Annes and expecting it to be heaving given it was a sunny Bank Holiday weekend. Maybe 40% of the seats were taken on our 2 car pacer. So even if there is 5x the demand out there, it would barely fill a 4 car EMU once an hour on a peak service at peak holiday time. Of course my experience may not be typical.

I went mid morning to St Annes two weeks ago and the Pacer unit was very badly overloaded and made worse by the large number of suitcases on the floor. And we had to wait quite a long time outside Kirkham waiting for a train to leave the branch. No train turned up for the afternoon train back. I got the bus back to Preston. A bad railway experience.
There should at least be passing loops. And what is a "dynamic" loop?
Jeff

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Anyway, wasn't this a thread about electrification?

I agree it has gone slightly OT, it started with the thought that Blackpool South-Kirkham should be an inexpensive infill once Kirkham - Preston is electrified.