Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In theory, yes - but the cost would be horrendous. To have a decent fast line, you would probably need a junction just south of the A580 overbridge, and then build a completely new, gently curved, alignment for 2-3 miles, joining the Liverpool - Manchester line somewhere to the west of the former Kenyon Junction. Although the area is mostly farmland with gaps between houses, you would need new bridges or tunnels to cross the A574 and maybe one or two other roads. Plus, as the L&M is in a cutting, substantial earthworks would be needed to make a new junction.

I thank you for this answer which has answered my query totally. I really only considered the land being farmland and was not really sure of the infrastructural implications. I made assumptions that this line was absolutely and definitely taking all the new projected electrified traffic to destinations north of Lancaster which currently pass through Bolton station.

 

[Geeves]

Just to add to watchers comments, if you ever see the 17:10 or the 17:45 going before the express jobs they only get to the first signal outside the station. After that you can be waiting for quite a while till the the class 1s get their act together! Man North will try and run things properly!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst we are on these lines, does anyone know if the service provision to and from Moss Side station will show any future all-year round improvements ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whilst we are on these lines, does anyone know if the service provision to and from Moss Side station will show any future all-year round improvements ?

What station at Moss Side?

Edit: Sorry, did not recall there was a station of this name on the Blackpool South branch (though I have traversed the line).
I was thinking of the rather more high-profile district of south Manchester, which never had a station.
Two more contrasting places with the same name would be hard to imagine.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Maybe Moss Side on the Blackpool South line? If so, then I'm not really sure I comprehend what's being asked...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe Moss Side on the Blackpool South line? If so, then I'm not really sure I comprehend what's being asked...

Someone on another sub-forum has since stated that this station will not have trains stopping there from November. Unlike most of the Northern timetables that carry on until 8th December, the timetable number 9 ... (Colne to Preston and Blackpool South) only goes up to 30th September (this coming Sunday) so presumably the "winter timetable" will be starting on the line from Preston to Blackpool South quite early this year.

I understand the Northern timetable 17 (Manchester to Chester, via Altrincham) also ends on 30th September.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Someone on another sub-forum has since stated that this station will not have trains stopping there from November. Unlike most of the Northern timetables that carry on until 8th December, the timetable number 9 ... (Colne to Preston and Blackpool South) only goes up to 30th September (this coming Sunday) so presumably the "winter timetable" will be starting on the line from Preston to Blackpool South quite early this year.

I understand the Northern timetable 17 (Manchester to Chester, via Altrincham also ends on 30th September.

New timetable for Blackpool South-Colne - http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/timetables/20120914/9.pdf. Like the Mid-Cheshire line and some others it changes to allow for leaf fall, though alterations are only minor. As you can see in the link, Moss Side appears to have the same service as every other station on that line does

Do you have a link to the post / thread which detailed the alleged changes to Moss Side?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, there are some engineering works west of Preston in November on weekends resulting in pretty much the closure of both lines to Blackpool, but I'll need to see the original post before I can comment further.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As you can see in the link, Moss Side appears to have the same service as every other station on that line does ....Do you have a link to the post / thread which detailed the alleged changes to Moss Side?

The date for Moss Side was given as 4th November 2012, coupled with other updated information on the works being carried out at both Liverpool James Street station and Liverpool Central station which was amongst other information kindly put forward by Eagle as part of a posting of information upon "The next station is" quiz sometime last weekend.

Perhaps you could send him a PM upon this matter of Moss Side station.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well work has started on the Preston - Blackpool section. Going through Kirkham by car, the Treales Road (Carr Lane) all closed and traffic diversions. The bridge work is taking place pre-electrification. I also noted going down Lea Road that Darkinson Lane is closed so working on the bridge very near Salwick station. No gantries in place yet. Work has definitely started which is great.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well work has started on the Preston - Blackpool section. Going through Kirkham by car, the Treales Road (Carr Lane) all closed and traffic diversions. The bridge work is taking place pre-electrification. I also noted going down Lea Road that Darkinson Lane is closed so working on the bridge very near Salwick station. No gantries in place yet. Work has definitely started which is great.

I doubt masts will appear on the Blackpool line before 2014.
Nothing west of Earlestown or Wigan yet.
Still plenty to do over Chat Moss.

 

[Geeves]

On a related note about gantries it looked as though some work was going on outside of Salford Crescent foundation wise on the Windsor Bridge South junction the other day. I'm not sure if they will put the gantries up along the link on phase 1 or wait till phase 2. Something was happening anyway!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

On a related note about gantries it looked as though some work was going on outside of Salford Crescent foundation wise on the Windsor Bridge South junction the other day. I'm not sure if they will put the gantries up along the link on phase 1 or wait till phase 2. Something was happening anyway!

More likely for the new station building, the Phase 4 electrification design isn't even let yet!

 

[Viscount702]

As Mr Locke says it is probably connected to the New Station building etc.

The Link below (if it works) takes you the NR website giving details of what is being done.

If you download the Pdf file Salford Crescent
download 2.1 MB on the right of the page it shows the plans.

I notice that they are showing on these plans the possibility of 2 new platforms in the future


http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...RADE-FOR-STATION-1ba3/SearchCategoryID-5.aspx

 

[Phil6219]

On the subject of Salford Crescent, I was there on Tuesday to film the boat train (and learnt a very harsh life lesson - don't film the binliner when you saw the railtour creeping round the other corner). It is very crowded and while the plan to relocate the booking office is a good idea I hope they actually remove that structure to open up more space in that area.

On Tuesday (whilst holding my head in anger and shame) walking from the Manchester end of P1 to the pacer which had just arrived into the platform I tried to pass a "wonderful" group of students stood right by the pinch point by the ticket office, they were not waiting for this train and as I tried to pass one turned around (complete with their rucksack over both shoulders) and did a fairly good job of pushing me into the front corner of the (thankfully) stopped train. Needless to say I damn near lost it with said person and made it clear that if I ever saw them do it again I'd bleeding end them. If it wasn't for the fact the 4 foot was full of mess I'd have been tempted to go for the amateur dramatics and clung onto the handle over on the front of the train. Even the driver didn't look impressed and gave said person a b*king as I boarded.

Out of interest I believe the cement bases for the overheads have been built along Chat Moss, have the stanchions been put in place yet? I was tempted to go over to Astley Crossing last weekend to film 60099 but as I was short on time I didn't want to go and find that the stanchions had been erected and destroyed the shot. Now I know how the guys on the ECML felt when they lost their photographic top spots to electrification.

Phil

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of interest I believe the cement bases for the overheads have been built along Chat Moss, have the stanchions been put in place yet? I was tempted to go over to Astley Crossing last weekend to film 60099 but as I was short on time I didn't want to go and find that the stanchions had been erected and destroyed the shot. Now I know how the guys on the ECML felt when they lost their photographic top spots to electrification.
Phil

More masts going up every night.
Still nothing at Astley itself though, or west from there to Glazebury.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would like to know if any isolated part of the Chat Moss route is still on less stable ground than others, when the last track groundworks were checked. If so, where are these.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I would like to know if any isolated part of the Chat Moss route is still on less stable ground than others, when the last track groundworks were checked. If so, where are these.

The whole Moss is still fairly unstable (as in springy) which is why this section will only be raised to 75mph rather than to the 90mph the rest of the route is getting.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well drove through Treales today and the Carr Lane bridge is finished about 1 mile before Kirkham and Wesham station. Brand new bridge with a less severe road curve but still severe. Darkinson Lane is still closed so the bridge by Salwick station is still being worked on. I saw no other evidence of electrification work on the Preston-Blackpool section.

 

[lancastrian]

I keep hearing rumors of Farnworth tunnels being demolished entirely, is there any truth? I guess it could be done with only the A666 being above.

I guess this follows the secondary rumor of the Bolton to Manchester line being closed for 4 or 5 months next year?

Although this seems to make reasonable sense, but if you looked at how high the A666 is above the Farnworth Tunnels, you would see that it would require a great deal of excavation and much retaining walls to hold back the sides of the excavation.

The sensible thing to do would be to close the line and completely re-bore both tunnels into one good double track tunnel which would be large enough for the electrification. This has been done a number of times before, such as at Woodhead and Harecastle. I am sure there may have been others, but doing that would be the best thing to deal with the Farnworth Tunnel situation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought the plan for Farnworth Tunnels was to:
a) close the western (larger) bore for a short period to gauge-clear it (lowering track). Single line working through the eastern bore.
b) switch the gauge-clearing work to the eastern (smaller) bore during a longer possession, with a lot more reconstruction work needed.
Single line working through the western bore.

This would keep a single line operational through most of the work, over a period of months.
Maybe plans have changed.

 

[Nym]

That would benice, but it would mean diverting on mass everything running from North of Preston to work properly, and potentially need additional points work at Farnworth.

I think I came up with a provisional timetbale for it before a while back.

 

[lancastrian]

That would benice, but it would mean diverting on mass everything running from North of Preston to work properly, and potentially need additional points work at Farnworth.

Once upon a time, you could just have diverted the Manchester services to Victoria, by either sending via Radcliffe and down what is now the Metrolink, or even right across through Bury and turning south at Castleton Junction.

Its easy to see that there was no need for these alternate routes to Manchester, NOT. Just another example of the short term, blinkered thinking that took place over the railways in the 1960's and early 70's.

 

[Nym]

Once upon a time, you could just have diverted the Manchester services to Victoria, by either sending via Radcliffe and down what is now the Metrolink, or even right across through Bury and turning south at Castleton Junction.

Its easy to see that there was no need for these alternate routes to Manchester, NOT. Just another example of the short term, blinkered thinking that took place over the railways in the 1960's and early 70's.

Yay, someone agrees with me

Yes, if one still had a heavy rail link we could quite happly close the route via Farnworth with a total posession for a reasonable length of time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once upon a time, you could just have diverted the Manchester services to Victoria, by either sending via Radcliffe and down what is now the Metrolink

Was that the route from Bolton that passed through Bradley Fold station before joining Radcliffe at the junction platrform there ?

 

[lancastrian]

Was that the route from Bolton that passed through Bradley Fold station before joining Radcliffe at the junction platform there ?

Yes the route left the direct Manchester line at Bolton East Junction, through Bradley Fold station, directed right at Bradley Fold Junction, through Ainsworth Lane Station and into Radcliffe Station.

 

[terryc]

I just think that NR will do what it always does... come up with the easiest and cheapest solution. Passanger convienience will be at the bottom of the list.
They'll divert all Manchester & Preston and beyond services via Chat Moss and Parkside / Golborne junctions. (The latter, IMO, is in severe need of an upgrade, with the 'spur' just single track for 50m or so)
All local services between Salford and Chorley will be bustituted.
If we're very, very lucky, and the first part of the upgrade is carried out between Lostock Jn & Bolton, prior to the remainder, that would enable a local service to operate between Bolton and Wigan which would at least enable Boltonites to travel onwards in both directions.
I suspect that it'll be the 'two fingers' to the Chorleyites

 

[The Planner]

I just think that NR will do what it always does... come up with the easiest and cheapest solution. Passanger convienience will be at the bottom of the list.

I'm not sure what else they are meant to do ? There isn't a bottomless pit of cash to use.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes the route left the direct Manchester line at Bolton East Junction, through Bradley Fold station, directed right at Bradley Fold Junction, through Ainsworth Lane Station and into Radcliffe Station.

You set me thinking with that last answer, as the mention of Ainsworth Lane station that you state was one that was something that did not register with me. There is an Ainsworth Lane in my old maps, but this is in Bolton and I could not trace one in Radcliffe.

However, after Bradley Fold station and Bradley Fold Junction, the line approached Ainsworth Road in Radcliffe then bifurcated, with the southern line running into Radcliffe Station. The northern line at the bifurcation ran under Ainsworth Road, where the station of Radcliffe Black Lane was situated. The line then ran on from there, running in parallel with Bury and Bolton Road until arriving at Bury Knowsley Street station.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From my research for ym dissertation, (note this is only interviews with staff).

They are looking at putting in some temporary S&C, and having one bore open with a single line section.

One bore is capable of being electrified this will remain open, one is a tube and so track cannot be lowered so needs a complete demolish and redo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just think that NR will do what it always does... come up with the easiest and cheapest solution. Passanger convienience will be at the bottom of the list.
They'll divert all Manchester & Preston and beyond services via Chat Moss and Parkside / Golborne junctions. (The latter, IMO, is in severe need of an upgrade, with the 'spur' just single track for 50m or so)
All local services between Salford and Chorley will be bustituted.
If we're very, very lucky, and the first part of the upgrade is carried out between Lostock Jn & Bolton, prior to the remainder, that would enable a local service to operate between Bolton and Wigan which would at least enable Boltonites to travel onwards in both directions.
I suspect that it'll be the 'two fingers' to the Chorleyites

Read my above so clearly your very bitter post is wrong.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry if this point has been raised previously in passing, but has there been any official statement on the type of provision of the Manchester to Clitheroe service during the enforced line closure. for those people who use this service for commuting directly into Manchester ?