Joseph_Locke
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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I'll count those on the Down next time...
I guess they must be on your patch.
Must be interesting to see a route where nothing much has ever happened (except resignalling?) cope with the revolution of electrification.
Must be the first section of the L&Y proper to be electrified (ignoring Salford Central-Victoria)?
And Holcombe Brook/Bury/Liverpool Exchange routes...
Doesn't the construction of the Windsor Link count as something happening?
Darren R
Established Member
I find that slightly ironic given that The Lanky was at the forefront of pioneering electrification schemes. The First World War put paid to their plans to electrify the Calder Valley main line, possibly even using a/c overhead.
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
I'll count those on the Down next time...
I guess they must be on your patch.
Must be interesting to see a route where nothing much has ever happened (except resignalling?) cope with the revolution of electrification.
Resignalling? You can't count Blackrod re-locking as resignalling, and prior to that it was probably some time in the 80s when the last major signalling scheme happened, at Euxton and Crescent!
It's not without its excitement, a schemes go, but I'd better leave it there (I'm probably far too easy to identify and chastise for leaking things).
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Checked out the Down line today from Salford Crescent to Euxton Jn.
The same preliminary excavations for masts as on the Up line are visible between Lostock Jn and the L&L canal bridge south of Chorley.
My plan to count the bases between Salford Crescent and Central was defeated by the trains today being diverted unusually via Ordsall Lane into Victoria.
Looked like big cranes were at work on the Oldfield Road bridge.
There are no bases on the Ordsall Lane branch after Windsor Bridge South Jn.
The same preliminary excavations for masts as on the Up line are visible between Lostock Jn and the L&L canal bridge south of Chorley.
My plan to count the bases between Salford Crescent and Central was defeated by the trains today being diverted unusually via Ordsall Lane into Victoria.
Looked like big cranes were at work on the Oldfield Road bridge.
There are no bases on the Ordsall Lane branch after Windsor Bridge South Jn.
As Joseph Locke seems to be involved in this scheme I wonder if he could give some general details to satisfy my curiosity as a non railway person.
My impression from reading the updates on the Liverpool / Manchester electrification thread it surprised me that the overal order in which construction is done seems a bit random (I'm sure it's not). For example we hear of 'missing' masts / bases etc... here and there. I would have thought that you'd aim to start and one end and progressively move to the other end doing the required work to erect the mast and add thre required fittings for each mast in turn. I could imagine that if there are masts in 'difficult' positions (viaducts, embankments,...) may need to be taken 'out of sequence'. In essence you create a travelling production line. However my impression is that this tends not to be so much the case.
Am I mistaken or is there a good reason for the order things are done in that I miss? I'm thinking of the process around erecting masts and wiring them, not the prepatory work such as the bridges / tunnels.
My impression from reading the updates on the Liverpool / Manchester electrification thread it surprised me that the overal order in which construction is done seems a bit random (I'm sure it's not). For example we hear of 'missing' masts / bases etc... here and there. I would have thought that you'd aim to start and one end and progressively move to the other end doing the required work to erect the mast and add thre required fittings for each mast in turn. I could imagine that if there are masts in 'difficult' positions (viaducts, embankments,...) may need to be taken 'out of sequence'. In essence you create a travelling production line. However my impression is that this tends not to be so much the case.
Am I mistaken or is there a good reason for the order things are done in that I miss? I'm thinking of the process around erecting masts and wiring them, not the prepatory work such as the bridges / tunnels.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Both NW Phase 1 and 2 had several stretches of route being constructed at the same time, maybe as many as 6 separate locations on Phase 2.
They seem to start with the simple country sections (between stations), then progress to the more difficult bits (embankments, cuttings, stations, the join with existing wires etc).
They have 3 sorts of foundations for different ground conditions: basic concrete, tubular piles and special concrete, and they seem to be done separately, maybe by different teams.
On Phase 1 the route foundations over Chat Moss got special attention and were mostly done by a different contractor.
On Phase 2 there are different contractors on two viaducts needing one-off foundations: Sankey and Carr Mill.
Special planning consent was required for the design in heritage places like Rainhill and Earlestown stations and Sankey Viaduct.
If the rest of the project had been on time these might have held everything up but in the end it doesn't seem to have done.
From what I have seen, getting the steelwork up is the first critical path, and on Phase 2 the embankment works near Huyton seem to have been difficult.
Then the final fitting out with the small bits (after the wires go up) seems to go critical.
That seems to be all down to the logistics plan and availability of resources.
On the GW scheme, you can also see the work moving between places rather randomly, although they are using factory trains.
There are currently at least 4 different work sites there at the moment.
It is certainly not a case of starting at one end and working down the track to the other.
Manchester-Blackpool looks like following the same pattern.
They seem to start with the simple country sections (between stations), then progress to the more difficult bits (embankments, cuttings, stations, the join with existing wires etc).
They have 3 sorts of foundations for different ground conditions: basic concrete, tubular piles and special concrete, and they seem to be done separately, maybe by different teams.
On Phase 1 the route foundations over Chat Moss got special attention and were mostly done by a different contractor.
On Phase 2 there are different contractors on two viaducts needing one-off foundations: Sankey and Carr Mill.
Special planning consent was required for the design in heritage places like Rainhill and Earlestown stations and Sankey Viaduct.
If the rest of the project had been on time these might have held everything up but in the end it doesn't seem to have done.
From what I have seen, getting the steelwork up is the first critical path, and on Phase 2 the embankment works near Huyton seem to have been difficult.
Then the final fitting out with the small bits (after the wires go up) seems to go critical.
That seems to be all down to the logistics plan and availability of resources.
On the GW scheme, you can also see the work moving between places rather randomly, although they are using factory trains.
There are currently at least 4 different work sites there at the moment.
It is certainly not a case of starting at one end and working down the track to the other.
Manchester-Blackpool looks like following the same pattern.
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thealexweb
Member
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Is the overrunning of Phase 2 affecting the progress of the Manchester to Preston work? Shouldn't we be expecting to see more happening with 22 months to go? Sorry if I seem impatient, its just I am one of those who have been waiting for real progress since the original announcement in 2009.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I'm sure the simple answer is Yes, but it is hard to know just how bad the impact is.
They have started putting bases in around Salford Crescent, which is something.
Phase 1 (15 miles of double track) took 23 months.
Phase 2 (30 miles) is going to exceed 24 months (started in March 2013).
Salford-Euxton is 25 miles, but they are also supposed to be doing Preston-Blackpool (17 miles) and the complex Victoria-Stalybridge/Ashburys line (8+ miles) in essentially the same timescale, all over the next 2 years.
DfT is pressing for Lostock-Wigan (8 miles) and Oxenholme-Windermere (10 miles of single track) to be done soon after ("by 2017").
Plenty of advance clearance work has been done in the Chorley area, and soon on the Farnworth tunnels, but that is not actually getting the wires up.
There seems to be a lot of work beginning on the Manchester - Euxton line shortly, numerous bridge closures and rebuilds all at the same time and as stated clearance work is well underway for mast bases from Lostock past Chorley, then the Farnworth tunnels, wonder how long it will be before we start seeing the odd mast appear on the open stretches between stations
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
The trick is to get everything else done first, then do the OLE. However if we did that it'd take forever - there were some very rare "at Windsor Bridge South" blocks over Christmas, so they dived in when they had a chance (the next ones are a year away, which is a bit too late). The bridge reconstructions started 9 months ago (for road closure and diversion reasons), Chorley Tunnel lowering is done, Farnworth Tunnel (and perhaps parts of Bolton) will be done summer this year. Meanwhile the OLE costruction team nip up to Euxton cos that's easy, and they will rip through it at speed, with ony a few items to wait for all the way down to Lostock Junction (e.g. two portals on a listed viaduct).
The way Phases 1 and 2 have gone about things has left many of the difficult structure problems until last, meaning there are always one or two masts missing in a wire run, which in turn makes for ineffecient working and rework.
Certainly on Phase 4 the hard bits have been tackled first, so it should all come together better; the advantages being able to watch, learn and avoid!
The way Phases 1 and 2 have gone about things has left many of the difficult structure problems until last, meaning there are always one or two masts missing in a wire run, which in turn makes for ineffecient working and rework.
Certainly on Phase 4 the hard bits have been tackled first, so it should all come together better; the advantages being able to watch, learn and avoid!
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Yes trying not to make a political point here - but in the 1980s and even very early 90s we had electrification teams that were trained. If only - if only, with all that experience we had just kept going - a stretch here, a stretch there. God if I was a politician with the power of god ----. Privatization and then a change of government let all that training and experience lapse.
Anyway, from here, if we keep going nice and steady and learn each successive scheme should get better and better.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
We should fervently hope so. The very best wishes for success to Mr Locke and his merry gangs!
Press release about bridge closures
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...electrification-programme-continues-2253.aspx
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...electrification-programme-continues-2253.aspx
It's a fun game to play with NR staff on here!
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Well Joseph Locke, I for one, really appreciate the in-depth knowledge and post you contribute- thank you
LDECRexile
Established Member
Well Joseph Locke, I for one, really appreciate the in-depth knowledge and post you contribute- thank you
Me too
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
Carry on! (That should not be taken as either confirmation or denial of the name of my current employer).
Well Joseph Locke, I for one, really appreciate the in-depth knowledge and post you contribute- thank you
Thank you - trying to be informative without being a whistleblower ...
If anyone's interested, there was some action near Euxton Jct today.
four ballast trains on the down line one at the signals at Euxton Jct, one just before Buckshaw Parkway (that had one of those rail guided diggers feeding from it), another one held at the south portal to chorley tunnel and another one at chorley station.
four ballast trains on the down line one at the signals at Euxton Jct, one just before Buckshaw Parkway (that had one of those rail guided diggers feeding from it), another one held at the south portal to chorley tunnel and another one at chorley station.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Absolutely - many are interested especially me. That is why there is this thread. All good news - thanks.
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Are the ballast trains in connection with track renewal?
Incidentally, is there any plan to renew the tired looking track around Bolton? Are any linseed increases planned through the station area? I'm guessing the tight curvature at the North end is a limiting factor
Incidentally, is there any plan to renew the tired looking track around Bolton? Are any linseed increases planned through the station area? I'm guessing the tight curvature at the North end is a limiting factor
Google haven't updated their maps yet to show Buckshaw Parkway, but if you look at the tree line in the centre of the map here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6725825,-2.6563072,462m/data=!3m1!1e3
That's where the digger thing was feeding itself. The trees aren't there anymore; they disappeared during the summer blockade last year.
at a guess, the train at Euxton Jct had just relieved of its load and the ones further up were waiting their turn.
If anyone is interested in the class 66, the one at buckshaw was 66617
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6725825,-2.6563072,462m/data=!3m1!1e3
That's where the digger thing was feeding itself. The trees aren't there anymore; they disappeared during the summer blockade last year.
at a guess, the train at Euxton Jct had just relieved of its load and the ones further up were waiting their turn.
If anyone is interested in the class 66, the one at buckshaw was 66617
Am told that there are plans in place to completely renew the track in and around Bolton, the north end should be completely re modled, it will be interesting to see and it rightly needs it, all under them bridges the lot.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I heard something on a similar line (pardon the pun) that the works at Bolton will be done when the line is blocked at Farnworth for the pointwork and signaling alterations.
Well that sounds like good strategy
Elecman
Established Member
No the 319s are what are going to be used on the route
That makes sense: a) they are readily available and b) there's no point in creating yet another micro-fleet.
Hi
on the bus replacement service today and saw plenty of activity at the junction of Weshoughton Road an Chorley Road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6283045,-2.6090244,470m/data=!3m1!1e3
NR appear to have a mini base there. Possibly because it's right near road access?
on the bus replacement service today and saw plenty of activity at the junction of Weshoughton Road an Chorley Road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6283045,-2.6090244,470m/data=!3m1!1e3
NR appear to have a mini base there. Possibly because it's right near road access?
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