Blackpool lines- decline and fall

[Harvester]

It was said at the talk I mentioned earlier that the K3s didn't need a banker over Copy Pit, about the only other loco. with this distinction was an 8F. Stronger than you might guess.

Indeed, with TE of about 30,000 lb, and 5ft 8in driving wheels the K3s were well suited for heavily loaded excursion traffic. I wouldn’t have thought they were all that common in the NW however?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Indeed, with TE of about 30,000 lb, and 5ft 8in driving wheels the K3s were well suited for heavily loaded excursion traffic. I wouldn’t have thought they were all that common in the NW however?

They were used on Blackpool excursions from the West Riding where power was supplied by an ex-LNE shed.

In steam days there were some amazing cases of locos. well outside their home area. Bunking Northampton one Sunday I was surprised to find a V2 on shed, but what was even more surprising was that the engine working boards showed it as booked for the 8.05 Euston the next morning. I dare not absent myself from school, but it certainly worked it. (Traction Knowledge??? Pfft!)

Almost all of the rarities went either un-noticed (everyone was at work or school) or un-reported; communication wasn't what it is now!

 

[Harvester]

In steam days there were some amazing cases of locos. well outside their home area. Bunking Northampton one Sunday I was surprised to find a V2 on shed, but what was even more surprising was that the engine working boards showed it as booked for the 8.05 Euston the next morning. I dare not absent myself from school, but it certainly worked it. (Traction Knowledge??? Pfft!)

According to the Railway Observer V2 60871 worked the 08:17 Northampton-Euston, and 12:10 Euston-Rugby on Monday 15th July 1963. Looks like this was the occasion?

 

[chorleyjeff]

Indeed, with TE of about 30,000 lb, and 5ft 8in driving wheels the K3s were well suited for heavily loaded excursion traffic. I wouldn’t have thought they were all that common in the NW however?

One worked, late 1950s, a weekday Bradford to Blackpool via the Marton direct line train leaving Preston around 11.00. I should have thought the K3 would be suitable for the job rather like an L&Y 2-6-0.

 

[Merle Haggard]

According to the Railway Observer V2 60871 worked the 08:17 Northampton-Euston, and 12:10 Euston-Rugby on Monday 15th July 1963. Looks like this was the occasion?

Indeed, that was the one (time slightly mis-remembered).

Amazing how the Northampton crew coped, isn't it? Wide firebox, vacuum loco brakes 3 cylinders not like the usual Black 5

 

[Harvester]

Indeed, that was the one (time slightly mis-remembered).

Amazing how the Northampton crew coped, isn't it? Wide firebox, vacuum loco brakes 3 cylinders not like the usual Black 5

No doubt they just shrugged and got on with the task.

I wonder where the V2 was turned and serviced after arrival at Euston. Camden was still open to steam at that time, so it’s possible a relief crew took it there, and promptly returned it to Euston for the 12:10 return working.

The following year in August 1964, I happened to be at Cricklewood depot when amazingly a Gateshead allocated V2 60976 came on shed. It had probably worked up to London via the GCR, and then on to 14A for servicing.

 

[muddythefish]

I have some very vivid memories of the Blackpool excursion traffic in the 1960s but I'll need some help from people who know the area better

Back in 1966 and 1967 my school had a cricket fixture at the grammar school in Lytham (name I can't remember - King Edwards?) and the pitch was close to the one of the lines into one of the Blackpool stations but I'm not sure which (more help please!)

Anyway, the matches were always on a Saturday and what I do remember is a constant stream of trains both ways, some hauled by steam by most in the hands of Brush Type 4s, with a mixture of maroon and blue and white coaching stock of the period. Needless to say, I found this fascinating such that I didn't pay much attention the cricket match I was playing in!

Happy memories and I wish I'd had had a camera to record it all



.

 

[Gloster]

I have some very vivid memories of the Blackpool excursion traffic in the 1960s but I'll need some help from people who know the area better

Back in 1966 and 1967 my school had a cricket fixture at the grammar school in Lytham (name I can't remember - King Edwards?) and the pitch was close to the one of the lines into one of the Blackpool stations but I'm not sure which (more help please!)

Anyway, the matches were always on a Saturday and what I do remember is a constant stream of trains both ways, some hauled by steam by most in the hands of Brush Type 4s, with a mixture of maroon and blue and white coaching stock of the period. Needless to say, I found this fascinating such that I didn't pay much attention the cricket match I was playing in!

Happy memories and I wish I'd had had a camera to record it all



.

There was a King Edward VII school close to the sea that was separated from the Kirkham-Lytham-Blackpool line by Clifton Drive South and what looks like open land. (I don’t know the area: this is from maps on the National Library of Scotland site.)

 

[muddythefish]

Thanks, looking at the map yes, that is the school and the railway close by appears to be the still-open line into Blackpool South. I believe it's served by a basic service now (from Preston?) but it was certainly busy with main-line holiday traffic in 1966 and 1967. It was a trainspotters dream

 

[tbwbear]

There was a King Edward VII school close to the sea that was separated from the Kirkham-Lytham-Blackpool line by Clifton Drive South and what looks like open land. (I don’t know the area: this is from maps on the National Library of Scotland site.)

Yes, King Edward (Boys) and Queen Mary (Girls) were between Ansdell and Fairhaven and St Anne’s.

There was open land basically between the coast and the line occupied by the schools and the main Lytham to Blackpool Road - Clifton Drive. I grew up less than a mile away.

 

[Elecman]

The line was the coast line from Kirkham to Blackpool Central

 

[Harvester]

The line was the coast line from Kirkham to Blackpool Central

Central closed in November 1964. The observations were in 1966/67, so the trains observed would be on services terminating at Blackpool South.

 

[furnessvale]

Anecdotal but when I started spotting early 1970 we used to go to Preston on Saturday morning for all the summer specials to Blackpool. Now and again we would see some unusual motive power. Peaks, Class 37, 26/27 and my favorite- named Brush 4 D1660-1677. Those were the days I remember with great fondness.

My memories start from the early 1950s when I used to sit in the pig yard or atop Pedder St bridge watching the endless procession of steam hauled specials from all over the country. Empty stock used to return to places as far afield as Lostock Hall to find stabling before returning later for passengers.

 

[Andy873]

Just spent some time this morning looking at my newly acquired June - Sept 1962 passenger WTT, there are 77 trains listed going to / from Blackpool (weekdays).

Here is also a list of "extra" trains:

7 4 am Rotherham to Blackpool North 1M09 SO 28th July & 4th August only – via Padiham.
7 15 am Radford to Blackpool North 1M95 SO 21st July - 11th August inclusive – via Padiham.
8 0 am Sheffield to Blackpool North 1M89 SO 28th July & 4th August.
8 10 am Hull to Blackpool Central 1M92 SO 14th July - 11th August inclusive.
8 35 am Barnsley to Blackpool Central 1M88 SO 28th July & 4th August.
8 50 am Blackpool Central to Glasgow Central 1S44 SO 30th June - 4th August inclusive.
9 0 am Newcastle to Blackpool Central 1M54 SO until 25th August – not advertised (Preston).
9 9 am Lincoln Central to Blackpool Central 1M98 SO.
10 7 am West Hartlepool to Blackpool Central 1M36 SO 14th July – 11th August inclusive.
10 15 am Blackpool North to Glasgow Central 1S55 SO 7th July - 4th August inclusive.
10 35 am Glasgow Central to Blackpool Central 1M21 SO until 25th August inclusive.
10 35 am Blackpool Central to Perth 1S54 SO 30th June - 18th August inclusive.
10 50 am Blackpool North to Radford 1M01 SO 28th July - 18th August inclusive.
10 58 am Blackpool Central to Bradford Exchange 1N31 SO commences 7th July.
11 20 am Blackpool Central to Newcastle 1N79 SO 30th June - 1st September inclusive.
1 5 pm Blackpool Central to West Hartlepool 1N98 SO 21st July - 18th August inclusive.
1 37 pm Blackpool Central to Barnsley 1E89 SO 21st July - 25th August inclusive.
2 20 pm Blackpool North to Sheffield Mid 1E47 SO.
2 45 pm Blackpool Central to Hull 1N94 SO 21st July - 18th August inclusive.
4 10 pm Blackpool Central to Lincoln Central 1E58 SO.

It would be interesting to compare this to summer WTT's covering Blackpool say summer period 1963, 1964, 1965 etc.

I think that would give us a clearer picture of what was going on regarding the decline.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[tbwbear]

Just spent some time this morning looking at my newly acquired June - Sept 1966 passenger WTT, there are 77 trains listed going to / from Blackpool (weekdays).

Here is also a list of "extra" trains:

That is strange. The list mentions trains to Blackpool Central. Blackpool Central was already closed by 1966. Do you mean Blackpool South ?

 

[Andy873]

That is strange. The list mentions trains to Blackpool Central. Blackpool Central was already closed by 1966. Do you mean Blackpool South ?

Sorry - me bad! it's the 1962 one! - will amend it now.

Andy.

 

[Harvester]

Just spent some time this morning looking at my newly acquired June - Sept 1962 passenger WTT, there are 77 trains listed going to / from Blackpool (weekdays).

Here is also a list of "extra" trains:

10 7 am West Hartlepool to Blackpool Central 1M36 SO 14th July – 11th August inclusive.

I can remember this train. It combined with a Saltburn portion at Stockton, and was diagramed that summer for a West Hartlepool B1 as far as Skipton. On the occasions I saw the train that year 61275 was usually in charge. It ran via Northallerton, Harrogate, Otley, Skipton, Colne, Burnley, Blackburn and Preston.

The following 1963 summer was the last. I never saw it that year, but West Hartlepool shed had by then acquired a couple of V2s, and may have used them (if permitted between Otley and Skipton).

 

[Andy873]

I can remember this train. It combined with a Saltburn portion at Stockton, and was diagramed that summer for a West Hartlepool B1 as far as Skipton. On the occasions I saw the train that year 61275 was usually in charge. It ran via Northallerton, Harrogate, Otley, Skipton, Colne, Burnley, Blackburn and Preston.

I did wonder about this trains route - thanks.

I can tell you the engines were changed at Colne.

The WTT has a light engine running from Rose Grove MPD 12 20 pm (Burnley) to Colne 12 40 pm. When the West Hartlepool train arrives at Colne 1 18 pm the engines are swapped and the train then continues for Blackpool leaving Colne 1 24 pm.

Meanwhile, the engine that brought the train to Colne waits for the train coming in the other direction (back to West Hartlepool). It arrives at Colne 2 39 pm and engines are swapped over again. The train then leaves Colne for West Hartlepool at 2 45pm.

Finally, the engine that brought the train from Blackpool leaves Colne at 4 05 pm and returns to Rose Grove MPD (Burnley) 4 24 pm.

I wonder was this the only engine change for this train?

Attached is the East Lancashire rail map from the 1962 WTT for those of you who are not familiar with the area.

Andy.

 

[tbwbear]

Sorry - me bad! it's the 1962 one! - will amend it now.

Andy.

No worries.

But if we could get hold of a WTT between 1966 and 1970 it would help answer one of the OP's questions - "How much was Blackpool South used for excursion traffic after the closure of Central".

I would say after 1965/6 "very little" if at all (certainly after the direct 3,4 platforms closed) but I could be totally wrong and the WTT along the lines of the one you have for 1962 would prove it.

As we know, the layout at South from 1966 to 1970 was just the two platforms 1 (down) and 2 (up) along with the remaining carriage sidings to the north. Looking at the public timetable (66/67) the service is relatively sparse: on weekdays between 8:30 and 17:30 there are just 13 arrivals - 10 from Manchester, 1 from Leeds, 2 from Euston. On Saturdays there are 15, 1 extra all-year from Manchester and 1 extra "summer-dated" service from Leeds. The latter is the only dated Saturday service into South - all the other Saturday summer extras in the public timetable go to North.

I think that only the London trains were loco-hauled (some still steam in 1966) and the rest of the services would have been DMU. In theory all the trains could have arrived at the down platform, turned around in the carriage sidings, and then worked out from the up platform. The Euston (loco hauled) and Leeds (with a long layover) certainly did that, but for most of the Manchester trains, it is possible that they just arrived into the up platform and turned around from there. Certainly most of the timings - e.g. arriving at something like XX16 and departing at XX30, suggest they didn't need to use the carriage sidings.

On a different note - replying to a thread about Electrification plans of the WCML, I found a document created in April 1968 by the BRB with a detailed proposal for Weaver Junction to Glasgow; it has Blackpool as a potential add on. The map clearly shows the route to Blackpool North as the candidate for wiring - which proves that even by early 1968 (2 years before the actual move) the BRB had already decided to prioritise North. One wonders how long before they had decided that.

 

[Andy873]

I would say after 1965/6 "very little" if at all (certainly after the direct 3,4 platforms closed) but I could be totally wrong and the WTT along the lines of the one you have for 1962 would prove it.

Absolutely agree with you.

Hopefully someone will have the WTT's after 1965 / 66 covering Blackpool, if they do I hope they will spend a little time letting us know the train movements.

It would give us a better understanding of what happened.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's interesting that the dated trains are in the summer rather than during the 'Illuminations' period (???September - October). Day trips by coach to the illuminations used to be common, and from distant places (I once went on one that originated in Huntingdon but picked me up locally!) - were there not similar rail ones? The coach trips drove along the front from Blackpool towards Fleetwood, an obvious advantage of road, of course.

 

[Magdalia]

Just spent some time this morning looking at my newly acquired June - Sept 1962 passenger WTT, there are 77 trains listed going to / from Blackpool (weekdays).

Here is also a list of "extra" trains:


8 0 am Sheffield to Blackpool North 1M89 SO

2 20 pm Blackpool North to Sheffield Mid 1E47 SO.

1M89 ran through the summer and was the outward working of 1E47. In 1962 1M89 and 1E47 were booked for a Darnall Brush Type 2. The Sheffield-Blackpool and return survived until 1985 and I think at one time they were the only booked passenger trains via Copy Pit.

9 9 am Lincoln Central to Blackpool Central 1M98 SO.

4 10 pm Blackpool Central to Lincoln Central 1E58 SO.

The Lincoln to Blackpool and return last ran in 1975.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2022 ==

It's interesting that the dated trains are in the summer rather than during the 'Illuminations' period (???September - October). Day trips by coach to the illuminations used to be common, and from distant places (I once went on one that originated in Huntingdon but picked me up locally!) - were there not similar rail ones? The coach trips drove along the front from Blackpool towards Fleetwood, an obvious advantage of road, of course.

Some of the dated trains are for Wakes Weeks. For example Sheffield always started on last Saturday in July.

There were huge numbers of specials for the illuminations but running from different starting points each week. In 1962 there was an Ipswich-Blackpool on 8 September followed by a Norwich-Blackpool and a Kings Lynn-Blackpool on 22 September, the Norwich train going both ways overnight starting at 2330 on Friday. The Kings Lynn train also conveyed a portion from Stevenage, joining at Peterborough, so you could have gone to see the illuminations by train from Huntingdon.

There were weekend trips too: a Friday evening Chesterfield-Blackpool returning Sunday evening ran most weekends in September and October 1962.

 

[D6130]

It's interesting that the dated trains are in the summer rather than during the 'Illuminations' period (???September - October). Day trips by coach to the illuminations used to be common, and from distant places (I once went on one that originated in Huntingdon but picked me up locally!) - were there not similar rail ones? The coach trips drove along the front from Blackpool towards Fleetwood, an obvious advantage of road, of course.

In my experience, rail trips from various parts of the country to Blackpool for the illuminations tended to be one-off special excursions (Merrymaker or Pleasure-seeker ADEXs) rather than dated scheduled services....much like the coach trips really.

 

[chorleyjeff]

My memories start from the early 1950s when I used to sit in the pig yard or atop Pedder St bridge watching the endless procession of steam hauled specials from all over the country. Empty stock used to return to places as far afield as Lostock Hall to find stabling before returning later for passengers.

Glass Bridge or Factory Lane for me. One person at a time was sent to the EL line to give us the numbers of engines on that line - you could see both the main line and EL line from the embankment at Factory Lane.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2022 ==

Just spent some time this morning looking at my newly acquired June - Sept 1962 passenger WTT, there are 77 trains listed going to / from Blackpool (weekdays).

Here is also a list of "extra" trains:

7 4 am Rotherham to Blackpool North 1M09 SO 28th July & 4th August only – via Padiham.
7 15 am Radford to Blackpool North 1M95 SO 21st July - 11th August inclusive – via Padiham.
8 0 am Sheffield to Blackpool North 1M89 SO 28th July & 4th August.
8 10 am Hull to Blackpool Central 1M92 SO 14th July - 11th August inclusive.
8 35 am Barnsley to Blackpool Central 1M88 SO 28th July & 4th August.
8 50 am Blackpool Central to Glasgow Central 1S44 SO 30th June - 4th August inclusive.
9 0 am Newcastle to Blackpool Central 1M54 SO until 25th August – not advertised (Preston).
9 9 am Lincoln Central to Blackpool Central 1M98 SO.
10 7 am West Hartlepool to Blackpool Central 1M36 SO 14th July – 11th August inclusive.
10 15 am Blackpool North to Glasgow Central 1S55 SO 7th July - 4th August inclusive.
10 35 am Glasgow Central to Blackpool Central 1M21 SO until 25th August inclusive.
10 35 am Blackpool Central to Perth 1S54 SO 30th June - 18th August inclusive.
10 50 am Blackpool North to Radford 1M01 SO 28th July - 18th August inclusive.
10 58 am Blackpool Central to Bradford Exchange 1N31 SO commences 7th July.
11 20 am Blackpool Central to Newcastle 1N79 SO 30th June - 1st September inclusive.
1 5 pm Blackpool Central to West Hartlepool 1N98 SO 21st July - 18th August inclusive.
1 37 pm Blackpool Central to Barnsley 1E89 SO 21st July - 25th August inclusive.
2 20 pm Blackpool North to Sheffield Mid 1E47 SO.
2 45 pm Blackpool Central to Hull 1N94 SO 21st July - 18th August inclusive.
4 10 pm Blackpool Central to Lincoln Central 1E58 SO.

It would be interesting to compare this to summer WTT's covering Blackpool say summer period 1963, 1964, 1965 etc.

I think that would give us a clearer picture of what was going on regarding the decline.

Thanks,
Andy.

There were many more in the mid/late 1950s. I suspect there were quite a few non regular timetabled specials such as Wakes Weeks excursions and Glasgow Fairs. But sorry can't be more precise - I was only in my mid teens.

 

[Harvester]

I did wonder about this trains route - thanks.

I can tell you the engines were changed at Colne.

The WTT has a light engine running from Rose Grove MPD 12 20 pm (Burnley) to Colne 12 40 pm. When the West Hartlepool train arrives at Colne 1 18 pm the engines are swapped and the train then continues for Blackpool leaving Colne 1 24 pm.

Meanwhile, the engine that brought the train to Colne waits for the train coming in the other direction (back to West Hartlepool). It arrives at Colne 2 39 pm and engines are swapped over again. The train then leaves Colne for West Hartlepool at 2 45pm.

It is interesting to note that the West Hartlepool engine went on a bit further than Skipton. This poses the question of, where was it turned for it’s return journey? I don’t think Colne had a loco shed with a turntable, or that a nearby triangle was available. Maybe I am wrong, but just a bit curious!!

 

[Gloster]

The 1930 25” to the mile map shows a turntable at Colne, but the shed closed by 1961. However, the table could have been retained.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some Blackpool South portions of Euston services remained steam hauled from / to Preston until "the end" (3 August 1968).

 

[D6130]

The 1930 25” to the mile map shows a turntable at Colne, but the shed closed by 1961. However, the table could have been retained.

I believe that the turntable at Colne lasted until the end of steam in 1968.

 

[Springs Branch]

Hopefully someone will have the WTT's after 1965 / 66 covering Blackpool, if they do I hope they will spend a little time letting us know the train movements.

It would give us a better understanding of what happened.

In my experience, rail trips from various parts of the country to Blackpool for the illuminations tended to be one-off special excursions (Merrymaker or Pleasure-seeker ADEXs) rather than dated scheduled services....much like the coach trips really.

I agree. I'd imagine that rather than the WTTs, the really interesting stuff with any one-off specials or excursions would be shown in the Special / Weekly Traffic Notices from the period.

I've spent a bit of time in the past trawling the likes of eBay to collect Working Timetables for my own areas of interest. Not too hard to find the full WTT books (if you're willing to pay ££), occasionally you see the Supplements to the WTT - but I don't ever remember seeing any Special Traffic Notices up for sale.

Maybe these were printed on flimsy, cheap paper like the Supplements and, together with their ephemeral nature, very few have survived into the 21st century. And any interesting ones which did survive are tightly held by collectors of this kind of thing, or in society archives.


Regarding the run-down of Blackpool South, this link shows an image of the diagram in the LMR-built box at Blackpool South just before abolition in 1982, when it worked double-track Track Circuit Block to St Anne's Station box and the terminus still had two operational platforms.

Often at signal boxes where infrastructure has been rationalised, the existing diagram was amended by simply pasting over all the removed track. In the case of this diagram at Blackpool South, there doesn't seem to be room either for the tracks towards the carriage sidings, which still extended to the Bloomfield Road bridge after 1964, or for Platforms 3 & 4 and the line from Marton, which was still in its last couple of years when the box was commissioned. The lever frame, on the other hand, has a good collection of white levers. Presumably the original (1965 vintage) box diagram was totally replaced sometime after 1970.

For the signalling situation on the Blackpool South "siding" after 1982, see this link to Ingy the Wingy's Flickr pages - Kirkham box's diagram before its closure in 2017.

[EDIT] And another link of the rare-as-hens'-teeth variety (from 70023venus2009's Flickr photostream) with a steam loco (identity disputed) in the Down Marton line platform at Blackpool South and dated 1966. So after the line was truncated at Blackpool South, but before final closure of the Marton Direct route. (Not to say that this loco had actually arrived along the Marton line - it may have been a shunting manoeuvre from the carriage sidings)

 

[Andy873]

I'd imagine that rather than the WTTs, the really interesting stuff with any one-off specials or excursions would be shown in the Special / Weekly Traffic Notices from the period.

I've spent a bit of time in the past trawling the likes of eBay to collect Working Timetables for my own areas of interest. Not too hard to find the full WTT books (if you're willing to pay!), occasionally you see the Supplements to the WTT - but I don't ever remember seeing any Special Traffic Notices up for sale.

Agreed, the WTT's are a good start but things like Traffic Notices would be even better. The real goldmine would be the Weekly operating notices (WON).

An example:

I wanted to find out when the remaining eastern part of my old branch was singled, a good friend & reliable source told me his friend (who worked in signalling) remembered it was published in a WON.

The line was singled over two weekends in June 1969.

Finding any of these notices is extremely hard work, many I think were just thrown in the bin - but if any can be found for Blackpool South / Central / Marton line covering the right period of time that would surely give many answers.

As most lines being singled or lifted connect at some point to the "live" rail network any such work would be listed.

Andy.