Blackpool lines- decline and fall

[L+Y]

I'd wondered if anybody has any good dates for the closure and downgrading of the lines around Blackpool.

Firstly- Central station. There's a secure date for the closure of the station in November 1964, but from photos I've seen, it looks as though at least some of the approach lines continued to be used for stock stabling until several years later- when were the lines between South and Central taken up?

Then the Marton line, which I believe wasn't closed until a couple of years after Blackpool Central. What traffic, if any, continued to use this line- presumably terminating at Blackpool South? And again, when were the tracks dismantled?

How much was Blackpool South used for excursion traffic after the closure of Central? I know the London workings still used South until 1970- did any other long distance services, even if only seasonal ones, use the station in this period: or even after?

I believe Beeching's original proposal was to close North and concentrate services on Central station- would this have involved services using the current Fylde line, or the Marton line, or both?

I'd be fascinated to hear any other anecdotes people have!

 

[Andy873]

I believe Beeching's original proposal was to close North and concentrate services on Central station

That's correct.

It was the council who lobbied very hard to retain the North station and close the central one because of all the land it occupied and with it being in a central position in the town.

Not sure about the other questions yet...

Andy.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That's correct.

It was the council who lobbied very hard to retain the North station and close the central one because of all the land it occupied and with it being in a central position in the town.

Not sure about the other questions yet...

Andy.

Co-incidentally, I went to a Manchester Locomotive Society talk about Blackpool last week.
The speakers suggested that the council haven't actually done much with the site of Central or the alignment from South in the following 60 years, but I don't know whether it's true. Councils ran in mysterious ways then, vide T. Dan Smith and Poulson, names from the past.
As an aside, in the 1960s about 60 extras were run to Blackpool daily in the peak holidcay season, each was around 10 coaches. And, nowadays, Blackpool North staff get overwhelmed by a couple of Sprinters an hour...

 

[Vespa]

Blackpool North feels like a minor branch line than a major station, it's location doesn't help.

Central would have been a much better choice even if services are reduced with increase in car ownership, part of the railway land could still be turned over to car parking generating revenue for the railway while continuing railway services, it's location is advantageous.

 

[WAO]

Co-incidentally, I went to a Manchester Locomotive Society talk about Blackpool last week.
The speakers suggested that the council haven't actually done much with the site of Central or the alignment from South in the following 60 years, but I don't know whether it's true. Councils ran in mysterious ways then, vide T. Dan Smith and Poulson, names from the past.
As an aside, in the 1960s about 60 extras were run to Blackpool daily in the peak holidcay season, each was around 10 coaches. And, nowadays, Blackpool North staff get overwhelmed by a couple of Sprinters an hour...

I think that the above post shows why Blackpool is now such an economic basket case. 600 EXTRA coaches arriving (by rail) would carry more than even the modern road system and deliver enough spenders to keep its economy going.

Those politicians (of all parties) who prioritised roads over railways in the NW (not just to Blackpool) bear very heavy guilt, equally those who put the wires up there deserve statues, IMHO.

Capacity, capacity, capacity,

WAO

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Wonder what the service pattern would have looked like nowadays if Beeching’s plans had been adopted. I guess effectively the Fleetwood line might have been saved but probably a single-track line with an hourly service like the current day South branch? Whereas the line to Central via Lytham would still be double-track and now electrified with 4tph? Or would there have been a different pattern, with more trains to Fleetwood? Poulton is a busy station in its own right, but presumably would be less so if the line to Thornton and Fleetwood still existed?

Not sure the Marton cut-off would still be in use?

Can’t help but think that Beeching’s plan might have been the better idea to preserve accessibility throughout the Fylde?

 

[Gloster]

Blackpool South to Central closed on 2 November 1964, but some of the Bloomfield carriage sidings near South appear to have remained in use until around 1970. Blackpool South to Kirkham is supposed to have closed on 7 September 1964 (end of summer period?), but the Direct Line platforms seem to have remained in use until 13 February 1967. It looks as though the Direct Line had still been used by summer trains after 7 September 1964; such traffic may have continued until 3 September 1966, with formal closure on 13 February 1967. The section at the Blackpool end remained in use for goods traffic to Marton Gas Works until around 1971.

Sources: Liverpool & Manchester Railway Atlas (Brown) and Rail Atlas, The Beeching Era (Waller), and a bit of deduction.

 

[Dr Hoo]

As an aside, in the 1960s about 60 extras were run to Blackpool daily in the peak holidcay season, each was around 10 coaches. And, nowadays, Blackpool North staff get overwhelmed by a couple of Sprinters an hour...

Can I ask what your source is for this?

Surely if 'extras' run 'daily' they might as well be (seasonal) regular services? Or are you really saying that there were about sixty different random permutations of excursions, charters, wakes week additionals and so on?

 

[Magdalia]

I have done a lot of research on traffic reports and special traffic notices (STNs) from the early 1960s. 60 extra trains a day to Blackpool is a plausible figure. For example, at the start of Sheffield Wakes Week there would be at least 5 Sheffield-Blackpool additionals. Easter, Whitsun and August Bank Holiday would have similar numbers of day excursions from the Sheffield area alone.

 

[Andy873]

60 extra trains a day to Blackpool is a plausible figure

Absolutely.

In one of my other questions about 2nd November 1964 (regarding my old branch line - closure of) reply #18 tells of up to 40 extra trains because of the illuminations.

2nd November 1964 - why this date

I'm puzzled by this date, let me explain... My old branch line I've posted about many times (sorry) - the Great Harwood loop line was due to closed as from 7th September 1964. This I found the reason for, it was when the new time table came out from the London Midland region. However, at the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also some info for you:

Blackpool Central railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Blackpool North railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Blackpool South railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The fantastic people here may know more, but the things I have learnt (researching my old branch line) are:

Working time tables (WTT's) are valuable when researching. It's taken me about three years to find three WTT's connected with my branch line, but it's worth the effort!

Don't look at Blackpool in isolation, look at what was happening around the area, even further afield. Many decisions somewhere else can have a knock on affect including industry.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Magdalia]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2022 ==

Surely if 'extras' run 'daily' they might as well be (seasonal) regular services? Or are you really saying that there were about sixty different random permutations of excursions, charters, wakes week additionals and so on?

I only had time for a brief response yesterday, as it was past my bedtime!

Yes, before Beeching there were huge numbers of excursions, charters and wakes week additionals. Trains to and from seaside resorts were the most common but there were other destinations too. Virtually every seaside resort had significant capacity for dealing with excursions, charters and wakes week additionals. Sometimes this stretched to separate excursion stations such as Londesborough Road at Scarborough. But Blackpool was the biggest destination in terms of traffic generated: it was very popular all over the industrial North and Midlands, and also extended its season with the Illuminations.

Some Wakes Week additionals were advertised in the public timetable (PTT), or appeared as not advertised trains in the working timetable (WTT). For example in the 1961 ER PTT there was a 7.4am Rotherham Masboro to Blackpool North that only ran on 29 July and 5 August, the former date being the start of Sheffield Wakes Week.

But the bulk of the traffic ran as additional trains in weekly special traffic notices (STN). Wakes Week additionals would run year after year, but only on the Saturdays at the start and end of Wakes Weeks, so did not make it into the PTT. Not everyone could afford a week away so there would also be a huge programme of day excursions during Wakes Weeks. Some of these were arranged by local railway management but many would be organised by miners' welfare or working men's clubs, which could involve three or four trains all going to the same destination on the same day, but the destination varied from year to year.

There would also be big excursion programmes on summer Sundays, the biggest being Easter, Whitsun and August Bank Holiday weekends.

At Blackpool the Illuminations drew in trains from further afield. Every weekend in September would have an excursion all the way from East Anglia to Blackpool for the Illuminations.

Beeching knocked nearly all of this on the head by withdrawing the rolling stock used to form the trains.

 

[Andy873]

Beeching knocked nearly all of this on the head by withdrawing the rolling stock used to form the trains.

Yes, he was moaning about 6,000 coaches only being used on a few occasions, 2,000 of them used for summer services.

He said the the 6,000 coaches were costing 3.4 million per year and only earning around 0.5 million.

What he really did do was to break the culture of holiday excursions / summer days out by train to places like Blackpool.

 

[Vespa]

I remember watching a program about why the railways declined and the Beeching's cuts, what's not been mentioned was the railway surly hostile non customer orientated culture with a timetable to match, which puts off passengers who then finds it easier to go by car and not go back.

I remember somebody saying to me that railway was "nationalised for the benefit of the railwaymen and unions not the public."

Blackpool no doubt felt the effect of that since it would work out cheaper to carry family of in a car than 4 different rail tickets, I don't know what the culture is like in Blackpool Central station regarding passengers on platforms, Blackpool North was bad enough to put me off and use my car instead or go via South.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think that it is important to distinguish between Summer Saturday 'holiday changeover' traffic, Bank Holiday-type 'excursion' traffic and autumn weekend 'illuminations excursion' traffic. There was also some Wakes Week (mid-week) day-excursion traffic.

None of these could be reasonably described as operating on a 'daily' pattern. Some days were undoubtedly extremely busy but as a proportion of an entire year they were relatively few. However, many costs racked up the whole time. Particularly as 'spare' stock sat around in the elements for over 90% of the time and the acres of sidings and many miles of signal wiring and rodding together with lots of platform canopies rusted away in a harsh marine environment.

The traffic had been in irreversible decline for decades. Back in the 1930s around 30 trains per hour could arrive at Blackpool and a day's tally of 'specials' could run to over 120. Coaches had already captured a lot of 'budget' traffic, car ownership had been rising continuously (apart from the war years, obviously), the Preston Bypass (M6) had opened and showed the way forward; many people were starting to eschew Blackpool in favour more appealing holidays and recreational options; rail staff pay was at last increasing in real terms after the Guillebaud review. Blackpool Council had already hacked back the tram network.

It is a moot point whether the '60 extra trains' were still full as the 1960s advanced.

Keeping the whole show going was going to take a lot of re-investment when there was minimal cash to fund it.

I enjoyed excursion trips to Blackpool by train my youth. But was it right to focus on things like completing the WCML electrification rather than propping up a busted flush? Undoubtedly.

 

[Magdalia]

In the early 1960s going to Blackpool by car was not an option for most people. Most of the people on those excursion trains would not have owned cars, and if they did, a day trip to Blackpool would not have been feasible because the roads were rubbish. No M62 in those days, for example.

Fares would have been cheap too, to fill the trains. I expect that Miners' Welfare and Working Men's Clubs would have ensured that fares were set so that their members could afford to go.

Road coaches were the main competition, and these took over as the railway withdrew and the road network improved.

 

[WesternLancer]

The speakers suggested that the council haven't actually done much with the site of Central or the alignment from South in the following 60 years, but I don't know whether it's true.

By co-incidence the other day I was reading about the council's plans for Central redevelopment that seems to be going on now - I assume this is the same site. I don't know if there were other schemes over past decades that never really saw the light of day:

Blackpool Central

www.blackpool.gov.uk

 

[Falcon1200]

He said the the 6,000 coaches were costing 3.4 million per year and only earning around 0.5 million.

What he really did do was to break the culture of holiday excursions / summer days out by train to places like Blackpool.

If Beeching's figures were correct (and I doubt we can check now !) what he did was save BR £2.9 million per year, a not inconsiderable sum in a loss-making industry. And of course that figure is just for coaching stock and does not include the rest of the infrastructure and staffing necessary to provide services for just a few days a year.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I think that the above post shows why Blackpool is now such an economic basket case. 600 EXTRA coaches arriving (by rail) would carry more than even the modern road system and deliver enough spenders to keep its economy going.

Those politicians (of all parties) who prioritised roads over railways in the NW (not just to Blackpool) bear very heavy guilt, equally those who put the wires up there deserve statues, IMHO.

Capacity, capacity, capacity,

WAO

I like the idea but having 600 carriages on standby for a few weekends a year would be very costly and even if you had them plus he locos to pull them who would actually use them ? It isn't like the 1950s I remember when there were plenty of unused carriages at weekends with mixed traffic locos also available, and cars were an unavailable luxury to most Blackpool visitors. The M55 /M6/M65 make car access quite easy so what incentive would ther be for a mass rail market ?

 

[tbwbear]

The original question about the Marton direct line is an interesting one.

Looking at the map section of the original Beeching plan it appears in red (saved) alongside the South Fylde and Fleetwood lines. Only the Poulton to Blackpool North section appears in black (for closure). Whether it would have survived long term even if only North had closed is debatable, especially given that much of its traffic - excursion only - was also a target for Beeching and also given that part of its route was eventually used for the M55.

In the 1962 regular summer timetable - there were only 7/8 trains scheduled from Blackpool South to Kirkham along the direct line. 5 or 6 heading for the East Lancashire line towards Colne, one rush hour Manchester Victoria service and one train (southbound only) to Crewe.

In the 1966 timetable - there were around 17 Manchester Victoria services routed via the South Fylde Line, along with 4 Euston services, and a couple for Leeds/Bradford via the East Lancs line. All these trains used the 2 remaining platforms left at Blackpool South. Most of the services were DMUs, but of course the Euston services were loco-hauled (sometimes even steam-hauled). The London trains were often short-formed and either had carriages added at Preston or were worked as portions of trains from other destinations (Windermere, Carlisle etc..) that were joined at Preston.

There is a "one inch" OS map online from 1969 (at the National Library of Scotland site) that shows the extent of the sidings retained north of Blackpool South after Central closed. Effectively the section between Waterloo Road bridge (South Station) and the next bridge (Bloomfield road) . On the map everything north of Bloomfield Road has gone by 1969. I think I have seen a more detailed 1969 map that shows a turntable retained betweeen Waterloo Road and Bloomfield Road. I was born in Blackpool in 1964 and grew up in St Annes. Just about my earliest memory is of a Black 5 steaming through St Annes in 1968.

From May 1970 there were only two through Manchester trains along the South Fylde line in the rush hours. One was normally a BRCW 6-car set and one a Trans-Pennine unit. For the rest of the day the line normally hosted 2 X 2-car (Derby or Cravens) on hourly Kirkham-Blackpool shuttles. One of these extended (in 1970 at least) to Preston and back in the early evening.


What I have never found an answer to is exactly when the decision to switch from South to North (carried out in 1970) was actually made. In a 1970 article in Modern Railways it suggests the decision was made in the late 60s, partly due to changing population patterns (more Manchester commuters were living in the north of the Fylde than the south) - etc...

But, when they closed Central in 1964 and kept North open - did they really believe they were going to keep most of the main services from South forever - or did they know all along that they would switch to North ?

 

[Springs Branch]

But, when they closed Central in 1964 and kept North open - did they really believe they were going to keep most of the main services from South forever - or did they know all along that they would switch to North ?

I suspect that at the time Central was closed, BR might have thought a good fraction of the main services would continue from South into the future.

My reason to say this is the positioning of the new Blackpool South signal box, which opened in March 1965 (some months after Central closed in Nov 1964) replacing former L&Y South No.1 and No.3 boxes.

As mentioned by @Gloster, after Central closed, a section of track and some of the carriage sidings (plus a turntable!) were retained between South station and Bloomfield Road and used to stable rolling stock until around 1970, including the evening arrivals from Euston. (According to a 2016 thread on the RMWeb forum, the Bloomfield turntable was used to turn steam locos heading to/from Lostock Hall shed right up until the end of steam in 1968)

The new box was built north of the Waterloo Road overbridge - meaning that once the remaining Bloomfield carriage sidings were redundant and removed, the signal box became famously isolated, with no railway running past it.

If the original plan had always been the post-1970 arrangements (i.e. couple of peak-hour Manchester DMUs, shuttle service to Kirkham rest of the time and stop blocks at the South station platforms), surely there would have been space to build the new signal box the other side of the road bridge.

The scene in 1973 (after all carriage sidings removed):-

Source: Stephen McKay on Geograph. Reproduced under CC BY-SA 2.0

 

[tbwbear]

I suspect that at the time Central was closed, BR might have thought a good fraction of the main services would continue from South into the future.

My reason to say this is the positioning of the new Blackpool South signal box, which opened in March 1965 (some months after Central closed in Nov 1964) replacing former L&Y South No.1 and No.3 boxes.

That makes sense. Although it would depend on how late the decision to close Central in favour of North was made - surely after the Beeching Plan?, so perhaps the planning of where to site that box was past the point of economic cancellation by then?

But it would seem that, as you say, they did plan to operate more out of South permanently. It would be interesting to know the exact reasoning and timing of the decision.

Also when exactly did they decide to reduce the platforms at/and modernise North (opened in 1973) by closing the main station and moving to the old excursion platforms - was that tied to the 1970 move from South maybe ?

According to Gordon Suggit's " Lost Railways of Lancashire" regular scheduled services on the Marton line continued until 1965 - is anyone with an LMR 1964/5 timetable able to confirm that? - and excursions continued until 1967. That means platform 3 and 4 at South only finally closed in 1967 doesn't it ?. I assume that no excursions went into South after 1967 as the two remaining platforms would have struggled to cope / there was more than enough capacity at North.

 

[Springs Branch]

Yes, he was moaning about 6,000 coaches only being used on a few occasions, 2,000 of them used for summer services.

He said the the 6,000 coaches were costing 3.4 million per year and only earning around 0.5 million.

As well as the rolling stock, another factor was the cost of infrastructure & signalling which was used for a limited period each year.
Looking at the 1960 Sectional Appendix for the Marton line, there were four intermediate signal boxes between Kirkham North Jn and Blackpool South (at Bradkirk, Plumpton, Marton and Watson Lane Bridge).

These were simply block posts, around 1½ - 2 miles apart in the open Fylde countryside, and would have only been necessary on summer Saturdays, and probably afternoons & evenings in the Illuminations season.

The rest of the time (and through winter) the block section could probably have been Kirkham N. to Blackpool S. and most or all the intermediate boxes switched out. But the the ironmongery, signal lamps and the like would need continuous maintenance.

I also wonder how the railways went with manning signal boxes such as these? Qualified signalman is not a casual occupation you'd do just in "the season", and staff did not usually travel long distances to work in those days. Did BR need to keep some or all of the Marton line boxes open year-round just to retain enough suitably experienced staff for the frantic days in summer?

 

[Gloster]

The problem with the siting of the box at South is that, due to the angle that the Direct Line came in at, most of the pointwork would have been north of the bridge. It was probably built in the only location that would make operation practical without motor points, etc. When it was opened it is quite likely that arriving trains continued past the box, changed ends or ran around in or alongside the carriage sidings and then ran back past the box to depart from the other platform face.

There was a gasworks at Marton, so a box would probably have been needed there, although it might only be open on one shift.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The problem with the siting of the box at South is that, due to the angle that the Direct Line came in at, most of the pointwork would have been north of the bridge. It was probably built in the only location that would make operation practical without motor points, etc. When it was opened it is quite likely that arriving trains continued past the box, changed ends or ran around in or alongside the carriage sidings and then ran back past the box to depart from the other platform face.

There was a gasworks at Marton, so a box would probably have been needed there, although it might only be open on one shift.

Purely a guess on my part but I suspect that the gasworks was actually quite a significant consideration for what was done at South. It was the only intermediate traffic objective on the New Line and had been an essential increase in Blackpool's gas production capability as the resident (and visiting) population grew. The original gasworks, just south of Central, was hemmed in and couldn't be expanded.

Severing the New Line at the Kirkham end gave a major simplification of the complex junctions and flyover there. But it did then require a 'permanent' run-round/reversing facility at Blackpool South. The new box was ideally placed to control that, regardless of whether passenger stabling and locomotive servicing activities subsequently reduced or moved to North entirely.

The LM seemed to like their modern pattern of small manual box rather than 'little panels' for heavily rationalised or re-modelled locations. Mickle Trafford, Uttoxeter and Ravenhead were other examples. No doubt one of our signalling experts could help us out.

Obviously nobody knew at the time that North Sea natural gas was just about to consign coal gas to the history books within a very few years.

 

[WAO]

I like the idea but having 600 carriages on standby for a few weekends a year would be very costly and even if you had them plus he locos to pull them who would actually use them ? It isn't like the 1950s I remember when there were plenty of unused carriages at weekends with mixed traffic locos also available, and cars were an unavailable luxury to most Blackpool visitors. The M55 /M6/M65 make car access quite easy so what incentive would ther be for a mass rail market ?

It's true that there was a cost to the railway in providing enough stock (although each rake could have several workings per day) but there has also been a large cost in the mauling (rather than modest decline) of local economies. There must be a fair balance somewhere. I hope that the NW EMU's will make a difference.

I've taken my family to Blackpool by car (never again) and queued for hours to see the lights. Roads do not have the required capacity. Railways do.

WAO

 

[edwin_m]

Mass holidays in Blackpool, of the type popular in the first half of the century, were probably doomed once improvements in living standards and aviation made a week in Benidorm affordable for the average family. The demise of the mills with their wakes weeks would also have made for a much more dispersed range of origins for people travelling to Blackpool on any particular day, destroying the railways' economies of scale and making the car and the coach more viable options for those that still wanted to visit.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, having lots of coaching stock idle for much of the year was uneconomic. But, it was not exactly new stock; it had probably long repaid its building costs, and was retained with just enough basic maintenance to keep it useable for things like summer extras, which was then considered preferable to the current situation with short formations and frequent overcrowding. Of course, the change in UK holiday patterns & destinations was inevitably going to reduce the need for a lot of that old coaching stock.

 

[RT4038]

Road coaches were the main competition, and these took over as the railway withdrew and the road network improved.

I think the railways withdrew because road vehicles , both cars and coaches, were already taking over, together with foreign holidays by air. Labour intensive industries were also disappearing, along with their Wakes Weeks and the concentration of trade required to make the railways viable. Beeching saw which way the traffic was going (voting with their feet away from the railways) and helped this along rather than making years of losses and getting to same place thirty years later.

 

[pdeaves]

Yes, having lots of coaching stock idle for much of the year was uneconomic. But, it was not exactly new stock; it had probably long repaid its building costs, and was retained with just enough basic maintenance to keep it useable for things like summer extras, which was then considered preferable to the current situation with short formations and frequent overcrowding. Of course, the change in UK holiday patterns & destinations was inevitably going to reduce the need for a lot of that old coaching stock.

Much of such stock would also have had peak use in the week and weekend 'excursion' traffic gave it something to do rather than sitting idle, so perhaps there was not as much retained just for this traffic than at first appears. Other factors come into play too of course, primarily staffing levels (as opposed to wages) making everything more expensive than it should have been.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think the railways withdrew because road vehicles , both cars and coaches, were already taking over, together with foreign holidays by air. Labour intensive industries were also disappearing, along with their Wakes Weeks and the concentration of trade required to make the railways viable. Beeching saw which way the traffic was going (voting with their feet away from the railways) and helped this along rather than making years of losses and getting to same place thirty years later.

Just been reading a very enjoyable book on Bolton and the very detailed studies by "Mass Observation" on the social and demographic life of the town in the 1930's.

Blackpool and maybe Southport were very favoured destinations for the workers - even for day trips - and the feeling even then , that the motor coach was seen to be better than rail (despite a wide range of rail services with complex and varied "extras" - cheapness being a key factor for the not too well paid workers of that era.

Consider for example - in South Wales - summer peak weekly services to the South West were run , with the carriages stored in sidings at Llanelly from one weekend to the other to form the high Summer peak services from Swansea to Bournemouth and Paignton. Very many other examples I am sure. Different times , different social patterns.