Blackpool Heritage Tram Operations Suspended

[Skymonster]

I’m delighted to read that the head of BTS is now taking a more pragmatic view of heritage tram operations. If only that sentiment had been present in the original update last Friday. Still, every little helps - even if its a bit late. I’m also pleased to see the local MP taking an interest and I hope he continues to hold BTS to account as we move into 2025 and towards the resumption of heritage services. Time will tell whether this about-face from BTS represents a genuine commitment or a short term attempt to dodge a bullet. I‘m still not overly optimistic, but for now things are seemingly taking a turn for the better. The important thing once the hubbub dies down is to not allow this to be forgotten until a resolution is on the table (whether its good or bad).

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Bear in mind some of the vehicles are 90+ years old and don’t even have a permanent battery on board let alone any electrical systems other than for power control / traction, air compressors for brakes, heating and lighting. Those fitted with trolleys rather than pantographs don’t have power if they de-wire. Maybe, just maybe, technically possible given time and money. But integrating a modern GPS system that has to fail safe with an ancient rheostatic power system and air brakes that fail off rather than on, could be quite a task.

It is possible. We upgraded our heritage W class fleet to a modern standard while keeping the appearance of the tram.

We stripped it the tram down to a bodyshell and rebuilt it to modern standards. Even before then they had modifications like fitting of pantographs.

 

[Towers]

It is possible. We upgraded our heritage W class fleet to a modern standard while keeping the appearance of the tram.

We stripped it the tram down to a bodyshell and rebuilt it to modern standards. Even before then they had modifications like fitting of pantographs.

And, of course, Rigby Road are absolute masters of tram rebuilds! A rich history of some truly exceptional work on historic tramcars.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I think you’re confusing Rigby Road with the various museums.

None of the trams have had anywhere near the level of rebuild as most enthusiasts think, and it is fair to say that the heritage operation to now has been eeking out residual life in cars.

Rigby Road doesn’t have anywhere near the level of paid staff/professional craftspeople as it had prior to 2011. What it could turn out even in 2005 isn’t what it could turn out today.

Source: I’ve been under several of the rebuilds and seen behind body panels.

 

[Towers]

I think you’re confusing Rigby Road with the various museums.

None of the trams have had anywhere near the level of rebuild as most enthusiasts think, and it is fair to say that the heritage operation to now has been eeking out residual life in cars.

Rigby Road doesn’t have anywhere near the level of paid staff/professional craftspeople as it had prior to 2011. What it could turn out even in 2005 isn’t what it could turn out today.

Source: I’ve been under several of the rebuilds and seen behind body panels.

I don’t doubt that there is less capability there now than there once was; certainly the likes of the Millennium Balloon rebuilds were impressive back in the day, as indeed were the lighter modernisation works on 701 etc. The ‘wide door’ conversions were a more recent achievement of course, and whilst not the prettiest of jobs they were nevertheless quite substantial given the age and relative fragility of the cars.

Much less requirement for it all now of course, but that being said a new underframe was being fabricated when I last visited the shed a couple of years back, so I have faith that any works required to add safety kit - which are unlikely to constitute heavy engineering - wouldn’t be beyond the exertise which still remains. We shall see, I suppose!

 

[Gostav]

I think old vehicle is not a a reason why they cannot equip ourselves with modern equipment, in Hiroshima, Japan, all trams were equipped with modern safety equipment and air conditioning, includes models built in 1942.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I think old vehicle is not a a reason why they cannot equip ourselves with modern equipment, in Hiroshima, Japan, all trams were equipped with modern safety equipment and air conditioning, includes models built in 1942.

As the historical Jubilee and “Millennium” (never an official name) cars demonstrate old trams can be updated and upgraded, but should that happen to otherwise heritage vehicles? It’s the perennial question of “Heritage or Legacy?”.

Fitting a speed limiter to a heritage car is relatively trivial - fitting obstacle detection is going to be somewhat more involved.

I think some very real questions will need to be asked of the Blackpool operation, before we even consider what new systems may need to be fitted to cars.

 

[pitdiver]

Does the "normal" day tripper/ holiday maker go to Blackpool to ride on heritage trams? I live in the East Midlands so a number of fellow villagers have visited Blackpool. None of them who I have spoken to visit Blackpool to ride on a Heritage Tram. They go to see the lights, the Tower, the Sea and some the Tower Ballroom. A ride on any tram is of secondary importance.

 

[Skymonster]

They go to see the lights, the Tower, the Sea and some the Tower Ballroom. A ride on any tram is of secondary importance.

Is a tram ride of secondary importance versus the tower ballroom, which per your assertion must also be of secondary importance? Do you have visitor numbers that demonstrate that the vintage trams carry fewer passengers than the ballroom gets? Or are you just conjecturing, based on your own preferences and interests? Personally I wouldn’t give a fig if the tower ballroom was to close, but I’m passionate about the operational trams - they are the reason (in reality the only reason) why I’ve visited and stayed in Blackpool a number times over the last few years. Each to their own. In reality both are important parts of Blackpool’s heritage that need to be preserved for this and future generations to experience.

 

[Towers]

Is a tram ride of secondary importance versus the tower ballroom, which per your assertion must also be of secondary importance? Do you have visitor numbers that demonstrate that the vintage trams carry fewer passengers than the ballroom gets? Or are you just conjecturing, based on your own preferences and interests? Personally I wouldn’t give a fig if the tower ballroom was to close, but I’m passionate about the operational trams - they are the reason (in reality the only reason) why I’ve visited and stayed in Blackpool a number times over the last few years. Each to their own. In reality both are important parts of Blackpool’s heritage that need to be preserved for this and future generations to experience.

I think this demonstrates perfectly the value of having a multitude of attractions - I have visited twice in the past few years specifically to visit Tramtown and ride the trams. I also visited the ballroom, which holds equally cherished memories for me. It isn’t a contest, but in both cases these are very much ‘heritage’ attractions, in both cases synonymous with Blackpool for generations. I’m sure the resort could continue to survive without either, trading on the market for cheap & nasty hen & stag do traffic, but it’s a question of what the resort wants to be, and thankfully that isn’t it!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does the "normal" day tripper/ holiday maker go to Blackpool to ride on heritage trams?

Specifically to ride on heritage trams, or to ride on heritage trams as part of the complete visit?

I'd say the heritage trams are definitely part of the package, especially during the Illuminations.

There is absolutely a culture of dishonesty and lack of transparency among wide swathes of British business and Government about this sort of thing.

I don't think it is dishonesty. The reason for most of these types of closure are to do with economics and health-and-safety. Operating practices which were previously acceptable cease to be acceptable and, at the same time, the cost of upgrading those operating practices far outweighs the tangible revenue.

If Blackpool Transport loses money then, ultimately, the taxpayers of the Fylde Coast foot the bill for it. Blackpool Transport made a small profit of about £140,000 this last financial year but it had lost £1.6m the year before.

And if the elected representatives are pressuring Blackpool Transport about their financial performance then the non-essential stuff gets culled first.

Sometimes making these decisions is the only way to bring things to the attention of the wider public. "You want us to make savings, here's a saving". Cue a public outcry and the pressure from the council suddenly evaporates...

 

[HJ10001]

Blackpool Council must so short of money, they've decided to remove a crucial part of why tourists visit the town in the first place!

They just want to have only the newer trams (built in Belgium) and the wanting rid of all the old vehicles!

 

[James H]

Does the "normal" day tripper/ holiday maker go to Blackpool to ride on heritage trams?

Probably not, but I’d wager they are more likely to take and share photos of a heritage tram than a Flexity

 

[eldomtom2]

As the historical Jubilee and “Millennium” (never an official name) cars demonstrate old trams can be updated and upgraded, but should that happen to otherwise heritage vehicles? It’s the perennial question of “Heritage or Legacy?”.

I'd say the sensible option here would be to upgrade the cars that have multiple examples extant, as then one car can be kept in "as-built" condition and nothing unique is being lost. I also think that being operational is a key part of vehicle "authenticity" and "heritage", and that a modified but operational vehicle is in a very real sense more authentic than an as-built but static vehicle.

 

[Towers]

I'd say the sensible option here would be to upgrade the cars that have multiple examples extant, as then one car can be kept in "as-built" condition and nothing unique is being lost. I also think that being operational is a key part of vehicle "authenticity" and "heritage", and that a modified but operational vehicle is in a very real sense more authentic than an as-built but static vehicle.

And of course, upgrading and modifying is very much part of the DNA of Blackpool’s trams. 700, restored to “heritage” condition but with automatic doors and LED indicators, very much demonstrates that, as odd as it may be!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Lisbon's 'Remodelado' tramcars, operating some very challenging routes, are very much an icon of the city and certainly look the business. They were, however, extensively rebuilt in the 1990s and re-equiped with new trucks, traction motors and controllers. I think it is preferable that Blackpool's Heritage Fleet is kept in operation, even if modifications are not true to the original, rather than being 'stuffed and mounted'.

 

[Skymonster]

I think it is preferable that Blackpool's Heritage Fleet is kept in operation, even if modifications are not true to the original, rather than being 'stuffed and mounted'.

There’s room in this country for both. Blackpool’s trams can be modified with modern safety systems that enable them to remain in service in their native environment - I suspect the majority of visitors don’t really care and would not notice that they weren’t 100% 90-year old authentic as they just want a ride in something historic. On the other hand places like Crich, Carlton Coalville and Beamish can focus on maintaining period authenticity, which is still permissible while running the vehicles in those controlled access and lower speed environments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s room in this country for both. Blackpool’s trams can be modified with modern safety systems that enable them to remain in service in their native environment - I suspect the majority of visitors don’t really care and would not notice that they weren’t 100% 90-year old authentic as they just want a ride in something historic. On the other hand places like Crich, Carlton Coalville and Beamish can focus on maintaining period authenticity, which is still permissible while running the vehicles in those controlled access and lower speed environments.

The extended doors (which allows a couple of the Balloons to be used at the raised platforms) are an example of that. It looks a bit odd and it's definitely unauthentic, but in allowing those trams to call at the normal platforms they're more likely to be accessible (not just in a wheelchair sense) to tourists who might not have done their research about the separate heritage service and stops. I'm an enthusiast and I haven't ever quite managed to work out how to join the heritage tours as they were.

 

[Lampshade]

Well I'm glad I finally got to see the Western Train all lit up a few months back, even if it looks like I'll never get to actually ride it

 

[jumble]

Blackpool Heritage have announced a suspension to their Heritage operation, citing safety complications as one of the main issues. There are questions over how Heritage trams can run alongside modern ones. It appears its currently a temporary suspension, but who knows what will happen.


https://blackpoolheritage.com/herit...9Ygg_aem_gPdPW2HuVD1Hqma2taDZnA&sfnsn=scwspwa

Interesting speculation here that indicates the real issue is that Rigby Road is unsafe and no one wants to pay to fix the roof and that the vintage trams are not welcome at Starr Gate

This has the distinct flavour of isle of Man Horse trams being announced as closed for ever in 2016 because Douglas Council did not want to carry on subsidizing

 

[philthetube]

I don’t know, is it that much nicer these days really? Or is it just the same but on a larger scale? You only have to look at the volume of empty, derelict former hotels on the promenade, particularly North Shore and beyond, and even the poor state of Stanley Park, with half the boating lake abandoned and the place overrun with feathery fowl and the associated sh*t they deposit everywhere. Even on a pleasant summer’s day earlier in the year, a light breeze brought grotty feathers blowing up from the lake and in through the open cafe windows; lovely. The park used to be a real jewel, a beautifully kept haven away from the manic seafront area, for a quiet minority who knew it was there. Currently it is, frankly, an absolute state. Whilst there has clearly been money going into the town it’s a desperately slow process, and I’m not at all convinced that it’s a fight which is being won currently. Blackpool’s fortune depends entirely on a tiny area along the prom, and it needs as much in the way of attractions there as possible. Another benefit of the heritage operation is that it offers a little class, in contrast to the shabby, downmarket offerings which are so widely available elsewhere.

Maybe these hotels are empty because of the unusable tram service which is always packed in the summer.

Totally agree about Stanley Park.

It may be quite difficult to implement some of the new safety features required, on old tramcars without advanced electronics. The 1930s cars, especially the single deck Brush cars, were capable of quite a turn of pace over the reserved track sections from Bispham to Anchorsholme Lane and Thornton Gate to Fisherman's Walk. Operating the historic cars at slow speeds (like heritage railways which are limited to 25 mph) would interfere with the regular scheduled service.

As the service trams barely top 30mph I don't see a problem there.

 

[Titfield]

Maybe these hotels are empty because of the unusable tram service which is always packed in the summer.

Totally agree about Stanley Park.

As the service trams barely top 30mph I don't see a problem there.

Without wishing to digress too far off topic:

a) hotels in traditional seaside resorts are in crisis due to the continuing drop in demand for seaside domestic tourism. Most resorts now have evolved to take this into account with Blackpool probably one of the last.

b) local authorities have virtually zero money to spend on anything other than statutory obligations including adult and child social care the costs of which are increasing exponentially in line with demand.

c) If we as communities wish to maintain the level of services (and I include maintenance of community infrastructure) we have "enjoyed in the past" then the money will have to be found from somewhere which inevitably means increases in taxation whether that is direct taxation or indirect taxation, Perhaps there has to be an increase in the user pays model going forward.

 

[Krokodil]

a) hotels in traditional seaside resorts are in crisis due to the continuing drop in demand for seaside domestic tourism.

Is this a universal phenomenon? Llandudno appears to be booming at the moment whereas Rhyl is struggling. That does feed into the theory that a shabby resort attracts fewer visitors, leading to further decline.

 

[Towers]

Is this a universal phenomenon? Llandudno appears to be booming at the moment whereas Rhyl is struggling. That does feed into the theory that a shabby resort attracts fewer visitors, leading to further decline.

Part of Blackpool’s issue is likely to be over supply I would think, particularly amongst small B&B type venues which can be of hugely variable quality. A very challenging way to make a living, or not make a living as the case may be.

 

[mrg9999]

I'm going to miss the tram on acid

 

[Blackpool boy]

Maybe these hotels are empty because of the unusable tram service which is always packed in the summer.

A lot of thosehotels are empty because the owners didnt keep them to a good standard nor very clean so people stopped using them not because of the trams

 

[Towers]

I'm going to miss the tram on acid
View attachment 171129

Hopefully it’ll be “trippin” again soon!

 

[Tetchytyke]

This has the distinct flavour of isle of Man Horse trams being announced as closed for ever in 2016 because Douglas Council did not want to carry on subsidizing

As I've said in the other related thread, although Blackpool Transport made a small profit this year last year it lost £1.6m. Those losses have to be paid for by someone. Local authority budgets are just getting more and more squeezed and I can certainly imagine that the local authorities on the Fylde Coast will be putting pressure on Blackpool Transport to reduce costs. Heritage trams are a non-core function and will always be at risk if budgets need to be culled.

It's the same everywhere. The heritage railway operations on the Isle of Man lose a couple of million a year and, given our income tax has just gone up by 2%, there are plenty here who are asking pointed questions about whether this is a worthwhile use of funds. Our government recently carried out a study into the heritage operation and one of the options being considered was closing the MER north of Laxey.

 

[Towers]

As I've said in the other related thread, although Blackpool Transport made a small profit this year last year it lost £1.6m. Those losses have to be paid for by someone. Local authority budgets are just getting more and more squeezed and I can certainly imagine that the local authorities on the Fylde Coast will be putting pressure on Blackpool Transport to reduce costs. Heritage trams are a non-core function and will always be at risk if budgets need to be culled.

It's the same everywhere. The heritage railway operations on the Isle of Man lose a couple of million a year and, given our income tax has just gone up by 2%, there are plenty here who are asking pointed questions about whether this is a worthwhile use of funds. Our government recently carried out a study into the heritage operation and one of the options being considered was closing the MER north of Laxey.

What a miserable world we’re building, all available funding directed at propping up society whilst we pay our taxes to fund it all and can’t have anything nice. Marvellous

I would hope that BT might explore the various means of actually maximising the available returns from the heritage operation before they just unthinkingly give it all the chop.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What a miserable world we’re building, all available funding directed at propping up society whilst we pay our taxes to fund it all and can’t have anything nice. Marvellous

I don't disagree with you!

Sadly there are plenty who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. You can see it from the local authority perspective too: heritage trams or social care. Sad that there has to be a choice, but there we go.