Blackpool electrification comes before Bolton.

[northwichcat]

An article reporting on preliminary work on North West electrification is here:
http://www.salford.gov.uk/pr-11-2987.htm

A point of note is:

Timescales
* The section from Manchester to Newton-le-Willows is due to be electrified in 2013
* The section from Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool line, plus Huyton to Wigan is due for completion in 2014
* Blackpool to Preston is due for completion in 2015
* Manchester to Euxton Junction (Chorley) is due for completion in 2016

I would have expected Blackpool-Preston to be after Manchester-Euxton Junction but it's the other way around.

Also, given the Thameslink program is now not expected to release EMUs until 2015, at the earliest and only Manchester-Scotland is getting new EMUs - could we see a stop-gap measure of old EMUs e.g. 314s coming to the North West?

 

[shinkansen1966]

I read somewhere that there are plans to introduce dedicated electric rolling stock for the Manchester - Scotland services.

 

[snail]

I would have expected Blackpool-Preston to be after Manchester-Euxton Junction but it's the other way around.

Blackpool-Preston is more straightforward - no tunnels for a start. If the aim is to run EMUs from Manchester to Blackpool it doesn't really matter. Manchester-Scotland services will run via Wigan, so electrifying the Bolton route is less of a priority.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess doing Blackpool first gives the chance of the direct service to London and maybe and Liverpool - Blackpool (if they still exist) service can be EMU. Maybe some Manchester - Blackpool services will be diverted but Bolton seems to be getting a very raw deal out of the whole scheme. I would expect the town wants to keep its links to Scotland (not that it will make much difference, railways are not ran to satisfy customers)

 

[snail]

I would expect the town wants to keep its links to Scotland (not that it will make much difference, railways are not ran to satisfy customers)

Assuming the new services are faster, it only takes 15 minutes from Bolton to Manchester so journey times won't be so much longer. I can't see a massive demand from Bolton TBH.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe some Manchester - Blackpool services will be diverted but Bolton seems to be getting a very raw deal out of the whole scheme.

Bolton justifies the frequency of service it gets to both Manchester and Preston so any diverted services will need to be replaced. I imagine after the Scottish service is diverted then either the through Windermere service will be reinstated or possibly Barrow-Man Airport will go hourly under TPE and a Windermere shuttle will go to Northern, either of these will release 2 or 3 185s for North TPE. However, all of the 185s off Manchester Airport-Blackpool are also needed for North TPE.

 

[cle]

Liverpool - Blackpool services do exist, 1tph. The Blackpool bit is important early as it will allow these and also Man Vic services to go electric. Maybe Man Air - Blackpools will run via Wigan temporarily, with maybe Man Air - Preston diesels to cover the Chorley route


How much quicker will the journey times be to Scotland via Wigan, rather than Bolton? The cynic in me thinks it will stay via Wigan to improve the case for cutting Wigan (along with Warrington) from London-Glasgow services.

Wigan will have B'ham and Manchester originating Scottish services - I wonder if they can timetable it to be 1tph to each of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Similarly if London - Blackpool services alternated with Lancaster, then Lancaster could be cut from London - Glasgows in those hours quite easily.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool - Blackpool services do exist, 1tph. The Blackpool bit is important early as it will allow these and also Man Vic services to go electric. Maybe Man Air - Blackpools will run via Wigan temporarily, with maybe Man Air - Preston diesels to cover the Chorley route

And where will all the EMUs come from considering Thameslink EMUs will only start to be released around 2015 and are supposed to be fully refurbished before coming to the North West? We'll already have 3 services an hour that'll be ready to change over to EMUs (Man Vic-Liverpool x 2 plus Man Airport-Liverpool) plus Northern already use pairs of 142s on journeys completely under wires because they don't have enough 323s.

The reason I said it was surprising to be Blackpool before Bolton doing either line currently can replace 1 diesel service with electric. However, doing Bolton allows an electrified diversion for Manchester-Scotland, Birmingham-Scotland and Euston-Scotland.

How much quicker will the journey times be to Scotland via Wigan, rather than Bolton? The cynic in me thinks it will stay via Wigan to improve the case for cutting Wigan (along with Warrington) from London-Glasgow services.

Manchester-Scotland service will be diverted permanently. This has been announced by Philip Hammond and is supposed to mean commuters will use other services, reserving the Manchester-Scotland service for longer distance passengers. It has not been confirmed if Manchester-Scotland will call at Wigan and if it does whether they may be set-down and pick-up restrictions on busy services.

There is no confirmed London-Blackpool service. It has been put forward but it is up to bidders for the next WCML franchise to decide whether or not to include it in their proposal.

Wigan will have B'ham and Manchester originating Scottish services - I wonder if they can timetable it to be 1tph to each of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Initially Manchester-Scotland is supposed to remain 2 hourly. Increasing to hourly around 2016, subject to demand, then portion working with Liverpool services around 2019, subject to demand.

 

[driver9000]

The order of electrification has been known since it was announced. Fylde lines was always ahead of Euxton-Manchester.

The Fylde lines have been surveyed for electrification in the last two weeks or so. Under Network Rails national signal box scheme it seems the Fylde boxes will be kept while the 14 national centres are established.

 

[northwichcat]

Thinking about it I think the best solution would be a new EMU order for Northern for the newly electrified lines and to replace all the existing EMUs at Northern except the 333s. Maybe a 377/6 order. Send the 321/2s to NXEA and the 323s to LM to bolster their respective fleets.

The 319s could still be used on Thames Valley. Then additional commuter services around Bristol and Cardiff could get electrified and make use of the 319s, meaning the non-Northern Pacers could effectively be written off by that cascade.

 

[bluenoxid]

Liverpool to Blackpool and the Blackpool to London service can go over to EMU operation.

 

[driver9000]

Liverpool to Blackpool and the Blackpool to London service can go over to EMU operation.

Is that assuming any proposed Blackpool to London service begins with diesels?

 

[tbtc]

Call this simplistic, but you could almost split the Lancashire Triangle project into two.

1. Manchester - Bolton - Euxton
2. All the other bits

The line through Bolton is surely the biggest stage, so it makes sense that one team concentrate on this whilst the other concentrate on doing all the other bits.

Something has to be last to be completed. The important thing is that it is being done, and that it should be a spur to further electrification (Bolton - Southport etc)

 

[WatcherZero]

Will be the hardest and most disruptive (not counting chat moss bog design considerations). But naturally their done in stages, first team surveys then moves on to next, second team does the bridge alterations then moves on, etc...

Would be next to impossible to do them all at the same time in parallel.

I may be wrong but I think the Bolton line works will actually start before the Blackpool line but it will take longer and finish after.

 

[ukrob]

The order of electrification has been known since it was announced. Fylde lines was always ahead of Euxton-Manchester.

Indeed - there are no surprises in this thread.

 

[cle]

Is that assuming any proposed Blackpool to London service begins with diesels?

I think they might do in Dec 2013.

According to the new RUS, this will be the time for a big timetable change which will attempt:
- 4th train to Manchester (Crewe, Stockport only) - I think this is a bit overkill, and maybe should be the Lancashire terminator. Or if not should stop at Watford.

- Some fiddling with LM trains around Stoke/Crewe (possibly to Liverpool)

and crucially:

- London - Glasgow hourly, and made faster by cutting Warrington and Wigan stops.

This requires new services from London to those two stops (Scotland is covered already), and these will need to terminate at Preston, Lancaster or Blackpool.

I doubt they'd go as far as Carlisle, but that could be useful for cutting Lakes stops from Glasgow trains, maybe for a couple of trains anyway.

If a Voyager or two is free, I think Blackpool would go into the mix. Hence entry in the franchise tender suggestions. They should rush Crewe - Chester wiring, which would free some up.

 

[northwichcat]

The crucial point about the West Coast RUS is that it's written for the consideration of bidders of the next WCML franchise opposed to being the exact requirements.

The bidder could put a case forward for 2tph on Liverpool-London, even though it isn't a recommendation and in theory if the case they put forward is good enough then their bid could be accepted.

With Crewe-Chester I think even if it is electrified that the likely option is using the 4 car Super Voyagers with a 5th Pantograph vehicle. The Welsh Assembly won't accept cut backs to North Wales services and dragging Pendolinos on Holyhead-London services doesn't need the Crewe-Chester electrification first.

 

[cle]

Many don't continue to North Wales and so would be fine with an EMU. The drag could begin at Chester too perhaps.

And the new pantograph car to the Voyagers plan, despite being a very sensible solution, has never been firmed up in anyway or confirmed as more than a future option. So we sbouldn't rely on it happening!

Sadly the government is silent on all matters of stock, be it pacer replacement, EMUs for Manc/Scotland or wider intercity capacity such as this.

 

[northwichcat]

Many don't continue to North Wales and so would be fine with an EMU. The drag could begin at Chester too perhaps.

5 per day do and they usually work as pairs of Voyagers on London-Chester, then they split and one Voyager forms to the next Chester-London service and the other continues to North Wales.

And the new pantograph car to the Voyagers plan, despite being a very sensible solution, has never been firmed up in anyway or confirmed as more than a future option. So we sbouldn't rely on it happening!

We shouldn't be expecting additional Pendolinos to be ordered for Chester-London either. Birmingham-Scotland should be more of a priority for new Pendolinos, especially as diversions via Bolton will be via an electrified route in the next few years.

 

[tbtc]

With Crewe-Chester I think even if it is electrified that the likely option is using the 4 car Super Voyagers with a 5th Pantograph vehicle

Virgin don't have any four coach Voyagers

The Welsh Assembly won't accept cut backs to North Wales services

They can pay for electrification to Holyhead then.

They've been wanting increased power over things like the railways for some time. Now, with electrification proposed to Chester and Cardiff, the WAG will have to work out whether they want the cost of electrification to Holyhead and Swansea to come from their pocket...

However, the London to Holyhead service is only around half of the service from London to Chester (and many of the through services see only one unit go west of Chester)

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin don't have any four coach Voyagers

They can reform their 4 coach examples and swap 5 car 221s with XC's 4 car 221s can't they?