Blackfriars is gone!

[GospelOak117]

I passed through Blackfriars on a train to Catford the other day for the first time in years. I knew the Underground station there has been closed for quite a while now, but was suprised to see the once sizeable station has more or less been completely demolished now and thameslink trains now pass through on temporary platforms.
What is actually going on here, I havent a clue!? And will South Eastern services ever use terminal platforms here again?

Sorry if this has been covered elseware

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In a nutshell, they're moving the through lines from one side to the other as part of the Thameslink upgrade. And the platforms will be extended across the entire river.

 

[jopsuk]

There will be South Eastern services terminating again; the platforms will be where the through platforms are now and there will be one less (total of four platforms). There's soon going to be a phase where trains will be passing through without stopping; in the middle of this there will be a blockade over Christmas to move the through lines- see here for details/dates

 

[GospelOak117]

Ah thanks for clearing that up ppl, will be interesting to see the final result of that! It seems most odd having FCC 319's down the Catford line atm!

 

[swt_passenger]

CGI video of the finished station here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/6243.aspx

Not exactly clear there is that the through platforms switch sides to the east side of the widened bridge (as mentioned above) and there will be two 12? car bays on the west side. Also a southern entrance to the station.

 

[Jordy]

That looks quite good, I didn't realise it was going to be totally enclosed!

 

[Class377/5]

That looks quite good, I didn't realise it was going to be totally enclosed!

Apart from the southern end will be a nice big hole so it will be able to be a nice wind tunnel tho the full glass side 'walls' will make the most of the rather good views the stations get.

CGI video of the finished station here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/6243.aspx

Not exactly clear there is that the through platforms switch sides to the east side of the widened bridge (as mentioned above) and there will be two 12? car bays on the west side. Also a southern entrance to the station.

Yes the two bays will be 12 car lengths.

There will be South Eastern services terminating again; the platforms will be where the through platforms are now and there will be one less (total of four platforms). There's soon going to be a phase where trains will be passing through without stopping; in the middle of this there will be a blockade over Christmas to move the through lines- see here for details/dates

Actually under the current plans there won't be Southeastern trains teriminating, but going through the Core to Luton. The Sutton Loop is currently expected to go into the bays but as part of Southern. But as thats not due until after Easter 2012 (when the bays opens) anything can change that!

As for the station closing for 8 weeks, thats begins one week today (19/11) After the final trains the station will close to passengers until January 2011 and apart from a 6 day Core clourse will continue through the station.

I'm sure interest will peak on New Years Eve when trains will run through the two new platforms for the first time giving passengers (and staff) their first view of the new side to the station.

Just don't expected to have a great view come 31st December as the 'walls' won't be getting their glass just yet.

 

[j0hn0]

I wouldn't like to get off a train that stops in the middle of the platforms though. I am unsure about the wisdom of a station right in the middle of a river, and the associated costs

 

[jopsuk]

Why? With twelve car trains, the front will be at one side of the river, and the rear at the other. Station entrances at both ends. Much more accessible from the south bank than before.

 

[bangor-toad]

I wouldn't like to get off a train that stops in the middle of the platforms though. I am unsure about the wisdom of a station right in the middle of a river, and the associated costs

Normally it would be more expensive to build an elevated station over water than "on the ground". However, where is the clear ground in that part of Lonfon to build on? Also, there were already supports in the river on the west side of the recent allignment.

"All" the new build needed to do was to build a base over some of these old supports to act as a wider area for through platforms and long (12 car) bays and to have the necessary entrances built.

I always thought that this design showed great imagination in reusing what was already in place. When it's completed I'll definately have to go and have a look.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Apart from the southern end will be a nice big hole so it will be able to be a nice wind tunnel.

It shouldn't do most of the time as the previailing wind will be blocked by SeaCon House. Might be a bit turbulent around the southern end, though - but I don't think it'll blow through too much.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes the two bays will be 12 car lengths.

I was 99.9% sure of that, but there used to be a chap who worked for FCC who posted regularly who insisted they wouldn't be, even when he was referred to plan drawings that proved otherwise.

So you can understand my caution...

 

[Class377/5]

I was 99.9% sure of that, but there used to be a chap who worked for FCC who posted regularly who insisted they wouldn't be, even when he was referred to plan drawings that proved otherwise.

So you can understand my caution...

Well going from seeing the final plan, the bays are the same length as the operational platform on the through lines. When I say operational, there is part of the through lines that 'glassed' off on the concourse area (ie non operational area). There was a point I'd heard the bays wouldn't be 12 cars. Mainly due this issuse of 'operational platforms' it looked like the bays were 8 cars, so maybe this explains the confusion?

It shouldn't do most of the time as the previailing wind will be blocked by SeaCon House. Might be a bit turbulent around the southern end, though - but I don't think it'll blow through too much.

Yes it won't be as bad as the bridge but its likely to still come in. City Thameslink tends to get wind coming through from the south (normally chilly winds as well!).

I wouldn't like to get off a train that stops in the middle of the platforms though. I am unsure about the wisdom of a station right in the middle of a river, and the associated costs

You don't want to use a train that stops in the middle of a platform? I hope you never have to go to City Thameslink or St Pancras Internation (Low Level) as thats what the trains do.

If you mean stops in the middle of the river, well there has always been part of the station over the river so this is no different (ie 4 cars futher south in the platform were more or less over the river anyway).

 

[j0hn0]

yep, last time I looked, the river was quite wide.

with the distance walked to your office on either bank from the middle of the platform, perhaps it would be easier to get off at the previous stops?

 

[jopsuk]

E&C is a fair way away. Though if you're a regular traveller, you would, I assume, generally board towards where your exit will be.

The river is approximately the same width as a twelve carriage train is long. Remember, if the new stock for Thameslink ever goes ahead, the trains will be fixed formation 8 and 12 carriage.

 

[Class377/5]

yep, last time I looked, the river was quite wide.

with the distance walked to your office on either bank from the middle of the platform, perhaps it would be easier to get off at the previous stops?

You seem to be thinking maxiumum distances here. The walk to the back of a train will be roughtly about the same from the common entrance (north bank entrance). If your walking to the front of the train (from the common entrance) then your walking an extra 4 cars not anothing more.

Fact is even with the old station half an 8 car was over the river.

Anyone using the South Bank entrance won't care about walking distances as now they will be able to get into the station without walking around the station site. And once it the station they'll be covered.

As to be honest most customers will happy walk that little bit extra as they want longer trains and the trade off of a few mins extra walking at most is well worth it. (Actually longer trains seems to be one thing passengers, FCC and the rail groups all agree whole heartedly).

 

[Failed Unit]

As someone that normally needs to go onto the South Bank, it will be quite good to not need to double back.

 

[b0b]

I wouldn't like to get off a train that stops in the middle of the platforms though. I am unsure about the wisdom of a station right in the middle of a river, and the associated costs

There already is a 12 car Blackfriars station that is completely on land. It's called City Thameslink

 

[12CSVT]

There already is a 12 car Blackfriars station that is completely on land. It's called City Thameslink

City Thameslink is a different station (albeit on the same line)

 

[b0b]

City Thameslink is a different station (albeit on the same line)

the point I was making that the south end of City Thameslink is really close to the north end of Blackfriars, you could probably get away with renaming City Thameslink to Blackfriars if you want a station thats on land

 

[Proud Salopian]

The three stations (Farringdon, City and Blackfriars) are far too close to one another - an accident of history perhaps, but in that distance there should really only be two stations. Will it not be the case that as the front of a full-length Thameslink train arrives at Blackfriars its rear carriages will still be departing City?

(And no, you couldn't rename City as Blackfriars as City station isn't in the Blackfriars area: it should be called Ludgate Hill or similar.)

As for a station crossing the river: that's not so unusual (Shrewsbury!) but the Thames at this point is still very much a tidal estuary and is more like an inlet of the sea. I suspect that with the new access on the South Bank they will go ahead with the renaming of Blackfriars to something along the lines of "Blackfriars Bridge" or "Blackfriars and South Bank" or so.

 

[asylumxl]

I suspect that with the new access on the South Bank they will go ahead with the renaming of Blackfriars to something along the lines of "Blackfriars Bridge" or "Blackfriars and South Bank" or so.

Or not

 

[Failed Unit]

City Thameslink is new however so when it was build it must have been decide Blackfriars was too far away for some. Unless it was just to reduce platform overcrowding.

 

[jopsuk]

Way back, there were essentially three stations in the area of City Thameslink. There was a terminus at Holborn Viaduct that had a connected low-level station (originally Snow Hill station). There was also, between there and Blackfriars, Ludgate Hill station! As in understand it, the souther entrance of City is approx at Ludgate Hill station, and the north end actually uses part of Holborn Viaduct's old buildings. There's a map here- and follow through that to the "Disused Stations" link for a lot more on the stations in that area. Moorgate used to be accesible from the south from this line.

 

[12CSVT]

British Rail were required by law to build City Thameslink to replace Holborn Viaduct (or go through a lengthy and possibly expensive closure notice), the station itself was actually paid for by local building developers hence the reason why it is under ground.
As for distances, before the Blackfriars development started there were about 12 coach lengths between the stations, now it's probably more like 14 - 15 coach lengths. The two stations are probably no closer together than for example Manchester Oxford Road and Deansgate / Ty Glas and Birchgrove (Coryton branch) / Glasgow Central Lew Level and Argyle Street.

 

[Invincibles]

I would not mind seeing 12 car commuter trains through Deansgate and Oxford Road (Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly could take them?). When the Pendolinos come through on divert they almost reach from one station to the other at 9 cars + 57

As for Blackfriars it is good that it will have an entrance on the south bank. I always liked the station because it had platforms on the bridge, now will be even better.

It is a shame the southern access to Moorgate disappeared, it could have been a useful turning point for trains and maybe there is demand from the southern stations for the Moorgate area.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is a shame the southern access to Moorgate disappeared, it could have been a useful turning point for trains and maybe there is demand from the southern stations for the Moorgate area.

Must have had a theoretical demand once, but it closed during the first world war because there was no demand, and it was closed formally in 1927. If it was still there they'd probably be closing it anyway because a flat junction would get in the way of the through service.

 

[jopsuk]

aye. Back then, there were tunnels up either side of Kings Cross connecting to the Great Northern, and the sub-surface lines operated much more as part of the main network.

 

[12CSVT]

I would not mind seeing 12 car commuter trains through Deansgate and Oxford Road (Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly could take them?). When the Pendolinos come through on divert they almost reach from one station to the other at 9 cars + 57

In the days of proper trains on the WCML I think a class 47 + DVT + 9 Mk3s + AC electric did just about stretch from one station to the other, no doubt an overnight sleeper (16 coaches) could be in both stations at the same time.

 

[asylumxl]

Passed through Blackfriars today for the first time since it closed. Work is rushing along, the new alignments platform structures are in place, as are the sleepers for the new alignment. The sidings had been removed before the closure. but now the only remaining one has had its buffers removed and is going to become the DL towards London Bridge and Elephant and Castle.