Bizarre ticketing prices today

[Be3G]

The angle I take on this subject is quite a literal, use-of-English based one. The NRCoC state, taking a small snippet from the above [edit: on previous page] quotation:

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;

The condition says ‘a train on which you are able to make’, not merely ‘a train on which you make’. A direct train between the origin and destination on the ticket is, indeed, a train on which you are able to make the entire journey without changing, even if one chooses not to make that entire journey. Being able to do something does not indicate compulsion to do it.

By my line of thinking, if someone wished to resume their journey, that would be fine too, but only if catching another train that runs direct from the ticket's origin to destination – because, again, it's a train on which the complete journey would have been possible without changing trains.

 

[maniacmartin]

I must admit these lines of argument are very convincing. I may re-evaluate my original opinion. However, it seems that everyone is in agreement that this ticket wouldn't be valid on the return journey where there are no through trains from Adwick

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But using a direct train does not make the route a permitted route see NRCoC 13 (c). Only those routes in (a) ii, iii & (b) are permited routes note those in (a) i

The route is permitted (because it is a direct train), even if it is not one of the 'permitted routes'. The break of journey condition (Condition 16) says:

"You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket."

It does not mention 'permitted routes', merely that the ticket is valid on the trains the passenger wants to use.

 

[LexyBoy]

But using a direct train does not make the route a permitted route see NRCoC 13 (c). Only those routes in (a) ii, iii & (b) are permited routes note those in (a) i

Granted, but Condition 16 makes no mention of permitted routes:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

edit: beaten to it by HHF - with whom I agree for a change!

 

[island]

There seems to be sufficient grounds to say that one may finish short or start late on a through train. Not sure about breaking and resuming though.

 

[IanD]

The conditions say "If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket." I'd argue that the seller in this situation is doing so implicitly - you ask for a ticket from a-b and he advises you to buy a ticket from a-c then imo it is implied that the ticket is valid from a-b also.

In this case, I'd just get a ticket to Conisborough and have done with it.

 

[sheff1]

The conditions say "If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket." I'd argue that the seller in this situation is doing so implicitly - you ask for a ticket from a-b and he advises you to buy a ticket from a-c then imo it is implied that the ticket is valid from a-b also.

In this case, I'd just get a ticket to Conisborough and have done with it.

Good thinking .... I had overlooked that fairly recent change to the NRCoC. If, when the ticket was issued, you asked 'is this ticket valid to travel back from Sheffield ?' and the reply was 'yes' then so much the better as you then have an explicit statement.

As most have probably guessed, I use the ticket you mention

 

[34D]

For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that it is valid to stop short when using the direct train rule. The way I see it is that any restrictions on break of journey are a function of the conditions applying to the relevant ticket type, and nothing to do with the Routeing Guide. Once you've used the Routeing Guide to determine that you're on a permitted route you can dispense with it; it doesn't have any function beyond determining permitted routes and certainly doesn't impinge on the ticket conditions, which are a completely separate part of the contract with the passenger.

In the case of an Anytime Day Return from Gainsborough to Adwick, the ticket conditions allow break of journey, which means stopping short at Sheffield is allowed, but only when for the cases where Sheffield lies on a permitted route from Gainsborough to Adwick. I.e. only on direct trains from Gainsborough to Adwick. As has already been said, for the return journey there are no trains from Sheffield to Gainsborough that have originated in Adwick, so there are no trains on which the return portion is valid to start short in Sheffield and a new single would need to be purchased.

So the guard should only be selling this ticket if passengers require a single to Sheffield and not a return.

Not that my own opinion counts for diddly-squat around here, but indigo2 has articulated my own personal opinion perfectly. As has rail industry expert hairyhandedfool for which I thank him also.

Someone who's opinion does matter around here is Mr Barry Doe, and I understand that he sees no issues with breaking ones journey from a direct train, and resuming (if one wishes to resume) on a direct train.

I also acknowledge that, apart from one train that goes as far south as Retford low level, trains from adwick only go to Doncaster and Sheffield.

However for the Conisbrough ticket, the last train from Conisbrough to Lincoln is 2P79.

 

[bb21]

Someone who's opinion does matter around here is Mr Barry Doe, and I understand that he sees no issues with breaking ones journey from a direct train, and resuming (if one wishes to resume) on a direct train.

Not necessarily. Barry Doe's opinion has as much weight as everyone else's on an issue like this one.

 

[sheff1]

Someone who's opinion does matter around here is Mr Barry Doe ...

I understand Mr Doe is a journalist / travel consultant. Why should that make his opinion matter, especially as I am not aware that he actually posts on here ?

Whether any given rail ticket is valid for any given rail journey should be a matter of fact rather than opnion. Of course, as we all know, establishing the facts can be almost impossible at times - if everything was simple, straightforward and documented unambiguously there would be much less traffic on this forum

 

[furlong]

It's easy to believe there might have been an intent not to allow break of journey in the circumstances discussed: Essentially passengers can always take advantage of the widely-perceived convenience of using a through train if one exists. (Perhaps go back to 'any reasonable' and consider the political/public relations/marketing situation if it wasn't going to be allowed post-BR.) Breaking the journey outside a permitted route removes that convenience which was perhaps the only reason travel was allowed on that particular route in the first place.

But I think the wording does allow it, and if I were a passenger making use of this, as well as section 16 (already discussed on this thread), I could refer to the 'Break of Journey' conditions for the different ticket types as shown on nationalrail.co.uk in support of this interpretation of the contract. E.g. for Anytime it just says:

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

What could be clearer?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The idea is that you can break your journey on a route that is permitted because it is either the shortest route, or it is route shown in the National Routeing Guide.

You can use a direct train between the origin and destination shown on the ticket, irrespective of the route it takes. But if that route isn't either the shortest route or a mapped route, the ticket isn't valid for a break of journey at an intermediate station.

This is indeed an idea, but where is it written into the contract?

Firstly, for a direct train, you don't need to take into account anything in the routeing guide. But if you do look at it, it reminds you:

You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

And secondly, again if you do look at the routeing guide, it helpfully points out that:

This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey.

which I'd also suggest are words carefully chosen to be consistent with permitting a break of journey: On a route where there are through trains it is not necessary to change trains to complete my journey - I am just choosing to do so in order to break my journey.

 

[talltim]

As an aside, I'm sure the trains from Adwick used to go go through to Lincoln (I.e. the reverse of the one mentioned) did I imagine this or have things changed? How do the units get back to their starting points?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....How do the units get back to their starting points?

They run a kind of loop, Lincoln-Adwick-Sheffield-Doncaster-Lincoln.