Bizarre ticketing prices today

[stevefreestone]

OK, working in Sheffield today and because of the weather being rubbish went by train.

Got on and the conductor (one of the best I've seen in ages on Northern) said did I know about a 'quirk' in the system and here it is:

If you ask for Gainsborough Lea Road to Sheffield, a day return is £14.70 (roughly).

If you ask for a day return Gainsborough Lea Road to Adwick (which is further)..... it's £10.70.

So therefore, just get off a stop or two before and save £4.

 

[RJ]

OK, working in Sheffield today and because of the weather being rubbish went by train.

Got on and the conductor (one of the best I've seen in ages on Northern) said did I know about a 'quirk' in the system and here it is:

If you ask for Gainsborough Lea Road to Sheffield, a day return is £14.70 (roughly).

If you ask for a day return Gainsborough Lea Road to Adwick (which is further)..... it's £10.70.

So therefore, just get off a stop or two before and save £4.

Gainsborough Lea Road and Adwick are both associated with Doncaster, which means the only permitted route is the shortest one, or one using a direct train. You're not even allowed to go via Retford with that ticket. It is not valid via Sheffield, which will be why it's cheaper.

 

[maniacmartin]

I was going to post about this very issue this week but hadn't got round to it. A friend of mine who used to commute from Gainsborough Lea Rd to Sheffield has had that conductor a few times. Apparently when asked for a ticket to Sheffield, he usually replies with a "you mean Adwick right." (wink wink)

The fare to Adwick is cheaper as it is assumed you'll take the much shorter route (and is priced by East Coast, not Northern like the Sheffield ticket is). The only reason that is valid going round the houses via Sheffield is due to the direct train rule.

It is debatable whether stopping short is allowed at a station that is only on a permitted route by nature of the the Direct Train rule. (and not due to shortest route or mapped routes). It is my opinion that this is not allowed.

This guard might think he's doing passengers a favour, but he is costing his Northern money, and if there were to be a revenue block at Sheffield, his "quirk" could cause major problems to the passengers he's sold Adwick tickets.

 

[RJ]

It is heavily implied by the diagram at the beginning of the National Routeing Guide instructions document that the direct train rule only applies to the journey as shown on the ticket. The implication is that a break of journey is not permitted on a route that's only allowed because there is a direct train service.

 

[stevefreestone]

To be fair, the ticket says 'any permitted' and doesn't say 'not via Retford' as many of my London tickets from Lincoln have said in the past.

With the prices the same at both Gainsborough and Retford I'm pretty sure you could get the same ticket from Retford too, so therefore it would automatically be allowed via Retford.

The via Sheffield route is also showing as valid on the National Rail site and I quote them at the bottom:

Outward: ROUTE OF TICKET ANY PERMITTED - Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is heavily implied by the diagram at the beginning of the National Routeing Guide instructions document that the direct train rule only applies to the journey as shown on the ticket. The implication is that a break of journey is not permitted on a route that's only allowed because there is a direct train service.

But surely if you were on a train to say London and got off at Stevenage, despite having a London ticket, they wouldn't penalise you for that, given that they've made money for that part of the journey you didn't take part with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Gainsborough Lea Road and Adwick are both associated with Doncaster, which means the only permitted route is the shortest one, or one using a direct train. You're not even allowed to go via Retford with that ticket. It is not valid via Sheffield, which will be why it's cheaper.

Seems interesting that you say Gainsborough is associated with Doncaster when there are only about 4 trains a day!

 

[island]

Put down the can-opener!

 

[stevefreestone]

Put down the can-opener!

Ha, took me a while to get that!

 

[RJ]

The idea is that you can break your journey on a route that is permitted because it is either the shortest route, or it is route shown in the National Routeing Guide.

You can use a direct train between the origin and destination shown on the ticket, irrespective of the route it takes. But if that route isn't either the shortest route or a mapped route, the ticket isn't valid for a break of journey at an intermediate station.

More information on the first page of this document.

 

[maniacmartin]

With the prices the same at both Gainsborough and Retford I'm pretty sure you could get the same ticket from Retford too, so therefore it would automatically be allowed via Retford

If by the same ticket, you mean "a Retford to Adwick ticket", then it wouldn't be the same ticket at all. The price of a ticket, or prices of tickets from nearby stations do not automatically determine validity.

 

[Cab2Cab]

Removed comment (C2C)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The idea is that you can break your journey on a route that is permitted because it is either the shortest route, or it is route shown in the National Routeing Guide.

You can use a direct train between the origin and destination shown on the ticket, irrespective of the route it takes. But if that route isn't either the shortest route or a mapped route, the ticket isn't valid for a break of journey at an intermediate station.

More information on the first page of this document.

Of course, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (the contract for the ticket you hold) says....

....

13. The route you are entitled to take

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without
changing trains;

(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or

(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.
If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is
valid with your ticket.

(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within
the zone or zones shown on the ticket.

(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the
“permitted routes”

(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:

(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or

(ii) the most direct route.

These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would
have entitled you to travel by that route.

....

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket
Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you
are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be
the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest
priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you
to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you
have used.

A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or Docklands Light
Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of the stations on
these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start
your journey other than to:

(i) join a train at another station, or

(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your
journey within one day, or

(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service
Company’s staff.

....

Particular mention should go to:

"(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;"

and....

"You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket"

Now, there is, I suppose, an argument that if you are using "a train" to travel then you could not break and resume, but that would not stop you starting or ending at an intermediate station.

 

[soil]

Seems interesting that you say Gainsborough is associated with Doncaster when there are only about 4 trains a day!

That doesn't matter.

All stations are either Routeing Points or associated with one or more.

The associated Routeing Points will be those Routeing Points with connections to the station, that don't have any other RPs in between.

For Lea Road these are Doncaster, Retford and Lincoln.

For Gainsborough Central, logically it should only be Retford and Barnetby, but I think because of the lack of services to Central, they also chuck in Doncaster and Lincoln.

There is another can of worms here, namely that tickets are sold not to Central/Lea Road, but to 'Gainsborough', so you can arguably use all four routeing points (fares check may apply).

 

[sheff1]

It is debatable whether stopping short is allowed at a station that is only on a permitted route by nature of the the Direct Train rule. (and not due to shortest route or mapped routes). It is my opinion that this is not allowed.

This guard might think he's doing passengers a favour, but he is costing his Northern money, and if there were to be a revenue block at Sheffield, his "quirk" could cause major problems to the passengers he's sold Adwick tickets.

I disagree with your opinion in the first para but agree with that in the second.

My view is that you are allowed to finish short by the NRCoC paras as quoted by HHF.

The problem with an Adwick ticket is that, on the return, there are no* through trains from Adwick to Gainsborough LR via Sheffield so you cannot start short using the 'direct train rule'. Of course a ticket with a different destination, but the same price, would be OK as trains do run direct to Gainsborough from there .

* normally - don't know if things are different at the moment due to the Hatfield blockage.

 

[IanXC]

To be fair, the ticket says 'any permitted' and doesn't say 'not via Retford' as many of my London tickets from Lincoln have said in the past.

That would be 'Any Permitted [Route]' rather than 'Any [Route is] Permitted'.

 

[yorkie]

To be fair, the ticket says 'any permitted' and doesn't say 'not via Retford' as many of my London tickets from Lincoln have said in the past.

Yes, but why is it a permitted route? Because of the direct trains rule, right? and what happens when you get off at Sheffield? Have you travelled from origin to destination on a direct train? No. Hmm..

By the way, a general point: we have consensus about the majority of issues, but this is a rare case of HHF making a case for a ticket having greater validity than what I believe I do accept HHF makes some good points and I respect the fact that an argument has been made in the passengers favour.

But my advice would be not to use such a ticket.

The via Sheffield route is also showing as valid on the National Rail site and I quote them at the bottom:

Outward: ROUTE OF TICKET ANY PERMITTED - Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.

It is permitted, for that journey. But you are talking about a different journey.

But surely if you were on a train to say London and got off at Stevenage, despite having a London ticket, they wouldn't penalise you for that, given that they've made money for that part of the journey you didn't take part with?

Not unless it was an Advance ticket.

Seems interesting that you say Gainsborough is associated with Doncaster when there are only about 4 trains a day!

There is no requirement for there to be any particular level of service for a RP to be associated with any station.

Hi RJ,

Can you explain this one,

Nottingham to st Neots £36 from memory, standard off peak return (any route) so Grantham or Leicester.

Nottingham to Peterborough £21.90 std off pk ret (any route)
Peterborough to st Neots £6.50 std off pk ret
=£28.40 (same train/journey plan) Saving £7.60

My friend bought both sets of tickets from original booking office.


Cheers

That is simple split ticketing as described in many threads. I know of examples where you get the ticket for less than HALF price. A £7.60 saving is nothing

 

[maniacmartin]

(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;"

My interpretation is that by stopping short you haven't made the entire journey without changing trains. The only way to finish the journey to Adwick would be to board a different train, ie changing trains.

 

[Starmill]

Oh, not ANOTHER one of these threads!

Interesting that this came from the guard though... I sometimes feel as though, when you meet a really nice, friendly, helpful member of staff - it makes up for all the others who couldn't give a s***. By extension, if all staff were as helpful & friendly, would it be such a pleasant experience meeting the people I currently know who are?

 

[LexyBoy]

My interpretation is that by stopping short you haven't made the entire journey without changing trains. The only way to finish the journey to Adwick would be to board a different train, ie changing trains.

The Condition only specifies a train on which you are able to make the whole journey, not a train on which you do make the whole journey...

And as usual the sloppy definition of "journey" comes into play.

I do agree that this could lead to trouble for passengers though, as unless the guard voluntarily fesses up the passenger would be in a "bloke on the train" scenario.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Everyone nice and clear as to what is valid? Good. Wouldnt want any examples of punters being branded fare evaders, not when the rules are as simple as this....

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[hairyhandedfool]

My interpretation is that by stopping short you haven't made the entire journey without changing trains. The only way to finish the journey to Adwick would be to board a different train, ie changing trains.

If a train calls at Gainsborough Lea Road and Adwick, is the op able to make their entire journey on that train?

Does getting off the train at an intermediate station mean that the train no longer calls at Gainsborough Lea Road or Adwick?

 

[sheff1]

But my advice would be not to use such a ticket.

I have used a ticket from the 'other' station a few times without problem and would not hesitate to use it again. I would not use an Adwick ticket though, for the reason already stated.

 

[jkdd77]

My non-expert opinion is that, if an A to C ticket which freely permits BoJ is used to travel to intermediate station B (where B is an intermediate station *only* by virtual of the "through train" rule) and to finish "short" without ever resuming, then the actual journey made is A to B.

This is notwithstanding that routeings (including the determination of through trains and permitted routes) are of course determined by the A to C ticket, on the assumption that the passenger is actually travelling from A to C.

In this case, the journey to the intermediate station "B" is made on a single train, and is made on a A to C through train; IMO, the literal wording of Condition 13(a)(i) is satisfied in the case of a single A to B journey, although it is even more questionable whether then passenger could subsequently "resume" at B and then travel on to C, since the passenger would then be really trying to "have their cake and eat it"!

The wording of the NRG is, IMO, not absolutely 100% clear in giving a contrary interpretation, and in any case, any conflict between the wording of the NRCoC and the wording of the instructions on how to use the NRG would be resolved in favour of the former, so, in short, my view is that:
a) it is almost certainly not intended to be valid, but;
b) it *probably* is technically valid, assuming the most favourable definition (from the passenger's perspective) of the word "journey" is used.

An analogy of sorts would be a passenger using a cheap 7DS to the next halt combined with a long string of SDRs on a non-stopping express train- this is currently valid, since one ticket is a season ticket and the others are not, albeit that it is clearly not intended to be so.

Of course, the matter is open for debate, and personally I would not be comfortable using a ticket in this manner, notwithstanding that I believe it to be valid.

Isn't UK rail ticketing simple?

 

[Starmill]

I know. Another discussion of fares, ticketing and routing in the Fares, Ticketing and Routeing forum

That was lost on you then...


I keep reading "Ardwick" instead of "Adwick" on here and going "Whaaaaaat!?"

 

[barrykas]

Contrary to the belief of certain people, staff can (and do!) get it wrong sometimes. Such as the clerk who sold a passenger a combination of two season tickets. By doing this, the passenger saves around £50 a month or £500 a year.

Unfortunately, said passenger boarded a train that didn't stop where they changed from one ticket to the other, and promptly had both tickets withdrawn by the Guard...Needless to say, the clerk who sold the combination wasn't very popular as a result!

 

[Searle]

Contrary to the belief of certain people, staff can (and do!) get it wrong sometimes. Such as the clerk who sold a passenger a combination of two season tickets. By doing this, the passenger saves around £50 a month or £500 a year.

Unfortunately, said passenger boarded a train that didn't stop where they changed from one ticket to the other, and promptly had both tickets withdrawn by the Guard...Needless to say, the clerk who sold the combination wasn't very popular as a result!

Surely the guard is wrong here as it is permitted by 19 c), unless they were completely off route?

 

[soil]

eh, 19c permits you to combine ONE season with one or more non-seasons.

You can't combine two seasons.

The intent is obviously to stop people season shopping and buying multiple seasons for a single regular journey, but still to allow them to make (theoretically) occasional journeys beyond their season using add-on daily tickets.

It's relatively rare that split seasons is worthwhile, although of course zonal seasons can be combined just fine.

 

[Searle]

eh, 19c permits you to combine ONE season with one or more non-seasons.

You can't combine two seasons.

The intent is obviously to stop people season shopping and buying multiple seasons for a single regular journey, but still to allow them to make (theoretically) occasional journeys beyond their season using add-on daily tickets.

It's relatively rare that split seasons is worthwhile, although of course zonal seasons can be combined just fine.

Ah ok then, that sense, thanks.

 

[Paul Kelly]

For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that it is valid to stop short when using the direct train rule. The way I see it is that any restrictions on break of journey are a function of the conditions applying to the relevant ticket type, and nothing to do with the Routeing Guide. Once you've used the Routeing Guide to determine that you're on a permitted route you can dispense with it; it doesn't have any function beyond determining permitted routes and certainly doesn't impinge on the ticket conditions, which are a completely separate part of the contract with the passenger.

In the case of an Anytime Day Return from Gainsborough to Adwick, the ticket conditions allow break of journey, which means stopping short at Sheffield is allowed, but only when for the cases where Sheffield lies on a permitted route from Gainsborough to Adwick. I.e. only on direct trains from Gainsborough to Adwick. As has already been said, for the return journey there are no trains from Sheffield to Gainsborough that have originated in Adwick, so there are no trains on which the return portion is valid to start short in Sheffield and a new single would need to be purchased.

So the guard should only be selling this ticket if passengers require a single to Sheffield and not a return.

 

[stevefreestone]

If a train calls at Gainsborough Lea Road and Adwick, is the op able to make their entire journey on that train?

Does getting off the train at an intermediate station mean that the train no longer calls at Gainsborough Lea Road or Adwick?

The train I was on was going to Adwick.

 

[OwlMan]

......In the case of an Anytime Day Return from Gainsborough to Adwick, the ticket conditions allow break of journey, which means stopping short at Sheffield is allowed, but only when for the cases where Sheffield lies on a permitted route from Gainsborough to Adwick. I.e. only on direct trains from Gainsborough to Adwick......

But using a direct train does not make the route a permitted route see NRCoC 13 (c). Only those routes in (a) ii, iii & (b) are permited routes note those in (a) i

NRCoC
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket.
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket