Bizarre RTT cancellation reason for an RHTT - "Adhesion Problems"!

[Deepgreen]

Jeez, all it did was one circuit instead of another!

If that is the case, it's the first proper answer to the (pretty mild) question. I hope everyone can see the irony of the attributed reason for cancellation of an RHTT!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==

Have you ever seen a car that's been parked under a tree for a long time, particularly at this time of year? 'Leaffall' season is NOT simply about leaves, there's a resin-like substance which falls from trees as well as leaves (and not only when leaves themselves fall), and coats whatever it lands on, which obviously includes rails. Adhesion problems are not caused solely by leaves, no matter what the papers convinced people of in the 1990s, leaves don't need to fall at all for trees to cause adhesion issues.

You may well be a victim of perception, but that perception may merely be your own.

I agree with what you say - adhesion obviously can be lost by drizzle, rain after a drought, other spillages (oil), etc., but if resin is also an issue, the RHTTs are going to need a greatly extended season, which I imagine would have been done by now if it was a serious issue. In any case, the presence of resin on a line doesn't explain the cancellation of an RHTT due to adhesion problems!

 

[Spartacus]

If that is the case, it's the first proper answer to the (pretty mild) question. I hope everyone can see the irony of the attributed reason for cancellation of an RHTT!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==


I agree with what you say - adhesion obviously can be lost by drizzle, rain after a drought, other spillages (oil), etc., but if resin is also an issue, the RHTTs are going to need a greatly extended season, which I imagine would have been done by now if it was a serious issue. In any case, the presence of resin on a line doesn't explain the cancellation of an RHTT due to adhesion problems!

It isn’t the cancellation reason, it’s RTT’s simplified interpretation of it. I’m sick of explaining it to people.

RTT ISN’T GOSPEL.

 

[NI 271]

but if resin is also an issue, the RHTTs are going to need a greatly extended season, which I imagine would have been done by now if it was a serious issue.

I'm interested as to why you state the RHTT season would need to be extended when clearly adhesion issues aren't significant enough to warrant it? That's quite an illogical leap, imo, it doesn't fall in quantities which would justify that outwith leaffall season. We frequently see snowfall in November (well, on parts of the network I drive over at least), we don't send ploughs out then. Sledgehammer/nut, just as operating the jetters would be at any other time of year. Nobody else has implied that it's a serious issue at other times of year, I don't understand why you've taken that from the post you're replying to.

It's important to run RHTTs before the railhead becomes too bad. Allow the railhead to become too contaminated and the damage is done before treatment starts (you'd probably be surprised at how easy it is to put flats on wheels from only very minor slides). It'd be very difficult to treat the railhead effectively after that, which would rightly lead to questions being asked of Network Rail, and presumably a lot of compensation to TOCs/FOCs. And that does mean long before the trees are bare, you need to get on top of it early. Councils don't wait for snow and ice to cover roads before gritting them, this is no different.

 

[Right Away]

It isn’t the cancellation reason, it’s RTT’s simplified interpretation of it. I’m sick of explaining it to people.

RTT ISN’T GOSPEL.

Having posted a detailed explanation further up thread as to why this is the case I am completely in agreement!

The train HASN'T been cancelled because of adhesion issues. It could be cancelled for any reason such as failure, lack of crew, covering another circuit at control's request as well as a whole load of other reasons. In order for subsequent delay minutes to be correctly attributed, the cancellation has been coded as 'OE' as explained in post #23.

 

[bb21]

It isn’t the cancellation reason, it’s RTT’s simplified interpretation of it. I’m sick of explaining it to people.

RTT ISN’T GOSPEL.

Just wait for the inevitable moment you get called a liar "because RTT says this". I remember having to respond with some quite robust wording, but also detailed explanation why information on open data sites are only advisory. Thankfully it doesn't happen often as I only get those that are escalated and I have a proforma to simply copy and paste these days.

The trouble is the website is very good in many of the things it does, all credit to the team of developers, and some people will naturally trust what it says. Nothing wrong with it, until one day the information is wrong...

 

[TheSel]

Nice example today. 2J57, the 1032 Bidston - Wrexham General.

"This service was cancelled between Hawarden and Wrexham General due to it being Autumn (TT)."

Presumably when the service was activated on TRUST (08:32 this morning) it was unforeseen that it would be autumn by the time the train arrived in Hawarden!

 

[PHILIPE]

Nice example today. 2J57, the 1032 Bidston - Wrexham General.

"This service was cancelled between Hawarden and Wrexham General due to it being Autumn (TT)."

Presumably when the service was activated on TRUST (08:32 this morning) it was unforeseen that it would be autumn by the time the train arrived in Hawarden!

Said "Slippery Rails" elsewhere. Saw a similar one a few days ago that said "Lineside Vegetation"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Code TT is "Autumn-attribution Neutral Zone delays (See Supplementary Autumn Attribution Guidance)" according to:

Delay Attribution Guide - Open Rail Data Wiki

Not as amusing though!

 

[Deepgreen]

It isn’t the cancellation reason, it’s RTT’s simplified interpretation of it. I’m sick of explaining it to people.

RTT ISN’T GOSPEL.

We know that, but my OP was quite a mild question with humour involved. If it makes you this angry, I would suggest ignoring these things so you won't suffer further sickness.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2020 ==

I'm interested as to why you state the RHTT season would need to be extended when clearly adhesion issues aren't significant enough to warrant it? That's quite an illogical leap, imo, it doesn't fall in quantities which would justify that outwith leaffall season. We frequently see snowfall in November (well, on parts of the network I drive over at least), we don't send ploughs out then. Sledgehammer/nut, just as operating the jetters would be at any other time of year. Nobody else has implied that it's a serious issue at other times of year, I don't understand why you've taken that from the post you're replying to.

It's important to run RHTTs before the railhead becomes too bad. Allow the railhead to become too contaminated and the damage is done before treatment starts (you'd probably be surprised at how easy it is to put flats on wheels from only very minor slides). It'd be very difficult to treat the railhead effectively after that, which would rightly lead to questions being asked of Network Rail, and presumably a lot of compensation to TOCs/FOCs. And that does mean long before the trees are bare, you need to get on top of it early. Councils don't wait for snow and ice to cover roads before gritting them, this is no different.

You stated that resin falling was enough to cause adhesion problems, and that it isn't just an autumn issue, so...

 

[Spartacus]

We know that, but my OP was quite a mild question with humour involved. If it makes you this angry, I would suggest ignoring these things so you won't suffer further sickness.

Re-reading your original post it seems I need a crystal ball for Christmas, or you need to learn how to express your sense of humour better. There’s plenty of people who think there’s either general incompetency or a conspiracy theory when it comes to delay codes.