Bizarre Experience on East Coast

[Starmill]

Most likely the guard did not have a functional ticket machine, it could have run out of stock, have a flat battery, or a fault.

I have no wish to offend any of the guards on here... and I've seen a number of your posts recently trying to dissuade people from risking faux pas against staff on here (I know, I've had a fair few myself!), but you are being too kind by assuming this.

 

[TB]

One point that hasn't been touched on.

While the booking office at Bingley may have been closed, the TVM is located near the entrance that leads from the front car park to the bridge, giving access to both platforms.

To my knowledge, that entrance is not closed off when the staff go home, so could the OP have not used the TVM?

 

[1e10]

One point that hasn't been touched on.

While the booking office at Bingley may have been closed, the TVM is located near the entrance that leads from the front car park to the bridge, giving access to both platforms.

To my knowledge, that entrance is not closed off when the staff go home, so could the OP have not used the TVM?

Probably. It seems the OP has come here with a 'unless a ticket is waved in my face, I'm not going to bother obtaining one because I deem it too much hassle, though I'll happily use the service provided without paying and go to the trouble of posting about the situation online after' kind of attitude.

 

[Deerfold]

Probably. It seems the OP has come here with a 'unless a ticket is waved in my face, I'm not going to bother obtaining one because I deem it too much hassle, though I'll happily use the service provided without paying and go to the trouble of posting about the situation online after' kind of attitude.

The bridge is not accessible when staff are not about. The gates which locked have recently been replaced with doors. When the bridge is closed access to the far platform is by an underpass.

 

[1e10]

The bridge is not accessible when staff are not about. The gates which locked have recently been replaced with doors. When the bridge is closed access to the far platform is by an underpass.

Apologies then.

My point still stands though. The OP could have purchased a ticket at Leeds if they'd have asked the gateline staff if they could pass to purchase a ticket or failing that could have purchased a ticket on arrivial at Kings Cross.

You would expect to go to Asda, fill a trolley and then walk out with a trolley load of goods because one of the tills were left open without staff and no one attempted to stop me walking out.

 

[Deerfold]

Apologies then.

My point still stands though. The OP could have purchased a ticket at Leeds if they'd have asked the gateline staff if they could pass to purchase a ticket or failing that could have purchased a ticket on arrivial at Kings Cross.

The OP would most likely have had 16 minutes connection time at Leeds - if their incoming service was on time. That's not a lot of time to do a connection *and* get a ticket.

They should have got one at Kings Cross, but I can understand why they wouldn't have known where to go to pay at that time.

You would expect to go to Asda, fill a trolley and then walk out with a trolley load of goods because one of the tills were left open without staff and no one attempted to stop me walking out.

Comparisons between services and supermarkets rarely work well. If you insist on making one, a closer case would involve there being no tills with staff and you having to go looking for them - but at Asda you can decide not to take the shopping with you. You can't untravel.

 

[1e10]

Actually you can self checkout in most Asda Stores just like a rail passengers can use a TVM at most stations.

 

[island]

Supermarket comparisons tend to be somewhere between unhelpful and deeply unhelpful.

 

[BestWestern]

Actually you can self checkout in most Asda Stores just like a rail passengers can use a TVM at most stations.

You will be swiftly aprehended by security if you did that, however!

 

[Scotty]

You will be swiftly aprehended by security if you did that, however!

Why? There are self-service checkouts in many Asda supermarkets.

 

[Starmill]

I can't work that out either. Principle of Charity though; I think he meant to quote the bit about wheeling your trolley out without checking out.

Once again, shop analogy = fail!

 

[IanD]

Suspect he's implying it's a euphemism for some sort of solo activity one would not normally practice in a public place.

 

[falcon]

Hi there,

Just thought I would flag this up as an issue for East Coast staff! Today (Mon) I took the train from Bingley to London Kings Cross.

As some of you may know there is no ticket machine at Bingley after 7pm and tickets have to be bought on the train or upon arrival at Leeds station. No conductor was aboard the Northern train between Bingley and Leeds and so I boarded the 2045 East Coast service to Kings Cross ticketless. Due to the ticket barriers I couldn't buy a ticket from the office at Leeds and thought the process would be easier aboard the East Coast service.

Throughout the entire 2hr30min journey I wasn't ticketed. There was a buffet Cart but no ticket inspector. Then, upon arrival at Kings Cross the ticket barriers were unstaffed and open!

East Coast lost themselves around £90.00 in revenue due to laziness? Is this the norm for late Leeds-London trains? They must loose a lot in revenue if so.

On East Coast revenue protection has collapsed since GNER left (no share holders since)

The Guards have had so many rule changes all of which contradict the terms and conditions of the ticket sale. IE Guards have been told to accept confirmation slips and letters if passengers have not picked tickets up as required,been told to accept print at home tickets that have not been printed off as required by T&C just scan the screen of their iphone or laptop,told to accept any single part of an advanced purchase ticket reservation or ticket on own will do.

When Guards are enforcing the railway by-laws and passengers complain because they have been charged for a new ticket or an excess fare the Guards are given no support from the company and in many cases refunds are issued to the passenger.As a result the large majority of Guards don't bother with standard class they just pick the big fares and upgrades in the first class(5% commission) then it's back to the Guards van.

Further to that ALL ticket barriers (gates) are just about useless because anyone encountered without a valid ticket can not be processed to a conclusion due to the fact that none of the staff on ANY of the ticket barriers have unpaid fares notices or Avantix machines so can not enforce anything. None of the staff have mobile phones to check names and addresses.

Just about all the barriers across the route are open at least 60% of the working day due to staff doing passenger assist work, cleaning or there are not enough staff. Most nights Peterborough has a maximum of two staff at peak time who just wave passengers through NO railcards are checked at all because nothing can be done when there are only two staff ( sometimes one).
Grantham barriers are almost always open as there is only one person at peak times. During the morning peak the queue is so long at the ticket office(under staffed ) that the barriers are opend in the full knowledge that passengers are boarding without tickets. Doncaster has no barrier,Wakefield has no barrier,York has no barrier,Newcastle had barriers but they are being taken out or have been.

All revenue protection staff where removed from trains in 2009! There are three staff running a ticket checking trail between Doncaster -York and Leeds but that's as far as they work and only around a 9am to 5pm roster.

At Kings Cross most evening peak times the barriers are wide open with no staff at all on them,passengers boarding just walk straight on to trains.None of the staff at Kings Cross have unpaid fares notices or phones or Avantix so how do they charge someone who comes off a train without a valid ticket at the peak time in a morning,they don't they just swipe them through I have stood for 30mins and watched staff doing it at 08.30 in a morning.

Most of the revenue protection staff are agency workers who want permanent jobs with East Coast so they do not want passengers complaining about them at all. Some of those who tried to enforce the railway by laws had there assignments terminated by East Coast, some by text message at the end of the day, others told 1hr before end of shift to report back to the agency,hens no enforcement of the ticket rules by those who want to remain.

East Coast as no ONE over all revenue protection manager. Each station is managed by that manager at that station who is also responsible for all other issues on the station including the training and assessing of safety critical staff,Ticket office,customer service,lost property and more. In short not one East Coast station manager is interested in ticket barriers or/and all the problems that go with them.

East Coast has the added problem of two open accesses companies using the route Grand Central and Hull Trains both who advertise tickets can be picked up and bought on train and as a result passengers traveling on them have to be allowed through the barriers.Those stations effected are Kings Cross,Stevenage,Doncaster,York,Hull,Bradford and Northallerton.

Platform tickets can not be purchased (not confined to East Coast) a MAJOR source of problems.People have to be let on to platforms to assist relatives friends ect.This is done by request if ticket barriers are in operation which means the member of staff is placed in a position of deciding who can and can not go on to the station.Either a person is legally allowed onto a station or they are not it is not for the judgment of the member of staff. Massive argument are caused by using this method.As a result almost no one is refused.Particularly by agency staff.

Is there any wonder the Guard does not check tickets and many don't buy tickets

Well done to the OP for highlighting the situation on East Coast.

 

[Flamingo]

And I thought we had it bad! It must be very demoralising for the staff.

 

[maniacmartin]

Very interesting falcon, and a kick in the teeth to passengers who do buy tickets. Of course the taxpayer will foot the bill for this.

 

[falcon]

And I thought we had it bad! It must be very demoralising for the staff.

It is.Every and I mean every member of staff involved with barriers or any form of revenue protection is utterly dismayed at how the company is allowing such a situation.Until the company has share holders it will stay the same or become even more lax.
I think the problem is that the person at the top is appointed by the Government in the long run and she is aware that passengers can write to their MP's about bad service. As a result she has no defense unlike a private company that has a fixed franchise and the statutory duty to it's share holders.:roll:

 

[90019]

I've been on Lothian Buses I've a number of times when the driver has been unable to give tickets - most often just because it has ran out of roll. When this has happened, passengers buying singles put their money in the hopper as normal, those buying day-tickets are told to pay on their next bus.

It's rare to run out of ticket roll (almost all buses have at least one spare roll - even then, most people will just get a roll from another bus), it's usually because the printer has stopped working, which requires rebooting the Wayfarer to get it working again, which takes a few minutes.

Possibly the fact that the driver can't touch the money on Lothian means its safe to take payment without issuing a ticket - whereas on other buses where the driver holds the money they'd risk being accused of fiddling?

I believe that's the nub of it.
We do have tickets, but only for daytickets when the machine breaks (which isn't exactly a rare occurence - lovely new buses, same old crap Wayfarers).

That was my understanding, in England anyway.

Believe we have a member who droives for lothian, so perhaps he can clarify either way?

I've only just read this thread, so didn't see all this before.

While we do have the tickets, they're often much more hassle than it's worth, particularly in terms of time. Due to the relatively tight timings we have, and how frequent the buses are, on a lot of routes if you had to write one out for everyone getting on you'd just get gradually later and later, and the bus behind would catch up fairly quickly. Because loading a bus here is fairly quick, it would have quite a big effect.
We also don't have enough to issue one for every ticket, as that would mean carrying a ridiculous amount of them everywhere (they're all numbered and they know which drivers have which ones).

If my printer isn't working, I'll usually tell people to get their daytickets on the next bus they travel on (unless I've got a quiet bus and can print one after rebooting the Wayfarer).
There are also some drivers who will print out a few daytickets if they know they have a dodgy machine, so they can give them to people when the printer fails, then put any unused ones in the hopper at the end, though we're not supposed to do that.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

...

The Guards have had so many rule changes all of which contradict the terms and conditions of the ticket sale. IE Guards have been told to accept confirmation slips and letters if passengers have not picked tickets up as required,been told to accept print at home tickets that have not been printed off as required by T&C just scan the screen of their iphone or laptop,told to accept any single part of an advanced purchase ticket reservation or ticket on own will do.

When Guards are enforcing the railway by-laws and passengers complain because they have been charged for a new ticket or an excess fare the Guards are given no support from the company and in many cases refunds are issued to the passenger.As a result the large majority of Guards don't bother with standard class they just pick the big fares and upgrades in the first class(5% commission) then it's back to the Guards van.

...

Just about all the barriers across the route are open at least 60% of the working day due to staff doing passenger assist work, cleaning or there are not enough staff.

Sounds very familiar....! And I don't work for EC.

 

[falcon]

East Coast appears to be the worst for revenue protection but having spoken to other revenue protection staff from other TOC they are saying that it is a similar situation with the company they work for. Some of the re-writing of the rules make no sens yet they are actually coming from ATOC of all places.

I remember when Tony Mcewer was in charge of ticketing policy at ATOC 6-7yrs or so ago and there where no problems at all. Everything made sense morally.Then someone else took over and started changing things like the excessing of tickets, in particular advanced purchase. It turned into a shambles with no moral reason for carrying out the excessing of tickets in the manner instructed.

That caused the public to be even angrier than usual when they could see no proper moral reason for not allowing excess fares on advanced purchase tickets.Some of which were only£10 cheaper than the first class open fare.Talk about designing a system to cause problems ATOC did it OK! hock:

 

[Roverman]

If the OP is that worried about the money (worried enough to start a 6 page thread on it) can I suggest he writes a cheque for the cost of the ticket and donate it to a charity, say Cancer Research, and send it to them.

 

[Darandio]

If the OP is that worried about the money (worried enough to start a 6 page thread on it) can I suggest he writes a cheque for the cost of the ticket and donate it to a charity, say Cancer Research, and send it to them.

How could they be worried about starting a 6 page thread?

For all they knew at the time, there may have been no replies!

 

[Flamingo]

East Coast appears to be the worst for revenue protection but having spoken to other revenue protection staff from other TOC they are saying that it is a similar situation with the company they work for. Some of the re-writing of the rules make no sens yet they are actually coming from ATOC of all places.

I remember when Tony Mcewer was in charge of ticketing policy at ATOC 6-7yrs or so ago and there where no problems at all. Everything made sense morally.Then someone else took over and started changing things like the excessing of tickets, in particular advanced purchase. It turned into a shambles with no moral reason for carrying out the excessing of tickets in the manner instructed.

That caused the public to be even angrier than usual when they could see no proper moral reason for not allowing excess fares on advanced purchase tickets.Some of which were only£10 cheaper than the first class open fare.Talk about designing a system to cause problems ATOC did it OK! hock:

I think whoever wrote the rules for Advance tickets used to work for Ryanair! This works (to a point) if you have a Chief Ex who has a neck like a jockey's bollix and your whole approach to customer relations is "That's how it is, deal with it", but unlike Ryanair, TOC's are answerable to the DfT and therefore ultimately parliament and elected MP's, because of the taxpayer subsidies.

So as far as management are concerned, complaints have to be avoided at all costs.

Therefore, front-line staff are left in the ridiculous situation where enforcing the rules they are told to enforce can lead to diciplinary action and a reputation as a troublemaker against the staff member doing their job according to their written instructions.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So as far as management are concerned, complaints have to be avoided at all costs.

Therefore, front-line staff are left in the ridiculous situation where enforcing the rules they are told to enforce can lead to diciplinary action and a reputation as a troublemaker against the staff member doing their job according to their written instructions.

Couldn't agree more.

We have a notice case full of strict instructions as to the various conditions, and then we regularly get emails about various tickets and restrictions and being reminded about the various restrictions that we need to enforce. And then when you do enforce those restrictions and somebody complains then you get told off for not being flexible and showing discretion and they want to know why you didn't just charge an excess. Well if they want you to do that - why not just issue instructions which say so.