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Bitcoin

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bb21

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Thanks, maniacmartin. That makes more sense.

Bitcoins are not an "investment", they are a modern version of a Pyramid scheme. The people who got in early may have made some money, but sooner or later it will collapse and they will be worthless.

It does sound so to me. There doesn't actually seen to be any money in the system, so I do wonder how the coins have real monetary values attached to them.
 
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telstarbox

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It has been argued that this is no different from the banking system used in the UK and elsewhere, which is no longer backed by the "gold standard".
 

bb21

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In an odd way there probably are similarities, plenty of differences with the banking industry I must say, regulation for example. There is something I can't quite put my finger on about this virtual money, especially this concept that net value can be generated out of nothing by simply solving a problem.

This might sound really thick but what happens if one day the company that runs it decides that it has had enough and game over?
 

telstarbox

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There isn't a company as such - it is very decentralised. As I understand it, the security comes from the network of users. Each time a transaction is made it verifies transactions which have happened before it (the chain) and so the more transactions are made, the more secure the system becomes.
 

maniacmartin

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Correct. There is no single company behind it. Just like there isn't a company that "runs" the Internet.
 

bb21

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But for arguments' sake, say one day the system completely crashes and all data became corrupt. Does that mean people lose everything, since there does not appear to be any real value in the system anyway?

Plus if it is now uneconomical to "mine" the coins, what is the point of anyone new joining? Can you withdraw the virtual money in real cash?
 

Broken Viking

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The value of Bitcoins is very, very changeable. If you're going to trade in them the you need to have a very quick mouse finger.
Insufficient. Lag times can be u to an hour, so you may miss the boat when rushing to sell.
I'm quite tempted to have a dabble, but I won't be putting any more than a fiver on it. As yesterdays crash proves, the "currency" is not stable and has to be viewed like a Roulette bet. :!:

As for in-time trading, I'm planning on using buy/sell orders on Mt. Gox for this purpose. That'll allow me to trade "hands free" and hopefully make a win, assuming that my plan (And assumption of a later critical crash taking BTC down to under $0.01 each) isn't flawed. :))
Bitcoins are not an "investment", they are a modern version of a Pyramid scheme. The people who got in early may have made some money, but sooner or later it will collapse and they will be worthless.
...Which is what I'm counting on for my plan above. In Casino/Craps terms, I'll be a "wrong" better on this one. :)
(Although as I say above, I'm rightly viewing this as a gamble...And thus only playing with money that I can safely afford to lose.)
Although I'm sure I read somewhere about a theoretical limit of 21 million Bitcoins?
Because of the algorithm used, there is a physical limit of 21,000,000 BitCoins. This is quantifiable via the BitCoin protocol specification. :)
Bitcoins are not an "investment", they are a modern version of a Pyramid scheme. The people who got in early may have made some money, but sooner or later it will collapse and they will be worthless.
It does sound so to me. There doesn't actually seen to be any money in the system, so I do wonder how the coins have real monetary values attached to them.
The simplest way to look on BitCoins are not as a classic currency, but as a commodity. Like any other commodity (Say; Precious metals, oil, land rights etc) they can be traded across exchanges for other commodities or currency.

If the value of BitCoin was stable and level enough, I'd be using it as a means of foreign exchange to save on forex commission fees. :)
This might sound really thick but what happens if one day the company that runs it decides that it has had enough and game over?
There isn't a company as such - it is very decentralised. As I understand it, the security comes from the network of users. Each time a transaction is made it verifies transactions which have happened before it (the chain) and so the more transactions are made, the more secure the system becomes.
Aye...The block-chain (Which is the backbone of BitCoin) is public and fully verified by its users, which is why BTC rewards are offered for mining. Without miners solving and signing the block-chain, BitCoin would become stagnant.

Of course, the hard limit of 21 million BTC imposed by the system does mean that as soon as the last BitCoins have been mined, the value of it will plummet exponentially as miners leave the system, blocks no longer get signed as quickly as today, and there's a rush on exchanges by people wanting to cash out immediately before/as this happens. :!:

If ye have any BitCoins about, I would strongly suggest selling them all as soon as the number of unissued "mineable" BitCoins drops to below 500,000.
But for arguments' sake, say one day the system completely crashes and all data became corrupt. Does that mean people lose everything, since there does not appear to be any real value in the system anyway?
If that were to happen (Unlikely, as every block is signed and identical records are held on all participating systems; The Block Chain uses BitTorrent distribution as a basis, hence the name) the commodity would become worthless and void, as it would be impossible to verify who owned which specific BitCoin. It's pretty hard to sell anything that ye can't prove 100% clear title to.

As an example, let's say that I sold ye 10,- BTC a few days ago (For, let's say, GBP 1,500 in all, at the estimated rate for the time) and such a corruption happened tomorrow. The BitCoins in thy wallet - Unverifiable due to the corruption - Couldn't be passed on easily (If at all) and ye'd either lose some/all of thy coins, or at best be stuck with a wallet balance of 10,- BTC that would be going nowhere.
In the meantime the money that ye'd paid me for thy BitCoins would have arrived in my account, and would be firmly in my possession and legally in my clear title - Ye'd purchased BTC 10,- at that price (I.E: I'd agreed to send ye ten BitCoins as commodity in exchange for thy £1,500 - Which I did) and I had delivered my end of the deal by sending ye those ten BitCoins.
In a legal sense I would have transacted legally and fairly with ye for that commodity and had delivered the same, and therefore ye would have little/no right in Law to request the transaction be rescinded.

It is for this reason that I state BitCoin must never be used as a system of saving, investment or otherwise. It's only fit for small trades/foreign exchange, making payments across borders, and low value gambling. :!:
Plus if it is now uneconomical to "mine" the coins, what is the point of anyone new joining? Can you withdraw the virtual money in real cash?
No, ye can't...To turn BitCoin into money (Or money into BitCoin) ye have to trade on an exchange. As mentioned above BitCoin is a commodity and not a true currency, and therefore a BitCoin itself has no fiscal value at all.
The same can be said for Gold, Silver, Palladium and Unobtanium - None of which have any direct monetary value of their own, but have qualities (Rarity, normally) which make them sufficiently desirable to people that they'll pay quantities of real money for them.

To summarise: BitCoin can be looked at like any other commodity like precious metals. It's main lack of certainty (And attractiveness) comes from its very infant nature (Whereas Gold etc. has been traded for over 79,000 years) and the fact that it's far more accessible to the general populace.
>> Death <<
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Addendum: Just got this when I tried to place a sneaky buy order on Mt. Gox...
Mt. Gox BitCoin forex said:
Market cooldown, order placing suspended until 2013-04-12 02:00:00 UTC
Has anyone ever seen an exchange do something like that before? :?::)
 

soil

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It does sound so to me. There doesn't actually seen to be any money in the system, so I do wonder how the coins have real monetary values attached to them.

Bitcoins have proven utility, for buying drugs.

Here's a 2011 article on the subject:

http://gawker.com/5805928/

Basically, say:

1 gram of cocaine is worth £100, delivered to your door

In order to buy that gram of cocaine, it will cost n bitcoins.

Now the volume of illegal drugs sold using Bitcoins is estimated at around £20 million per year.

There are around 10 million bitcoins in existence, and the velocity of many of these coins is zero, because they are being hoarded.

So only a fraction of the bitcoins in existence is actually being used.

Further, if someone wants to buy drugs using bitcoins, because they will need to launder their money a little first, they will probably find it inconvenient to buy bitcoins using cash for each purchase, but instead will make larger purchases.

E.g., instead of buying £100 worth of bitcoins for 1g of coke, you might buy £500 of bitcoins, leaving you with some for next time.

So you have a number of bitcoins sitting in a wallet, which have some utility to you, but they aren't going anywhere very quickly, because you are perhaps not buying that regularly.

The drug dealer too, who receives the coins, might be selling £20k/month of drugs, but he doesn't cash all that out perhaps to avoid scrutiny because it's difficult to get that much cash out, so there are a whole bunch of bitcoins in his wallet doing nothing also. The value of each bitcoin is therefore determined by the number circulating, and the speed with which they are bought and sold (each new drugs buyer will buy more btc, and because the number of buyers exceeds sellers, the price therefore rises).

The bottom line is that the coins are definitely useful for drug dealing, and over time the volume of drugs being sold will increase and therefore the price of BTC increases too. OTOH, there are unknown millions of BTC waiting in speculators wallets, for the chance to sell, and when prices get high enough, they are likely to sell. Because early participants received $millions of bitcoins for nothing, bitcoin is extremely risky, because nobody has the first idea about how many btc are actually circulating, and how many are hoarded by early adopters.

If for example 1m btc circulate, and 9m are hoarded, then that spells a huge risk for any johnny-come-lately speculator buying in at 10,000x times the price paid by early adopters, because those early hoarders, may very reasonably decide that they can turn their millions of bitcoins into $$$, and hence into yachts, mansions, and so on, whereas the bitcoins themselves aren't much use - there's only so much smack anyone needs. :lol: Despite what proponents claim, bitcoins have very little utility, and cash although losing its value over time, is still going to be worth over 90% of its current value in a years time.

There is of course greed motivating almost all the speculators, those buying in at $150 see the rise from $15 and want it to go to $1500, those who bought in at $0.015 could see $150 and think 'I'm rich now, but I want to be Bill Gates', and so on, but large 'bigger sucker' sales at prices that will make the big holders fabulously wealthy are absolutely the only rational choice.

If you bought 10BTC at $150 = $1500, and the price goes to $300 = $3,000, or $750, then neither movement has made you poor or wealthy, and you can just let it ride.

If you bought 15000 BTC at $0.10 in 2010 = $1500, then at the peak of $240 yesterday, you had $3.6 million. At that level it would be very stupid not to sell because there is nothing underpinning those values - bitcoin generate no income, and the fundamental price is not clear.

As long as there are more speculators willing to buy in, then the price can continue to rise, but if the early adopters cashing out their multi-million dollar gains continue to sell, the money velocity will increase, because the new buyers are speculators, and are likely to panic sell, take profits, etc., and because the money is divided between many market participants.

So instead of perhaps having 1 million of BTC available to buy drugs, because of the sales of early hoarders, the amount of BTC available to buy drugs might increase to 3 million BTC, and if $15 was a justifiable price previously based on the amount of BTC circulating compared to the volume of drugs being sold, then the new justifiable price would be $5.

And of course if the drug dealing got shut down, then the price might fall to zero.

Either way, those with long-held large bitcoin holdings at this point are very rich and rationally should sell. The effect of speculators wanting to buy in at 1000x their buying price and also get rich (from an even bigger sucker) isn't clear, but what is clear is that it is absolutely irrational to put any significant amount of your personal wealth into bitcoins.
 

bb21

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Thanks, Death and soil. Most interesting, and a little scary tbh. I certainly won't be investing. :)
 

soil

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A brief timeline:

February 2011: bitcoin hits $1
May-June 8 2011: bitcoin runs up from $1 to $32, reaching $206 million total cap
June-October 2011: bitcoin crashes and slumps, falling below $2
October 2011-January 2013 - bitcoin rises steadily to around $14
January-April 2013 - bitcoin jumps to around $300 before crashing down to $80
April-July 2013 - bitcoin rises and falls between around $150 and a low of $69
July-October 2013 - rises steadily up to $200
October 2 2013 - Silk Road drugs site closed down by FBI, bitcoin price does not fall
November 2013 - rises to $800 before falling down to $500, now at over $1000, much demand from China

I had 16 bitcoins, which I sold for around £1800 in April. Today they would be worth £10k, but of course tomorrow they could be worth nothing.
 

mikeolsen

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I'd love to order a pizza one day using a bitcoin and I don't think that's very far off - as soon as the likes of PayPal will start accepting and recognizing it as currency, I think there could be a chance.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I don't know if this true, but it is said in certain radio quarters that someone who had forgotten that he had some of these items decided to install a new hard drive into his computer and did not transfer everything over from the old hard drive to the new hard drive, then took his old hard drive to a refuse disposal facility. A few days later, he heard about bitcoins in the news and this brought back memories of what he actually had in number which would have been worth quite an amount of money when redeemed, but of course, the item was said to be many metres under the ground level by then.

Do not ask me to start putting links up, as in my present medical condition, I am not supposed to raise my stress level.
 

Yew

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Paul I believe it was on radio 4.


And that is why I'm currently using an online BitWallet. Albeit with 0.00016BTC in it currently. Hopefully a planned upgrade will increase my productivity :D
 

Clip

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Paul I believe it was on radio 4.


And that is why I'm currently using an online BitWallet. Albeit with 0.00016BTC in it currently. Hopefully a planned upgrade will increase my productivity :D

Are you mining then? Chances are you will spend more in powering your PC to mine Bitcoin over a year then you will actually earn. It is getting harder and harder to access each block and therefore more and more power is needed to do such a job.

Id watch your leccy meter if I were you.
 

Yew

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Are you mining then? Chances are you will spend more in powering your PC to mine Bitcoin over a year then you will actually earn. It is getting harder and harder to access each block and therefore more and more power is needed to do such a job.

Id watch your leccy meter if I were you.

I'm gambling that based on previous performance, that if BTC keeps going up in value, it will work out. or there will be a crash, and the block difficulty will go down and make it easier to mine.


And its nice to see a number going up. I just wish I had started mining in my student flat with leccy included :D
 

maniacmartin

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When I was a student my uni had an electricity meter for every room, and billed us for it termly!
 

Clip

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I'm gambling that based on previous performance, that if BTC keeps going up in value, it will work out. or there will be a crash, and the block difficulty will go down and make it easier to mine.


And its nice to see a number going up. I just wish I had started mining in my student flat with leccy included :D

It will never become easier to mine. It was not set up in such a way because iif it was then they wouldve gone already. As more get discovered the algorythyms become more and more complex. The price rising and falling is generally due to people buying and selling - not on how much is being mined right now.

Im just saying be very careful. Looking at how much you have its going to take you ages to even get 1 full coin.
 

bb21

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I don't know if this true, but it is said in certain radio quarters that someone who had forgotten that he had some of these items decided to install a new hard drive into his computer and did not transfer everything over from the old hard drive to the new hard drive, then took his old hard drive to a refuse disposal facility. A few days later, he heard about bitcoins in the news and this brought back memories of what he actually had in number which would have been worth quite an amount of money when redeemed, but of course, the item was said to be many metres under the ground level by then.

Do not ask me to start putting links up, as in my present medical condition, I am not supposed to raise my stress level.

I believe this is the guy you are referring to, Paul.
 

starrymarkb

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Paul I believe it was on radio 4.


And that is why I'm currently using an online BitWallet. Albeit with 0.00016BTC in it currently. Hopefully a planned upgrade will increase my productivity :D

Be wary of online wallets. I lost about £25 worth in the Inputs.io hack/scam. There are allegations of it being an inside job!

Also if you are mining you will need special hardware now. I'm building a small rig based on a Raspberry Pi and a USB asic - total power used is about 4W but I'm building for fun rather then profit ;) - if you are using a PC you are better off mining some of the alternative coins and converting them.
 
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Clip

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And theres lots of scams going on with the mining hardware too - one company has benn getting peoples money for the stuff, building them, using them to mine and then sending them off to the purchaser when they are done adn obsolete. be very wary.

And yeah try something like litecoin instead
 

soil

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The whole thing is scam city. There are several dozen alternatives, a non-complete list is here:

http://coinmarketcap.com
Peer Coin, Litecoin and Namecoin have all risen 15x in a month.

Quark Coin has gone up 1000-fold.

Of course with the smaller coins the prices are highly theoretical - you might be able to get in for £100 or something like that, but trying to actually get any real money out is unlikely.

There are still plenty of bigger fools around though, it seems, so who knows.
 

Clip

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Reading some posts, why was the word "mining" thought to be a description to use when bitcoins were being discussed.

Because thats what you have to do to uncover 'new' bitcoins as you are 'mining' something for the coins.

The whole thing is a programme, so imagine a big feild and the developers have cut that feild up into chunks. The first few chunks are easy for people to mine for the coins as it is new and is made easy. But as with mining for gold and such like, as the first righ vein gets taken out it is harder and harder and more expensive to get into the mine for the rest of it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Because thats what you have to do to uncover 'new' bitcoins as you are 'mining' something for the coins.

The whole thing is a programme, so imagine a big feild and the developers have cut that feild up into chunks. The first few chunks are easy for people to mine for the coins as it is new and is made easy. But as with mining for gold and such like, as the first righ vein gets taken out it is harder and harder and more expensive to get into the mine for the rest of it.

I am indeed indebted to you for this full and detailed explanation.
 
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