Birmingham to London

[Mojo]

Having trouble here trying to work out the restrictions for a Birmingham New Street to London Euston Super Off-Peak Return (London Midland).

Avantix Traveller NFM01 has:

Restriction : LK
MONDAYS to FRIDAYS:           
                              
OUTWARD TRAVEL                
Not valid for travel on trains
timed to arrive at London     
Terminals before 1300.        
                              
RETURN TRAVEL                 
Not valid for travel on trains
timed to depart London        
Terminals before 1030.        
                              
Not valid for travel on trains
timed to depart between 1630  
and 1930.                     
SATURDAYS, SUNDAYS and BANK   
HOLIDAYS:                     
                              
By any train.

National Rail Enquiries (website), Evolvi and NXEC journey planners however show it as invalid on trains departing between 16.30 and 19.30.

However a London Midland ticket office told me the outward is valid for arriving at Euston any time after 13.00 and so did Virgin's ticket machine at New Street. National Rail Enquiries (telephone) also told me I could use it for arrivals after 13.00.

Does anyone know the actual restriction. The way I initially read it was that the evening restriction only applies for the return, but the way the journey planners have it make me wonder whether it applies for all.

Given at the point of sale (I've just bought it from the Virgin machine at New St) I was informed that the only restriction was London arrivals before 13.00, I don't doubt that I'll be able to use it, but does anyone know the actual restriction?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, you can use the outward in the evening peak. I think the online systems have interpreted it wrong, probably some sort of data input error. It'll probably take them a year to fix it. :roll: It took GNER/Thetrainline a year to fix the lack of railcard availability on 'GDR' tickets between Peterborough and Doncaster/York a while back. The drones who man the helpdesks just give standard responses and do absolutely nothing to fix it.

 

[87015]

Avantix has a number of errors on these London Midland fares so don't take it as gospel. The journey planners are more likely to be correct as these have been updated and work as they should.

For starters all references to "London Terminals" are wrong, this should read "London Midland Terminals".

I don't travel southbound on outward portions so haven't experienced your scenario myself.

 

[Ascot]

Aren't they changing the restriction in the next NFM though to give evening restrictions? London Midland having their own restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

Avantix has a number of errors on these London Midland fares so don't take it as gospel.

But doesn't Avantix just reproduce what "The manual" says? can you give any examples where it differs?

The journey planners are more likely to be correct as these have been updated and work as they should.

They often don't work as they should!

For starters all references to "London Terminals" are wrong, this should read "London Midland Terminals".

No, it's always London Terminals. Doesn't mean the ticket is valid into more than one terminal though. e.g. AP tickets are issued to "London Terminals" but, by definition, are only valid into the terminal their train departs from/arrives at.

 

[glynn80]

FRPP states the following for the restriction LK:

Mondays to Fridays

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to ARRIVE London Terminals before 1300.

Not valid for travel on northbound London Midland services timed to DEPART London Terminals or any other station, before 1030.

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays

By any London Midland train.


So the there IS a difference between Avantix and the Fares Manual, ie. Avantix in this case has entered into the Return travel section the information that is meant to apply to both portions. So no you cannot use the Outward portion in the evening peak (or the return portion for that matter).

 

[yorkie]

But if you are told it's valid, and you have looked it up on a source that is publicly available (which Avantix is now) then that cannot, legally, be overruled by a hidden publication that is not for public use. It would not stand up in any court.

 

[glynn80]

But if you are told it's valid, and you have looked it up on a source that is publicly available (which Avantix is now) then that cannot, legally, be overruled by a hidden publication that is not for public use. It would not stand up in any court.

I'm saying it isn't valid on the rules given, if we are talking legally then all routes, whether or not classified under the routeing guide are probably valid. As a primary principle of contract law is that the terms of the contract must be known to all parties and available for scrutiny. There is thus a sound argument that the principles of the routeing guide should be publicly available to enable compliance, which they are not.

If we look at this sensibly, most people don't post on this section of the forum looking to have to go to court to argue the case their ticket is valid. They want to have the clearly defined rules (obviously in this case there has been confusion but if you ask many people on here they will look in the FRPP for you to clarify anything) show their ticket is either valid or not and thus if they encounter any trouble from overzealous guards they have the back up of their ticket being 100% valid.

 

[87015]

FRPP states the following for the restriction LK:

Mondays to Fridays

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to ARRIVE London Terminals before 1300.

Not valid for travel on northbound London Midland services timed to DEPART London Terminals or any other station, before 1030.

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays

By any London Midland train.


So the there IS a difference between Avantix and the Fares Manual, ie. Avantix in this case has entered into the Return travel section the information that is meant to apply to both portions. So no you cannot use the Outward portion in the evening peak (or the return portion for that matter).

These are the restrictions which are correct in both theory and practise. As I said, Avantix is wrong. If you want to go to court over it be my guest, but 99.9% of people would rather save the hassle and just be valid.