Birmingham to Bristol Electrification

[507020]

Presumably at some point, consideration will eventually have to turn towards replacing the Cross Country Voyager fleet, and how this pans out will, in turn, affect decisions over electrifying not just Bristol - Birmingham but also further Southwest towards Exeter and Plymouth, as well as the conventional (i.e. not HS2) routes from Birmingham towards Yorkshire, the Northeast and Scotland.

The Voyagers and Meridians are DEMUs. Is it not possible for someone to stick a pantograph on one of them and progressively electrify the CrossCountry network with the Voyagers running on electric power under the wires for another 20 years with the aim that the whole thing will be done by then so they can be replaced with pure EMUs?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Presumably a lot cheaper to electrify Birmingham - Derby than to build a new HS2. By then MML Derby - Sheffield should be electrified. Electrify Chesterfield - Rotherham via Barrow Hill and on to the north!

Yes, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to look at Birmingham - Bristol electrification as a stand-alone project. Too many services use the route that go much further afield.

Whichever outcome of HS2 is eventually delivered (or maybe not!), the conventional NESW routes, as well as Hereford - Worcester - Birmingham, Worcester - Bristol - South Coast, all need to be taken into account when speculating about electrification, rolling stock policies etc. along this line of route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2021 ==

The Voyagers and Meridians are DEMUs. Is it not possible for someone to stick a pantograph on one of them and progressively electrify the CrossCountry network with the Voyagers running on electric power under the wires for another 20 years with the aim that the whole thing will be done by then so they can be replaced with pure EMUs?

Well, yes, I suppose in the Speculative Ideas forum anything is possible! Though given the stately progress made by Porterbrook and VivaRail in converting “pre-loved” stock to new means of propulsion, it is not unlikely that the Voyagers will be life-expired before a working prototype emerges!!

I think though, my main point is that we can’t practicably consider electrifying Bristol to Birmingham on its own, too much other stuff has inputs and outputs affected by this.

And perhaps something for a separate thread topic, but is the travelling environment offered by the Voyagers going to be attractive, or even acceptable, in 10 or 20 years time?

 

[zwk500]

The Voyagers and Meridians are DEMUs. Is it not possible for someone to stick a pantograph on one of them and progressively electrify the CrossCountry network with the Voyagers running on electric power under the wires for another 20 years with the aim that the whole thing will be done by then so they can be replaced with pure EMUs?

I believe this was attempted in some form under 'Project Thor'. Funnily enough, it was rather more complicated than just nailing a coat hanger to the top.

Cross country will always be a pain to electrify as it's route crosses the major corridors (and therefore most likely electrified lines), rather than being part of a core/branch network. Electrification is better focussed at suburban commuter services first, number 1 priority for Birmingham should be the Snow Hill lines. The benefits of lighter weight at the rail, better acceleration and lack of point-of-use air pollution will be far greater for the intense WMT service through central Birmingham than XC's Long-distance operations.

 

[507020]

Well, yes, I suppose in the Speculative Ideas forum anything is possible! Though given the stately progress made by Porterbrook and VivaRail in converting “pre-loved” stock to new means of propulsion, it is not unlikely that the Voyagers will be life-expired before a working prototype emerges!!

I think though, my main point is that we can’t practicably consider electrifying Bristol to Birmingham on its own, too much other stuff has inputs and outputs affected by this.

And perhaps something for a separate thread topic, but is the travelling environment offered by the Voyagers going to be attractive, or even acceptable, in 10 or 20 years time?

Is the travelling environment offered by the Voyagers attractive, or even acceptable, today? In all seriousness I’ve never had any issues with them when I’ve travelled on them, but then I’d probably think less of them if I’d ever been all the way from Penzance to Aberdeen, which coincidentally is the same route that would end up needing to be electrified for Bromsgrove - Bristol to reach its full potential.

Nailing a coat hanger to the top of a Voyager to convert a Diesel train to electric would of course be the opposite of Porterbrook’s efforts to sellotape an engine to the bottom of a Class 319 to convert electric trains Diesel. The interior of a 319/769 definitely isn’t attractive, or even acceptable!

I believe this was attempted in some form under 'Project Thor'. Funnily enough, it was rather more complicated than just nailing a coat hanger to the top.

I believe that a wardrobe also needs to be fitted in conjunction with the coat hanger to house electrical equipment. A worst case scenario would be if Bombardier thought that since the traction motors were always going to be powered by on board Diesel engines, that they should run off a non standard voltage. If they are just standard EMU motors, then other EMU equipment can be fitted and they can run as EMUs. It should at least be tested on a surplus Avanti unit when they come off lease.

 

[Mikey C]

I believe this was attempted in some form under 'Project Thor'. Funnily enough, it was rather more complicated than just nailing a coat hanger to the top.

Cross country will always be a pain to electrify as it's route crosses the major corridors (and therefore most likely electrified lines), rather than being part of a core/branch network. Electrification is better focussed at suburban commuter services first, number 1 priority for Birmingham should be the Snow Hill lines. The benefits of lighter weight at the rail, better acceleration and lack of point-of-use air pollution will be far greater for the intense WMT service through central Birmingham than XC's Long-distance operations.

Replace the Voyager with Bimodes, and you'll have a go anywhere train that can use the electrified sections as and when they are done.

 

[zwk500]

Is the travelling environment offered by the Voyagers attractive, or even acceptable, today? In all seriousness I’ve never had any issues with them when I’ve travelled on them, but then I’d probably think less of them if I’d ever been all the way from Penzance to Aberdeen, which coincidentally is the same route that would end up needing to be electrified for Bromsgrove - Bristol to reach its full potential.

I personally find the travelling environment no better or worse than any other train introduced around that time or since. Although the XC voyagers do tend to have less legroom than I'd like, as well as the eternal issue with lining the seats up with window pillars.

Nailing a coat hanger to the top of a Voyager to convert a Diesel train to electric would of course be the opposite of Porterbrook’s efforts to sellotape an engine to the bottom of a Class 319 to convert electric trains Diesel. The interior of a 319/769 definitely isn’t attractive, or even acceptable!

The trains fill a short-term need, and importantly already had a functionality that adds to the cost of newbuilds - dual voltage.

I believe that a wardrobe also needs to be fitted in conjunction with the coat hanger to house electrical equipment. A worst case scenario would be if Bombardier thought that since the traction motors were always going to be powered by on board Diesel engines, that they should run off a non standard voltage. If they are just standard EMU motors, then other EMU equipment can be fitted and they can run as EMUs. It should at least be tested on a surplus Avanti unit when they come off lease.

See: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/project-thor-evoyager.79563/
I'm not a rolling stock or electrical engineer so I don't understand the ins and outs, there are others on here who do that may well come along and fill out some more detail.

Replace the Voyager with Bimodes, and you'll have a go anywhere train that can use the electrified sections as and when they are done.

This would be the optimum option, if you had somewhere to send the redundant Voyagers. Although it would also, perversely, reduce pressure to electrify XC as a network. What I imagine would happen would be the focus would switch to local connections (Birmingham Commuter, Bristol Metro, Yorkshire locals) and XC would just play pantograph yo-yo until enough of the network was wired it was worth filling in the blanks.

 

[507020]

The trains fill a short-term need, and importantly already had a functionality that adds to the cost of newbuilds - dual voltage.

The Northern 769s have had their 3rd rail capability removed and can only operate on 25kV or Diesel and the TfW 769s have also had their pantographs removed and can only run as DEMUs.

This would be the optimum option, if you had somewhere to send the redundant Voyagers. Although it would also, perversely, reduce pressure to electrify XC as a network. What I imagine would happen would be the focus would switch to local connections (Birmingham Commuter, Bristol Metro, Yorkshire locals) and XC would just play pantograph yo-yo until enough of the network was wired it was worth filling in the blanks.

The issue is, do we have the money for more new bi-modes and do we really want to be scrapping the Voyagers which aren’t particularly old if we haven’t got any services for them to run which don’t involve running mostly under the wires? The 319s didn’t matter as much being twice as old.

We’re there no bi-mode trains anywhere in the world in 2002? They were originally ordered to run on partially electrified routes so surely the option would have even been useful when they were new.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

...all the way from Penzance to Aberdeen, which coincidentally is the same route that would end up needing to be electrified for Bromsgrove - Bristol to reach its full potential.

Not sure the extremities need to be electrified. Plymouth to York would cover the core of the NESW Cross Country network, with whatever replaces the Voyagers being a bimode electro-battery/electro-powerpack of some kind, running off the main juice on the core part of the route and using their internal power resources to extend to Penzance, Paignton, Aberdeen or Inverness.

Coathangers? Meh, worked OK when I snapped the radio aerial on my Morris Marina!

...do we really want to be scrapping the Voyagers which aren’t particularly old...

The thing is, we are looking at a project that is likely to be 10 to 15 years to delivery. By then, the Voyagers will be beyond the point of not being “particularly old”.

 

[ABB125]

Coathangers? Meh, worked OK when I snapped the radio aerial on my Morris Marina!

I've seen a screwdriver being used as a radio aerial by some builders...

 

[The Planner]

Presumably a lot cheaper to electrify Birmingham - Derby than to build a new HS2. By then MML Derby - Sheffield should be electrified. Electrify Chesterfield - Rotherham via Barrow Hill and on to the north!

I expect you are being facetious, but it would need a tad more than electrification to get up to a decent standard.

 

[Killingworth]

I expect you are being facetious, but it would need a tad more than electrification to get up to a decent standard.

Coats and cloth!

 

[Grumpy]

Surely what is needed is completion of the GW electrification to Oxford and Bristol.
Then transfer/refurbish surplus EMU's to the Western to enable some EMU Paddington-Bristol/Cardiff services to be run by EMU.
Thereby freeing up some 8xx bi-modes to run on such as Manchester-Bristol (and beyond) and getting rid of some Voyagers.

 

[Tobbes]

On the 2040-45 timescale, there will need to be almost complete electrification of the primary routes if the Govt is to meet its climate change objectives/COP26 obligations. Rail is comparatively easy to decarbonise, and therefore will (should!) be a priority (and that's before the usual points about electrics being quieter/lasting longer/accelerating faster). I (hope) that the Govt comes out with a funded plan to progressively electrify through to 2040 next year, and doing so on a rolling basis would clearly lead to efficiencies.

The timing of each individual electrification should presumably also depend on what enhancements are expected; e.g., if you're going to redouble the Cotswold Line in full, better do that before electrification; similarly, if you're going to rebuild Stratford-Upon-Avon to Honeybourne, it makes sense to electrify the whole route at once (presumably? Don't tell EWR.....)

 

[JKF]

Sometimes I wonder if they’ll have even managed to do Temple Meads to Parkway by 2040. When is that one even going to happen?

 

[zwk500]

Sometimes I wonder if they’ll have even managed to do Temple Meads to Parkway by 2040. When is that one even going to happen?

That requires Bristol East Junction to be remodelled, which is currently happening. I dont think any extension of the OLE has been committed, ut it could be a lot quicker than 20 years.

 

[Falcon1200]

Surely what is needed is completion of the GW electrification to Oxford and Bristol.
Then transfer/refurbish surplus EMU's to the Western to enable some EMU Paddington-Bristol/Cardiff services to be run by EMU.
Thereby freeing up some 8xx bi-modes to run on such as Manchester-Bristol (and beyond) and getting rid of some Voyagers.

I very much agree, with the proviso that electrification should continue to Weston-Super-Mare (initially) allowing some of the local services around Bristol to be EMU too. Although I would hope London-Bristol and Cardiff EMUs would be new Inter-City types with the appropriate seating !

 

[Aictos]

I very much agree, with the proviso that electrification should continue to Weston-Super-Mare (initially) allowing some of the local services around Bristol to be EMU too. Although I would hope London-Bristol and Cardiff EMUs would be new Inter-City types with the appropriate seating !

And eventually extended to Plymouth or minimum Exeter St Davids.

 

[Meerkat]

Is Filton really a priority for electrification, as IC is bi-mode and it creates practically no local all electric services?
I would rather GWR electrification concentrated on the line to Westbury to electrify the stone trains (and electrifies Bedwyn services).

 

[The Planner]

Is Filton really a priority for electrification, as IC is bi-mode and it creates practically no local all electric services?
I would rather GWR electrification concentrated on the line to Westbury to electrify the stone trains (and electrifies Bedwyn services).

I would love to see the power modelling for the supply for a 4400 tonne Merehead train up to Acton!

 

[Meerkat]

I would love to see the power modelling for the supply for a 4400 tonne Merehead train up to Acton!

Do you think the already electrified bits would need power reinforcement then?
They seem the sort of trains that really should be electric, and presumably have many years of near guaranteed freight business??
Back on topic what would you need to electrify to get electric freight up Lickey?

 

[The Planner]

Do you think the already electrified bits would need power reinforcement then?
They seem the sort of trains that really should be electric, and presumably have many years of near guaranteed freight business??
Back on topic what would you need to electrify to get electric freight up Lickey?

It will probably need looking at around Reading, especially if you cannot guarantee they won't be brought to a stand. As for trains up the Lickey, to be belt and braces you need wires to Margam/Swansea, Chepstow/Lydney, Westerleigh/Bromsgrove, then Birmingham Derby and on towards the Scunthorpe/Immingham direction.

 

[ABB125]

Back on topic what would you need to electrify to get electric freight up

Most of the freight runs to/from South Wales, so Bromsgrove to Newport would be ideal. Traction change at Llanwern yard for anything going beyond Cardiff (most of the steel goes to Margam yard).

Edit: plus obviously various routes north of Birmingham

 

[Elecman]

I believe this was attempted in some form under 'Project Thor'. Funnily enough, it was rather more complicated than just nailing a coat hanger to the top.

Project Thor was fitting a new coach into the existing units with an Pantograph and Transformer and connecting into the existing power bus, this effectively increasing seating capacity and producing a Bimode unit.
the project stalled for a variety of reasons including the fact that the government wanted the coaches built in GB but Bombardier were going to build in Belgium. There is nothing inherently difficult in connecting a new pantograph car into the set and powering up the power bus

 

[Meerkat]

It will probably need looking at around Reading, especially if you cannot guarantee they won't be brought to a stand. As for trains up the Lickey, to be belt and braces you need wires to Margam/Swansea, Chepstow/Lydney, Westerleigh/Bromsgrove, then Birmingham Derby and on towards the Scunthorpe/Immingham direction.

What’s the issue with Reading?
Bristol-Birmingham drops down my priority list then. Get XC bimodes and look elsewhere first.
I would electrify to Worcester, after Snow Hill done, hoping battery bimodes can get to Hereford from there.
But commuter and missing freight links come before filling in XC for me.

 

[D365]

I believe that a wardrobe also needs to be fitted in conjunction with the coat hanger to house electrical equipment. A worst case scenario would be if Bombardier thought that since the traction motors were always going to be powered by on board Diesel engines, that they should run off a non standard voltage. If they are just standard EMU motors, then other EMU equipment can be fitted and they can run as EMUs. It should at least be tested on a surplus Avanti unit when they come off lease.

Electrical voltage was the least of the problems when it came to "electrifying" the Voyagers!

 

[The Planner]

What’s the issue with Reading?
Bristol-Birmingham drops down my priority list then. Get XC bimodes and look elsewhere first.
I would electrify to Worcester, after Snow Hill done, hoping battery bimodes can get to Hereford from there.
But commuter and missing freight links come before filling in XC for me.

Can't remember if the section between Southcote Jn and the reliefs has a dip under the flyover and also the chances of getting a clean run across.

 

[Meerkat]

Can't remember if the section between Southcote Jn and the reliefs has a dip under the flyover and also the chances of getting a clean run across.

I didn’t realise that the power supply wouldn’t be able to cope with such demands! I assumed it would have plenty of capacity available for extra trains.

 

[The Planner]

I didn’t realise that the power supply wouldn’t be able to cope with such demands! I assumed it would have plenty of capacity available for extra trains.

It will have an assumed capacity with some bunce on top. It may have factored the jumbo stone trains in, it may not. It is an issue regardless, it isn't just a case of slinging wires up, the supply feeds are the bigger issues. HS2 north of Crewe will be causing some sleepless nights I expect.

 

[XAM2175]

Project Thor was fitting a new coach into the existing units with an Pantograph and Transformer and connecting into the existing power bus, this effectively increasing seating capacity and producing a Bimode unit.
the project stalled for a variety of reasons including the fact that the government wanted the coaches built in GB but Bombardier were going to build in Belgium. There is nothing inherently difficult in connecting a new pantograph car into the set and powering up the power bus

A bit more than that, because Voyagers don't have a traction power bus through the whole train - so after the addition of the new vehicle the existing vehicles would have had to be modified too.

There was a suggestion at the time that the whole-project cost of conversion exceeded the cost of simply buying new trains, which I consider to be reasonably plausible even if it's never been confirmed.

 

[adrock1976]

A non-stop would barely save anything. The Tamworth/Burton stopper a little better. But there is nothing else more semi/local on that route which could benefit.

Better returns on routes with more start/stop, especially those with hills. See Cardiff Valleys for instance.

Don't forget Transport for West Midlands (and/or an organisation with "Connect" in its title) have proposed the Camp Hill curves to enable Birmingham Moor Street - Tamworth/Burton/Derby local service, combined with the reopening of Bromford Bridge (for the Fort) and Castle Bromwich stations.

This would also need proper quad track from Landor Street to at least Water Orton, with grade separation there too.