Birmingham New Street pollution

[AndrewE]

tonight
It all depends on the diagrams I guess, as long as the range is sufficient for the job it doesn't matter that it's less than diesel. The Alstom iLint has a range of 1000km but not sure what range they would need for those Birmingham routes.

It will be interesting to see how they manage the fuelling (stock and supply) and what the range turns out to be.

 

[driver_m]

Funnily enough @Bletchleyite , there's a mod being introduced to gradually shut down the voyagers engines one by one when sat awaiting next turn of duty after a short period than present. Can't say whether it's just VT ones though or both fleets. We've long been instructed to do engine shutdowns when left for periods where they'll be sat unattended for over 20m. Though at Euston, this is largely pointless on the xx39 arrivals as they're usually back out at xx10 so realistically would only be unattended for about 10-15m .So the mod will be more use there. Plus, many a time, the fitters want them left running to do maintenance on them.

 

[DarloRich]

However I don't expect it will change until government puts more regulation in place to force the station operator to meet pollution measurements. Meanwhile the passengers and especially the workers will bear the brunt of the harm.

the staff exposure concerns me. Normal passengers are only on the platform for a few minutes before their train. However if there really was an issue i cant imagine the RMT HSE reps would not be all over it.

 

[Andy25]

It will be interesting to see how they manage the fuelling (stock and supply) and what the range turns out to be.

Ilint is 650km range, initial routes being looked at are all in areas where local chemical industries produce Hydrogen as a bi-product so this limits infrastructure requirements.

But ultimately hydrogen is transported by road every day for other reasons so on smaller scale it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[AndrewE]

But ultimately hydrogen is transported by road every day for other reasons so on smaller scale it shouldn't be an issue.

I beg to differ: it is currently made and used in top-tier Comah sites and included under the lower level of COMAH -Control of Major Accident Hazards - (if holding >5Tonnes) and I predict that any wider use will be absolutely fraught with problems, especially when (if) it gets out into general use.
We shall see...

 

[Andy25]

I beg to differ: it is currently made and used in top-tier Comah sites and included under the lower level of COMAH -Control of Major Accident Hazards - (if holding >5Tonnes) and I predict that any wider use will be absolutely fraught with problems, especially when (if) it gets out into general use.
We shall see...

I'm sure there are control requirements but there shouldn't be anything particularly novel about it?

After all there are hydrogen refueling stations for cars which is similar but on a smaller scale.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....hydrogen-fuel-network-grows-new-pump-m40/amp/

 

[AndrewE]

I'm sure there are control requirements but there shouldn't be anything particularly novel about it?
After all there are hydrogen refueling stations for cars which is similar but on a smaller scale.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....hydrogen-fuel-network-grows-new-pump-m40/amp/

Yes, 2 actually, according to the article. The new one is not even out in the open, but actually under the canopy! And the new one makes the hydrogen on site from electricity...

 

[JonasB]

Yes, 2 actually, according to the article. The new one is not even out in the open, but actually under the canopy! And the new one makes the hydrogen on site from electricity...

So basically, hydrogen is just a way to store electricity. But is it better than batteries? And I guess one advantage that batteries have is that they can be recharged via regenerative braking (and the overhead wires).

 

[Andy25]

So basically, hydrogen is just a way to store electricity. But is it better than batteries? And I guess one advantage that batteries have is that they can be recharged via regenerative braking (and the overhead wires).

Yes, hydrogen is effectively an energy storage medium.

Not sure on exact figures but since the range of a pure battery train at the moment is about 60 miles and hydrogen about 500 miles I'd guess hydrogen is better.

The iLint hydrogen train produces electricity from the fuel cells in to a battery which then powers the traction and auxiliaries so is still capable of regenerative braking.

 

[hwl]

Yes, hydrogen is effectively an energy storage medium.

Not sure on exact figures but since the range of a pure battery train at the moment is about 60 miles and hydrogen about 500 miles I'd guess hydrogen is better.

The iLint hydrogen train produces electricity from the fuel cells in to a battery which then powers the traction and auxiliaries so is still capable of regenerative braking.

The problem is the inefficiency of pressuring the hydrogen so a battery train has about 80% of the energy efficiency of OHLE but a hydrogen one just 30%.
the Ilint needs batteries for regenerative braking in addition so is very heavy.

 

[Mikey C]

I imagine the time taken to fill a tank with hydrogen vs the time needed to charge the batteries will also be important.

 

[snowball]

I imagine the time taken to fill a tank with hydrogen vs the time needed to charge the batteries will also be important.

Time taken to refill hydrogen tanks is, I imagine, short, but it is dead time. Recharging batteries is best done from overhead lines or third rail, on the move while earning revenue.

 

[edwin_m]

I imagine the time taken to fill a tank with hydrogen vs the time needed to charge the batteries will also be important.

A car might need to be fuelled/charged during a journey, so it is important that it can be done quickly. A diesel train is only fuelled when on depot so this is less time-critical. A battery train would similarly be charged at leisure during the night, or charged from the supply when running on electrified sections. But if these are insufficient then it would need charging during a stop, which is time-critical even at some termini. However it's unlikely that a train could be fuelled with hydrogen anywhere other than a depot, so it would have to carry enough to cover its full journey and preferably a full day's work.

 

[Mikey C]

A car might need to be fuelled/charged during a journey, so it is important that it can be done quickly. A diesel train is only fuelled when on depot so this is less time-critical. A battery train would similarly be charged at leisure during the night, or charged from the supply when running on electrified sections. But if these are insufficient then it would need charging during a stop, which is time-critical even at some termini. However it's unlikely that a train could be fuelled with hydrogen anywhere other than a depot, so it would have to carry enough to cover its full journey and preferably a full day's work.

Hydrogen is far less dense than diesel, so unless you fit much larger tanks, it will go far less distance than an equivalent diesel train. Would it be able to last all day, or would you need extra stock to cover units going back to the depot halfway through the day for a refill?

I imagine a battery train would work well on a quiet shuttle type service with ample platform capacity at one end for a top up.

 

[Andy25]

I imagine the time taken to fill a tank with hydrogen vs the time needed to charge the batteries will also be important.

Hydrogen fill time will be much quicker and with present technology give almost an order of magnitude greater range.

 

[Andy25]

The problem is the inefficiency of pressuring the hydrogen so a battery train has about 80% of the energy efficiency of OHLE but a hydrogen one just 30%.
the Ilint needs batteries for regenerative braking in addition so is very heavy.

I think due to the range, batteries need to be discounted right now. If you compare diesel to hydrogen I'd guess the weight is similar. Diesel has an engine and liquid filled fuel tank. Hydrogen has liquid tanks and batteries.

Difference is the emissions. OLE is irrelevant here as we're talking about solutions for non-electrified lines. Discounting electrification as not the most cost effective solution.

 

[Andy25]

Hydrogen is far less dense than diesel, so unless you fit much larger tanks, it will go far less distance than an equivalent diesel train. Would it be able to last all day, or would you need extra stock to cover units going back to the depot halfway through the day for a refill?

I imagine a battery train would work well on a quiet shuttle type service with ample platform capacity at one end for a top up.

Hydrogen currently has a range of 500 miles, so sufficient for many of the shorter daily diagrams but clearly not for others where diesel as you say will have a longer range.

Batteries currently max out at around 60 miles so technology isn't there yet for pure battery power, but can be useful as range extender etc

 

[edwin_m]

I think due to the range, batteries need to be discounted right now. If you compare diesel to hydrogen I'd guess the weight is similar. Diesel has an engine and liquid filled fuel tank. Hydrogen has liquid tanks and batteries.

Hydrogen trains need some traction batteries too, because fuel cells aren't good at varying power demand. The battery gives a boost during acceleration and allows some regeneration.

A quick search tells me that hydrogen has twice as much energy as the same mass of gasoline. However hydrogen is much less dense so needs compressing (which uses energy, as mentioned above) and even then has less energy for the same volume. Once compressed it needs a pressure vessel which will be buikier and heavier than a normal fuel tank, and has to be a sphere or cylinder so less easy to fit in the space available on a train. Trains don't have much of a restriction on weight - if the fuel was a few tonnes heavier it wouldn't make much difference - but volume is much more critical.

 

[londonmidland]

Is there any other station that is almost as bad as New Street regarding air and noise pollution?

Naturally with New Street being enclosed on the platform level, it’s no surprise the station suffers with pollution problems.

I’ve found the biggest contributor to the fumes is from Voyagers. Not much you can do but with the (sometimes) long idling times and the amount of Voyagers in New Street at any one time, it really starts to fill up the air with smoke.

Most noticeable late in the evening when there are a lot of Empty Stock Workings where there can be three or four Voyagers idling away in the platforms for quite a substantial amount of time.

With the installation of extractor fans, this helps to reduce the pollution on ground level but then leads on to another problem - how loud they are.

No, they aren’t deafening but they can still sound quite loud with all of them having been turned on across the station.

Moving back to the subject of Voyagers, surprisingly they seem to be the loudest train which serves New Street. Most noticeably when they pull in and accelerate away, the whole ground shakes. (I’m sure they never used to be this loud though is expected as they get older over time)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those fans are very loud, I've seen them cause issues with a late replatforming of the last train south of Northampton with the announcements being totally inaudible. I expect one or two taxis ended up being called.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd be staggered if any DMUS will be allowed to use New Street in 15/20 years time, with the unacceptable level of air quality at platform level. I can see bimodes being specified where routes aren't fully electrified

 

[Ken H]

Is there any other station that is almost as bad as New Street regarding air and noise pollution?

Naturally with New Street being enclosed on the platform level, it’s no surprise the station suffers with pollution problems.

I’ve found the biggest contributor to the fumes is from Voyagers. Not much you can do but with the (sometimes) long idling times and the amount of Voyagers in New Street at any one time, it really starts to fill up the air with smoke.

Most noticeable late in the evening when there are a lot of Empty Stock Workings where there can be three or four Voyagers idling away in the platforms for quite a substantial amount of time.

With the installation of extractor fans, this helps to reduce the pollution on ground level but then leads on to another problem - how loud they are.

No, they aren’t deafening but they can still sound quite loud with all of them having been turned on across the station.

Moving back to the subject of Voyagers, surprisingly they seem to be the loudest train which serves New Street. Most noticeably when they pull in and accelerate away, the whole ground shakes. (I’m sure they never used to be this loud though is expected as they get older over time)

I hate New St. When i lived in warwickshire i'd drive to a Moor St line station rather than use a service going to New St.

 

[Ken H]

I'd be staggered if any DMUS will be allowed to use New Street in 15/20 years time, with the unacceptable level of air quality at platform level. I can see bimodes being specified where routes aren't fully electrified

maybe the Chase electrics will help a little
maybe central could get some Flex trains for worcester/Gt malvern via lickey? Class 769 maybe.

Remember getting a train out of Brum to Walsall each evening late 1980's. think it was a 312. First real experience if electrics. It rattled over the points, then he accelerated hard up to proof house. That acceleration was a eye opener as to the benefits of electric trains.

Other memories from then was the brummie station announcer reading out the stations for a stopper from New St to Pwllheli. I bet his mates in the next room were pissing themselves.

I also wondered if there was a train to tenby. kept talking about a train on platform 10b. made me laugh in a cold wet winters evening.

 

[superkev]

This topic along with equally polluted Man Vic seems to reappear regularly on here. I wonder if anyone has actually measured pollution levels.
K

 

[Ken H]

This topic along with equally polluted Man Vic seems to reappear regularly on here. I wonder if anyone has actually measured pollution levels.
K

but what was it like when it was full of old DMU's. Some of the cross city ones were appalling.

 

[PHILIPE]

We have had a pollution discussion before approx 3 years ago in a now locked thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/air-quality-in-stations-if-electrification-curbed.138204

Might not be a bad idea to go have a read of it as a matter of interest

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Which all suggests to me that this problem is not going to go away

 

[Llanigraham]

Which all suggests to me that this problem is not going to go away

How can it go away?
Unless you are willing to remove the buildings above it and/or ban all diesel trains then the problem will continue.
It is certainly better now than it was 10 years ago.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

How can it go away?
Unless you are willing to remove the buildings above it and/or ban all diesel trains then the problem will continue.
It is certainly better now than it was 10 years ago.

It can go away by further electrification, not running diesel under the wires etc. Yes of course it costs money but the problem is not insuperable. The threads keep reappearing because something needs doing long term. IMHO. That is why we get repeat threads periodically

 

[Ken H]

How can it go away?
Unless you are willing to remove the buildings above it and/or ban all diesel trains then the problem will continue.
It is certainly better now than it was 10 years ago.

pity they didnt build the extra pantograph coaches for voyagers to make them bi-modes