Birmingham New Street or Wolverhampton?

[beeza1]

Due to no trains running from West Yorks to Man Piccadilly on Sundays I am having to alter my travel plans, I have been quoted £58.50 for an Off Peak Return from my local station to Birmingham New Street travelling via Sheffield, but if I book to Wolverhampton the price drops to £38.80 again travelling via Sheffield, and actually using the same trains as far as Birmingham New Street.
Am I allowed to book a return ticket to Wolverhampton but end my journey at Birmingham New Street, and start my return journey from Birmingham New Street?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for the reply Yorkie, my journey would start at either Honley or Brockholes, (the fares are the same) and would end at Birmingham New Street, I would not use the Birmingham to Wolverhampton part of my ticket, my return journey would start at Birmingham, again I would not use the Wolverhampton part of the ticket, by doing this I can save almost £20. I am in effect paying for a longer journey than I am actually making, what I need to know is if this is allowed.

 

[SS4]

So you're going along the axis of Honley - ? - Sheffield - Derby - Tamworth - Birmingham (notable because unlike via Manchester it does not pass through Wolverhampton en route.)

If so you can't on the outbound but you may on the return (Code 8A)

If you plan to return on the same day check splits at Derby and/or Sheffield.

 

[telstarbox]

Are you travelling back on the same day or a different day?

 

[beeza1]

Thanks for the replies,
No, I am not travelling back the same day, but it will be on a Sunday, hence the need to travel via Sheffield, which is a more expensive route than via Manchester, when I usually "split ticket".

Yes the route is Honley to Sheffield (Northern Rail), Sheffield-Derby-Tamworth-Birmingham (Cross Country),and as stated before, I will not use the Birmingham-Wolverhampton part of the ticket. I can't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do this, as I am actually travelling a shorter distance than I have paid for, bit like buying a loaf of bread and throwing part of it away I suppose.

 

[SS4]

Thanks for the replies,
No, I am not travelling back the same day, but it will be on a Sunday, hence the need to travel via Sheffield, which is a more expensive route than via Manchester, when I usually "split ticket".

Yes the route is Honley to Sheffield (Northern Rail), Sheffield-Derby-Tamworth-Birmingham (Cross Country),and as stated before, I will not use the Birmingham-Wolverhampton part of the ticket. I can't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do this, as I am actually travelling a shorter distance than I have paid for, bit like buying a loaf of bread and throwing part of it away I suppose.

Not really, via Manchester is the shortest route and via Sheffield an longer alternative. Consider buying a meal deal of sandwich, crisps and a drink. If you don't buy crisps you don't get the discount.
The difference in price is because of who prices the tickets

Break of Journey is only forbidden on the outbound portion but of course YMMV, it's acceptable on the return leg.

 

[maniacmartin]

bit like buying a loaf of bread and throwing part of it away i suppose

The rail industry doesn't see it like that.

Different tickets have different validity codes, which determine what times of day you are allowed to travel and whether you may break our journey before reaching the destination. Unless you're buying advance tickets, you can break your journey unless the ticket's validity code say you can't.

You can find validity codes of specific tickets and their meanings most easily through unofficial site http://www.brfares.com/ and also buried in NationalRail.co.uk but handily in this case SS4 has researched it for you.

deleted text

 

[SS4]

If you break your journey when you are not allowed, then this is treated as fare evasion and could land you in trouble.

Isn't it an excess for Break of Journey "offences". See below from section 16 of the CoC

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used.

The SOR is £50 for this route but I'm not sure if the OP would be charged a full excess or half the difference as the offence only affects the outbound leg.


If you do go all the way to Wolves a Wolverhampton plusbus is valid on the metro

 

[ainsworth74]

If you break your journey when you are not allowed, then this is treated as fare evasion and could land you in trouble.

Really? Where are you getting that from? As far as I'm aware the appropriate action is either an excess or a new ticket (in the case of advances).

 

[maniacmartin]

I stand corrected!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If a passenger just exited at an ungated station without attempting to purchase said excess from a guard or ticket office, would that then become fare evasion?

 

[beeza1]

So am I correct in assuming I have to get another train from New Street to Wolves and then get yet another one back to New Street (cost £2), then do the reverse on the return journey,(it would still save me £16), or could I just buy the tickets from Bham to Wlves, and basically not use them but present them when requested?
To travel via Sheffield I need an "all routes" ticket which is quite a bit more expensive than my "split ticket" via Manchester, as I can't return via Manc due to Sunday line closures it does seem a bit unfair that passengers are having to pay more through no fault of their own

 

[SS4]

So am I correct in assuming I have to get another train from New Street to Wolves and then get yet another one back to New Street (cost £2), then do the reverse on the return journey,(it would still save me £16), or could I just buy the tickets from Bham to Wlves, and basically not use them but present them when requested?
To travel via Sheffield I need an "all routes" ticket which is quite a bit more expensive than my "split ticket" via Manchester, as I can't return via Manc due to Sunday line closures it does seem a bit unfair that passengers are having to pay more through no fault of their own

You'd have to travel to Wolves (staying on the train) and then come back (for £2). On the return journey you're fine to start at New Street.

It's because break of journey (which is what stopping short is) is forbidden on the outbound journey but is allowed on the return.

You're not allowed to stop short but you could well get away with it, the inattentiveness of the barrier staff is legendary lol

 

[beeza1]

Thanks SS4. the point is that the train from Sheffield to New Street doesn't go to Wolves, I would have to change at New Street on to a local service and probably waste over an hour, which seems a bit silly as I would already be off the train in Brum!
I will ask at the station before I get my ticket if I am allowed to break my outward journey, as I have been allowed to in the past, but that was on the Manc-Brum route, when I had to spend a short time in Stafford en-route to Brum (I got confirmation this was OK before I bought my ticket).

 

[GadgetMan]

Thanks SS4. the point is that the train from Sheffield to New Street doesn't go to Wolves, I would have to change at New Street on to a local service and probably waste over an hour, which seems a bit silly as I would already be off the train in Brum!
I will ask at the station before I get my ticket if I am allowed to break my outward journey, as I have been allowed to in the past, but that was on the Manc-Brum route, when I had to spend a short time in Stafford en-route to Brum (I got confirmation this was OK before I bought my ticket).

What every one is trying to say to you is;

On the outward leg you are not allowed to end your journey at New Street. However you are allowed to use station facilities as this is not classed as a break of journey. As you are very particular with regards to your diet and only buy your sandwiches from M & S (which is in the station but the public side of ticket barriers), you would need to make your way through the revenue barriers, buy your sandwiches and then we trust you will come back through the barrier to board a train to Wolverhampton .

Your return journey is fine as you can start short at New Street.

 

[John @ home]

You'd have to travel to Wolves (staying on the train) and then come back (for £2).l

No. You don't need to pay an extra £2.

Technically, you need to go to Wolverhampton to complete your journey because break of the outward leg of the journey is not permitted.

You can then return to Birmingham immediately using the return portion of your Honley - Wolverhampton ticket. On arrival back in Birmingham, you are allowed to break your journey because that is permitted on the return leg. You may resume your journey at any time within the one month validity of the ticket.

On resuming your journey to Honley at Birmingham, you may travel by any train at any time on any Permitted Route which does not double back through any of stations you have passed between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

 

[causton]

What every one is trying to say to you is;

On the outward leg you are not allowed to end your journey at New Street. However you are allowed to use station facilities as this is not classed as a break of journey. As you are very particular with regards to your diet and only buy your sandwiches from M & S (which is in the station but the public side of ticket barriers), you would need to make your way through the revenue barriers, buy your sandwiches and then we trust you will come back through the barrier to board a train to Wolverhampton .

Your return journey is fine as you can start short at New Street.

Take up smoking. No don't really, but advance ticket terms and conditions go out the window with the simple phrase:

"Can I go out for a cigarette?"

 

[bb21]

John @ home is correct in that you do not have to purchase the additional single fare between Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton, by following his suggestions.

Of course, if you simply alighted at New Street without actually going through to Wolves and back, and wishes to use station facilities, I will leave it as an exercise for yourself to determine whether the restriction on break of journey is enforceable.

That said, officially you are not permitted to break your journey on the outward portion of your ticket and we do not officially condone such behaviour.

 

[34D]

I will bet £100 that you will be allowed to exit the new street barrier line without problem.

Don't get so worked up about things, read the realistic advice about going to M&S or going for a smoke.

You aware that coaches will run Manchester-Huddlesfield though, aren't you?

 

[IanD]

Take up smoking. No don't really, but advance ticket terms and conditions go out the window with the simple phrase:

"Can I go out for a cigarette?"

I carry an empty fag packet to wave on such occasions.

 

[LexyBoy]

I carry an empty fag packet to wave on such occasions.

The return portion of the ticket would work fine too...

The options are:
1) to travel to Wolverhampton, then immediately use the RTN portion to travel back to New Street where you legitimately break your journey; or
2) to "travel" to Wolverhampton, then immediately use the RTN portion to travel back to New Street where you "legitimately" break your journey.
3) claim to need to leave the barriered area for station facilities or a smoke.

Personally I can't say I'd lose any sleep over option 2.

 

[dvboy]

4. Go out the Victoria Square exit or via the lifts at BHM.

 

[SS4]

No. You don't need to pay an extra £2.

Technically, you need to go to Wolverhampton to complete your journey because break of the outward leg of the journey is not permitted.

You can then return to Birmingham immediately using the return portion of your Honley - Wolverhampton ticket. On arrival back in Birmingham, you are allowed to break your journey because that is permitted on the return leg. You may resume your journey at any time within the one month validity of the ticket.

On resuming your journey to Honley at Birmingham, you may travel by any train at any time on any Permitted Route which does not double back through any of stations you have passed between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

Yes, of course. How could I not see that -facepalm-

 

[island]

I will bet £100 that you will be allowed to exit the new street barrier line without problem.

Don't get so worked up about things, read the realistic advice about going to M&S or going for a smoke.

You aware that coaches will run Manchester-Huddlesfield though, aren't you?

Given that you can get through the barrier at BHM by showing a business card, a post-it note, or a seat reservation for two weeks ago, I think you're safe.

Isn't it an excess for Break of Journey "offences". See below from section 16 of the CoC

The SOR is £50 for this route but I'm not sure if the OP would be charged a full excess or half the difference as the offence only affects the outbound leg.

Would be full difference for a change of ticket type. As for offences, we then get this suggestion:

4. Go out the Victoria Square exit or via the lifts at BHM.

...which sounds suspiciously like incitement to commit an offence under section 5 (3) (a) of the Regulation of Railways Act, 1889 (52 Vic c 57). If you knowingly violate a break of journey restriction with the intent to avoid the full fare due for your journey, I think you are digging a hole for yourself.

As per above, the enforceability of all of these things is of course highly questionable. If an RPI did accost you when you stepped out the exit of BHM, you could make a reasonable case that you are walking to BSW to continue your journey from there, which is AFAIK a permitted route, and walking between stations isn't a break of journey.

Now look what you've done

 

[Wolfie]

You'd have to travel to Wolves (staying on the train) and then come back (for £2). On the return journey you're fine to start at New Street.

It's because break of journey (which is what stopping short is) is forbidden on the outbound journey but is allowed on the return.

You're not allowed to stop short but you could well get away with it, the inattentiveness of the barrier staff is legendary lol

You are exactly quoting the rules.....

I have regularly been allowed through the barriers at Birmingham New Street to buy a drink, have a smoke etc etc

Does anyone track my return?????

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Either say your going to Snow Hill or through the main barriers and if they ask say you intend to go via moor street Moor Street. Could that work?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Either that or just buy a sgb-bmo single and get the Arriva wales train from new street, alight at sgb, then use your other ticket. I believe its not BoJ to use an additional ticket?

 

[Jatos]

Ticket barriers at New Street, what is the point? I really don't get it...

I never seen any RPI staff there either...

 

[island]

Ticket barriers at New Street, what is the point? I really don't get it...

I never seen any RPI staff there either...

They're a highly visible deterrent to casual fare evaders. Serious ones will just buy short tickets from Adderley Park or somewhere, or go out the secret exit (which, incidentally, is where LM RPIs sometimes hang out).