Birmingham New Street M Platforms. A nightmare for completists..

[All platforms]

Here is what i know (or think i know).

They do not exist as far as platform signage or display boards are concerned. the styation itself does not acknowledge them as a thing.
They do not appear on any network rail departure or arrival info - or on any journey planner or indeed anywhere on the website i can find.
3 versions of 12 platforms are confirmed however - so that is normal plus A + B Variants (= 36 ) + of course P4C - the north facing Bay Platform = 37 variants total.
Fairly sure these are doable though.

But then there are the M (for middle) platform outliers that certain apps mention. I have found at various times all 12 variants on RTT for example. There are not many examples in total but they tend to be very early morning or late evening with a few more at weekends. The current signalling works at New Street mean a few more examples show up currently (as VTT) - i digress.

They also exist as far as train dispatch staff are concerned. I never want to interrupt these busy people but in a brief lull, one was kind enough to confirm their daily work sheets do include M variants. Basically they should straddle the A + B platforms but the length of the train can vary and this together with the signalling on each platform can mean there is no catch all designated stop position (or am i wrong?) I was also advised that M could mean a train is sandwiched by other trains at either end of A + B. Or it could mean a coupling or decoupling of 2 trains might make the M appear or disappear as it were.

The quest to therefore get the 12 M variants as well as the conventional 37 means quite a few trips and a lot of planning. Not a problem - however 5 of the 7 variants i have tried so far have been either quite clearly A or B or even another platform entirely - and given the resignalling work there are a lot of late alterations which mean that it is more than a lottery. Fine i understand this. So.. if RTT says M and it actually does start or stop in the middle i will take it as a win. 2 ticked so far.

Short of getting hold of a dispatchers work sheet however (fat chance and quite rightly) i can see no way of knowing for sure... quite frustrating.

Any helpful suggestions or information about this subject gratefully received. Knowing what is (and what is not) possible will make this whole project just that little bit easier. Pretty much a complete novice at this sort of thing but sinking some serious time into it currently.

 

[the sniper]

Surely it's best to just consider 'M' as straddling the A and B ends. If you've got A and B, you've got the whole thing? It's not its own platform defined by signals. Though admittedly I've maybe failed to appreciate the nature of the "completionist" mindset.

If you were to try and get stuff booked to be 'M', unless it's coming in on top of something (the late night terminating/stabling, early morning departures would be best for predictability), you're wholly reliant on the member of platform staff to come out with their lamp and stop the train in the nominal 'M' position, which doesn't always happen. 'M' would also be something of a moving target, thus making it rather meaningless to 'tick off'? Not that they aren't worth noting for novelty, I suppose.

 

[All platforms]

Yes, I got the impression the "M position" was a bit of a moving target and whilst the very nature of a completionist is to do what is necessary at times, i may have to be a bit more pragmatic (or a lot more patient) in this. I will tick off what i can - and everything else in the West Midlands Day Ranger area whilst doing so and see what i am left with. Difficult to assess how well RTT predictions and actuals match as the actual always shows as just the base platform number. Lots more time at New Street upcoming i think.

Lots to think about - thanks for the clarification

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti West Coast Pendolino services straddle both as they don't fit in half, though that will only give you a couple of platforms.

 

[Tempest Malice]

My partial understanding is that the platform number without suffix is used in the timetable for trains which take all (or near enough all) of both halves such as the pendolinos. Whereas the M suffix implies a shorter train stopping in roughly centre straddling the signals rather than at either end (in previous timetables this would often be done by the cross city services for example, (but I haven't been recently to see if that is still the case, also I don't remember ever having seen any other do once again that may just be my limited observations at play there) perhaps as they have a shorter stop time so no need to worry about moving up one end to free up the other for another service.) RTT and equally Open train times will both show things as booked in the timetable until they happen, and are not likely to say much different to the simplifiers the dispatchers have I would imagine, but as you have already identified, on the day changes can and will happen without such systems being informed.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think that part of the problem in understanding this is the misnomer that the middle signals divide the platforms into two roughly equal parts. Certain platforms, such as 10, are very much unequal, with A being much shorter than B. Therefore a train on 10B would appear to be in the middle of the platform if standing at the middle signal.

I’m unsure quite why M is indicated in certain apps, but it exists in the station working books for the platform staff (which are electronic so you will have trouble getting a copy and are subject to alterations from the TOC controllers) so that they know which trains need to be stopped short of the platform end signals in order to leave space for another train coming in from the other direction. It doesn’t necessarily mean that a train at the M position straddles both A and B though, as it may simply mean that the train only goes far enough past the middle signal that it’s rear is clear of it rather than going all the way to the platform end signal. I would suggest that trains that require the entire platform length (e.g. Pendolini and double Voyagers) are not standing at the M position but rather are standing at the platform end signal and simply occupying the whole length of the platform.

It doesn’t appear on any signage because, well, frankly passengers seem to struggle enough as it is (“This is 8A, so where’s platform 8?”) and adding another suffix would just make things even worse.

**EDIT**

It’s probably also worth pointing out that the M position is not actually a different or specific location compared to normal stopping points. A train arriving onto, say, 8B from the Gloucester direction will be in exactly the same place on the platform as a train arriving at 8M from the Derby direction.

 

[biggyn]

Hi all, your friendly BHM train dispatcher here!

O L Leigh has described everything better than I could word it and is bang on. The M suffix is basically something used in our “A&D” book to describe a move where the signaller will pull the middle signal off to allow a train to straddle both the A & B ends. Often we will stop it so it only just over the middle, depending on which platform it is (platform 10 being a prime example, where the wiring circuitry of the signalling requires the front cab of a train arriving from the A end to have passed both middle signals {which are currently several metres apart to allow signal access to number 3 through siding} before a train can arrive on the B end), but it is relative to whatever moves require it.

I’m not entirely sure why certain apps show the M suffix, as it always shows on our screens as just the platform number if the train is across both A & B ends. There is also the ability to override this within the station should the need arise.

There are occasions where a train is booked to go across the middle of a platform, but due to short formations of stock, can often end up on just one end, which could potentially cause a headache if you wanted to be a completist to the level of the OP.

I hope that helps answer your question.

 

[JN114]

Most apps/sites just take the open data verbatim

The schedules are for platform xM - and open data just repeats that. It doesn’t apply some of the more common sense adjustments that the true industry, public-facing systems might.

 

[All platforms]

Well... i did ask didn't I? Some really good explanations and info inputted here, and a big thanks to those taking the time to do this. Armed with this knowledge i shall have a good talk with myself querying the mad scheme to do all the platforms each station has to offer and of which BHM is just 1 example out of 2573 (currently).

Criteria set was it has to be timetabled at least once a week in RTT (yes that's very arbitrary) but then there are the ones only used during engineering works, or to allow a passing express (P1 at Acton Bridge) or to stop short of the original destination (P2 at Penrith and many more). Where to stop??

It is fascinating to see just how many anomalies and one off's abound on this subject and it keeps my interest very much engaged.

As for BHM, i will for certain try and complete the non M variants - and as there are enough M's nominally timetabled i will venture down this road too and see what is possible. If any dispatcher sees a mad old fool asking "is this an M platform" in the next few weeks take pity....

 

[O L Leigh]

You're very welcome. Best of luck with your quest, but I wouldn't get too hung up on the M platforms. It could be a short road to intense frustration otherwise.

 

[XAM2175]

In all honesty, to me this seems only a wafer-thin step away from trying to complete platforms that don't actually exist

 

[biggyn]

There’s one platform at New Street you definitely won’t be able to complete, seeing as it has recently been disconnected and is currently being filled in with frame work for signalling-related apparatus in preparation for the switch over to the new signalling system next year!

Saying that, I believe it’s been a good few years since anything ran into the old East Dock anyway, but still…

 

[D6975]

Last year (or poss 2019) I caught a train from Rugely to N St which stopped in the middle of the platform (3 IIRC) . The London end had a 350 sitting there and the 2 coupled up before proceeding to Euston. Would this service have been a 'M' train?

 

[JN114]

Last year (or poss 2019) I caught a train from Rugely to N St which stopped in the middle of the platform (3 IIRC) . The London end had a 350 sitting there and the 2 coupled up before proceeding to Euston. Would this service have been a 'M' train?

Maybe, maybe not.

It’s not really a separate platform, it’s just a directional aid to operations staff to help manage the platforms better. The move you experienced may have been planned in, this would likely have been scheduled as Platform -M, or ad-hoc replatformed there and directed to stop there by signaller/platform staff.

Similarly for example there are platforms at York (and others) that, at a timetable planning stage may be suffixed -X; which only denote to the signaller that they will need to use an alternative signalling overlap beyond the platform starting signal. It has zero material effect on the positioning of the train; and would thus be virtually undetectable from the ground.

I’d put all of these “virtual” platforms into the same bucket - one is not going to be able to reliably determine whether or not they have been used, and attempts to “collect” them would thus be folly and unverifiable.

 

[pdeaves]

I’d put all of these “virtual” platforms into the same bucket - one is not going to be able to reliably determine whether or not they have been used, and attempts to “collect” them would thus be folly and unverifiable.

I suppose the best compromise would be use A end, use B end and use 'something that filled the whole platform' (end you get on/off in the middle). But then, I'm not into 'collecting' platforms!

 

[All platforms]

It’s not really a separate platform, it’s just a directional aid to operations staff to help manage the platforms better.

When i started this thread it really was from a position of "what is this?" and under the naiive assumption it was a tenuous thing that could be established and ticked off, if i could only understand how it worked.

Well, i have a much better idea now thanks to all that has been written and, as quoted by JN114 it is essentially a directional aid and not an actual platform. Yes it would be folly to include virtual platforms that are unverifiable so i have removed them from my official list so to speak.

They are a curiosity and as such i will probably spend an evening or two riding in and out of BHM over the next few months to/from "M" platforms to see this phenomenon in action. Just for giggles mind...

Sandwiched trains on one platform for example at the start/end of day could only be M variants?? or is this another rabbit hole to avoid?