Birkenhead -> North Wales routing

[Green Lane]

Hi again all, I haven't posted for a long time.

I was tentatively looking at some return journeys for next month from Birkenhead to various destinations on or via the North Wales Coast Line.

I live roughly equidistant between Birkenhead Central and Green Lane on the Wirral Line (three quarters of a mile from each). I also live two and a half miles from Upton (Merseyside) on the Borderlands line. As such, I quite regularly use all three of those stations.

Now, on the London Midland website (for example) if I put in "Upton (Merseyside)" to "Llandudno Junction" or "Upton (Merseyside)" to "Betws-y-Coed" (for lets say Tuesday 31st May purely as an example), as expected I get results which suggest changing at Shotton. This is of course very sensible.

So that's fine. Although, I've noticed that the trains on the Borderlands line have a habit of running around five minutes late. For example, the 07:32 from Upton to Wrexham Central actually arrived at 07:37 last week, even though it had only originated at Bidston, one stop away. So a 9 minute changeover at Shotton on the timetable can sometimes be a 4 minute changeover in reality. With the platform arrangement at Shotton being as it is, that's cutting it pretty close even if you run across the high-level tracks at the designated crossing point. Once or twice in the past, I've only just caught the Llandudno train with a few seconds to spare.

So, I thought I'd check out some options via Chester as an alternative, as the changeover generally isn't quite as tight going that way.

On putting in "Birkenhead Central" to "Llandudno Junction" or "Green Lane" to "Llandudno Junction" (just as examples), the London Midland site still routes me via Birkenhead Hamilton Square -> Bidston -> Shotton (3 changes) instead of the merely 1 change which would be required via Chester.

I thought this would give me options of going via Chester? I'm not sure why it doesn't.

If I put in "via Chester" it displays "no fares found for that route".

So my questions are (1) can any of the TOC sites show trains for the above Birkenhead stations to the North Wales Coast Line that go via Chester? I haven't tried any other TOC site yet. (2) Are the tickets from the above Birkenhead stations to the North Wales coast line simply valid via Chester anyway?

Thanks for any possible info.

 

[Welshman]

The EC website recommends travelling from Birkenhead to Llandudno via Chester.
It gives fares for that journey of £17.60p single and £19.90p off-peak return.

I haven't struggled with the routing guide [leave that to the experts like Yorkie!], but if your site shows the same fares via Shotton, then I would presume the routes are interchangeable.

 

[Green Lane]

The EC website recommends travelling from Birkenhead to Llandudno via Chester.
It gives fares for that journey of £17.60p single and £19.90p off-peak return.

I haven't struggled with the routing guide [leave that to the experts like Yorkie!], but if your site shows the same fares via Shotton, then I would presume the routes are interchangeable.

Thank you Welshman for taking the time to check it out. That effectively answers my question. Yes, I'm getting the same fares you mention. I'm just currently stuck in the habit of using the LM website, due to recent journeys to Birmingham and London!

Can't understand why the LM site is only listing trains via Bidston though. Perhaps I've inadvertently changed some setting somewhere. In any case, I will check out the EC site, but as you say if the fares are the same then the routes should be interchangeable. (As I suspected).

Cheers!

 

[First class]

Birkenhead Central - Llandudno Jn would be valid via:

Hooton>Chester>Shotton>Llandudno Jn
Hamilton Sq>Bidston>Shotton>Llandudno Jn

you could also **probably** get away with

Hooton>Ellesmere Port>Helsby>Chester>Shotton>Llandudno Jn

(but that is a very very rough guess on the 3-mile rule).

Just bear in mind break of journey is not permitted on the outward portion of Off Peak Return.

HOWEVER

Buying a Liverpool-Llandudno Jn ticket (at the same price!) would be also valid via:

Warrington (e.g. Liverpool-Warrington BQ-Runcorn East-Helsby-Chester-Shotton-Llandudno)
Runcorn (Main) (e.g. Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Chester-Shotton-Llandudno) - but no current service operates Runcorn-Chester via Halton Curve.

 

[bb21]

According to NRT, the distances are:

Birkenhead Central - Chester - Shotton - Llandudno Junction: 59.75 miles
Birkenhead Central - Hamilton Square - Bidston - Shotton - Llandudno Junction: 54 miles

So the 3-mile rule doesn't apply here.

Green Lane is no good either in this respect. The nearest origin station where the 3-mile rule kicks in is Rock Ferry, where the Chester route is 58.25 miles and the Bidston route is 55.5 miles.

 

[Green Lane]

Thanks both for the further informative replies!

Rock Ferry station is also in easy walking distance from where I live. However, because of my work, I also hold an annual Merseytravel "TRIO" ticket which covers me for Merseytravel zones B1 & C1.

On the Wirral side of the river, this covers me for Bidston & Upton on the Borderlands line and also as far south as Spital on the Wirral Line.

So I certainly have a few options and don't have to buy tickets which originate at Birkenhead or Green Lane for myself, it just struck me as an example where I couldn't see why the Chester route was being made available.

The mileages quoted above seem to answer why that was the case.

Having said that I do occasionally travel with my brother who does not hold any season ticket and so it is also useful to know about tickets originating from those stations too.

Regards!

 

[bb21]

It would appear that fares from one stop further down the line - Bebington - are cheaper and the 3-mile rule still applies to allow you to go either way.

For the same fare as from Rock Ferry, if you buy from Liverpool Stations, you can also benefit from the availability of CDR's and also being allowed to go either way.

 

[tony_mac]

As far as I can see, it is valid via Chester from any Station on the Chester branch of the Wirral line, you don't need to mess about with other tickets.
Hooton is an appropriate routeing point, and journeys via Hooton (obviously!) may pass through Chester.

I don't know why East coast / London Midland is not allowing it.

It is cheaper from Bebington, and therefore between Spital and Hooton, you have to go via Hooton, as Liverpool is not an appropriate routeing point. (From Bebington and Port Sunlight, both routes are within 3 miles of the shortest route - according to railmiles, taking the distance to Shotton)

On the other branches of the Wirral Line (after Conway Park), Shotton is a shared routeing point, and hence they are only valid via the Shortest route.

 

[Statto]

I've done this journey a few times as well but mainly via Chester, i also done Leasowe-Wrexham last year going out via the Borderlines route & returning via Chester.

As long as your ticket says "Any Permitted Route"you can go via Chester, or catch the Borderlines to Shotton

 

[bb21]

...(From Bebington and Port Sunlight, both routes are within 3 miles of the shortest route - according to railmiles, taking the distance to Shotton)...

So does NRT.

Spital is included as well.

 

[tony_mac]

As long as your ticket says "Any Permitted Route"you can go via Chester, or catch the Borderlines to Shotton

Although that is not what the routeing guide says, (it does not permit Leasowe to Shotton via Chester) National Rail (reasonably!) does allow via Chester from any of the Wirral -line stations, so I can't imagine any problems.

 

[OwlMan]

HOWEVER

Buying a Liverpool-Llandudno Jn ticket (at the same price!) would be also valid via:

Warrington (e.g. Liverpool-Warrington BQ-Runcorn East-Helsby-Chester-Shotton-Llandudno)
Runcorn (Main) (e.g. Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Chester-Shotton-Llandudno) - but no current service operates Runcorn-Chester via Halton Curve.

Not according to the routeing guide - The only valid routes from Liverpool - Shotton are CH or ME which only allow direct to Shotton or Chester

Peter

 

[Green Lane]

Thanks yet again to all above, for taking the time to look into this further. Much appreciated!

I have a neighbour who regularly travels to Llandudno and always goes via Chester, never via Bidston.

He'd showed me his tickets and they were always "Birkenhead Central" to "LLandudno".

Since he's never reported any problems going via Chester, I strongly suspected it was OK. I can't pretend to understand the complexities of the rules regarding valid routes etc.. but I'm just glad to read that the consensus on here is that it is OK to travel via either route. As mentioned the only thing left unexplained was the failure of the LM site to show trains going through Chester when entering this journey on their site.

It's always good to have all available options open though.

One of the hiking trips I'm planning involves going to Roman Bridge on the Conwy Valley line. I've not traveled on that line for about twelve years, so very much looking forward to going on it again.