Bike couriers using rail services

[theageofthetra]

Whilst driving I have noticed a marked increase in the last few months of the sort of bicycle delivery companies common in London (Deliveroo etc) using rail services. For those not familiar with these companies they use a conventional bike with a large black box on the back to take the delivery. Bikes on packed London commuter trains are their own issue, let alone ones with a large box on the back along with dispatch being delayed whilst some idiot owner rides the length of the platform!

I was wondering if there was some ancient bit of rail regulation that covers the use of passenger services by what are in effect commercial delivery services and what they are allowed to convey?

 

[Deepgreen]

Most peak time, peak direction trains are banned to non-folding bikes, but I have never seen it enforced, even when platform staff are adjacent to the boarding bike, as I have witnessed very often! Yet another case of the non-enforcement of rules which is proliferating wildly these days. Always too much trouble or someone else's problem, it would seem.

 

[Lockwood]

I've been denied boarding with a work bike in the past and asked to get the next one due to the large pannier on the back and the amount of people on the service I wanted.

Only happened once (and I did tend to avoid using trains with that bike as much as possible)

Edit: Not a courier bike, but there are staff who will not permit bikes on trains.

 

[Sprinter153]

Most peak time, peak direction trains are banned to non-folding bikes, but I have never seen it enforced, even when platform staff are adjacent to the boarding bike, as I have witnessed very often! Yet another case of the non-enforcement of rules which is proliferating wildly these days. Always too much trouble or someone else's problem, it would seem.

If you could do better, as you appear to think, you're more than welcome to come on one of my trains and tell a cyclist they can't bring their bicycle on. I dont think you'd have much luck.

They're a vociferous, and sometimes rather vicious bunch, and they're more likely than not to just shove it on anyway and refuse to move, or give you an ear-bashing about 'discretion' or something unpublishable containing the word 'jobsworth'.

I try, and so do a lot of my colleagues, but there's only so much you can do without a) delaying trains and b) getting assaulted. Both of these result in management meetings and the blame being turned resolutely on you.

Of course, to the armchair experts, this means staff are lazy or want to pass the buck. :roll:

 

[Deepgreen]

The rules are set out by each TOC and usually ban non-folding bikes from London-bound morning peak trains and vice-versa in the evening (only looking here at London area TOCs, I know). However, as a cyclist myself (but not by train much these days, and never by train as a work mode), I can understand that it must be a pain if you have a bike failure of some kind and face a potential three hour wait before you can get it to work/home!

Of course, this doesn't cover couriers. To be cynical, as a Southern user, I'd assume it would be a quicker delivery by bike!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you could do better, as you appear to think, you're more than welcome to come on one of my trains and tell a cyclist they can't bring their bicycle on. I dont think you'd have much luck.

They're a vociferous, and sometimes rather vicious bunch, and they're more likely than not to just shove it on anyway and refuse to move, or give you an ear-bashing about 'discretion' or something unpublishable containing the word 'jobsworth'.

I try, and so do a lot of my colleagues, but there's only so much you can do without a) delaying trains and b) getting assaulted. Both of these result in management meetings and the blame being turned resolutely on you.

Of course, to the armchair experts, this means staff are lazy or want to pass the buck. :roll:

Not aimed at train-borne staff, for whom the enforcement is very hard without delaying the train, but I've seen so many platform staff simply ignore bikes being taken onto peak time trains immediately next to where they are standing, and not by "vicious" individuals either, but by young women, etc.

 

[The Ham]

Not aimed at train-borne staff, for whom the enforcement is very hard without delaying the train, but I've seen so many platform staff simply ignore bikes being taken onto peak time trains immediately next to where they are standing, and not by "vicious" individuals either, but by young women, etc.

I semi regularly observe people waiting on platforms (where trains are subject to a cycle ban) down well away from where station staff normally are present. This is on a station where they will have had to enter through a manned gate (although they could have come off a connecting train).

The problem is that without the peak hour ban being universal (which then puts some of the outer rural stations at a disadvantage), or requiring cycles to be booked onto specific contra peak flow services; then it is going to be difficult to enforce.

Maybe a high profile clampdown by the BTP could help for a time, but there are always going to be people that chance it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is taking a bicycle onto a train when prohibited a Byelaw offence? If so, would some prosecutions help? I never heard of one.

 

[theageofthetra]

I must admit I hadn't considered that the bike courier may have had a 'mechanical'- to use the TDF parlance. My interest in the regs was more to do with that surrounding commercial goods carriers using passenger services rather than the bike itself. I know its an extreme example but what prevents a courier or delivery firm delivering a large TV, Microwave etc in this way?

If Sadiq Khans expanded emmissions zones come in it will force off the roads many older vehicles used by part time couriers and I think we will see more of this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is taking a bicycle onto a train when prohibited a Byelaw offence? If so, would some prosecutions help? I never heard of one.

Prosecuted for taking a bike onto a train - progressive Britain speaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit I hadn't considered that the bike courier may have had a 'mechanical'- to use the TDF parlance. My interest in the regs was more to do with that surrounding commercial goods carriers using passenger services rather than the bike itself. I know its an extreme example but what prevents a courier or delivery firm delivering a large TV, Microwave etc in this way?

Not a lot, and why should it if they pay the fare?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ComUtoR]

Prosecuted for taking a bike onto a train - progressive Britain speaks.

So one poster is moaning about bylaws not being enforced by staff and another suggesting prosecution for breaking the bylaws.

Are you suggesting a free for all ? Why have a bylaw if its both not enforced and when it is your not penalised ? Isn't it then totally pointless ?

Makes you wonder why nobody takes a blind bit of notice.

 

[AlterEgo]

So one poster is moaning about bylaws not being enforced by staff and another suggesting prosecution for breaking the bylaws.

Are you suggesting a free for all ? Why have a bylaw if its both not enforced and when it is your not penalised ? Isn't it then totally pointless ?

Makes you wonder why nobody takes a blind bit of notice.

Being prosecuted for taking a bike on a train is ridiculous...for Christ's sake. The majority of the railway byelaws should be abolished, in my view.

There are many things in life which are ill-mannered, bad behaviour or just plain discourteous, but they shouldn't all be illegal. Taking a loaded, panniered bike on a train falls neatly in that category.

 

[Clip]

Being prosecuted for taking a bike on a train is ridiculous...for Christ's sake. The majority of the railway byelaws should be abolished, in my view.

There are many things in life which are ill-mannered, bad behaviour or just plain discourteous, but they shouldn't all be illegal. Taking a loaded, panniered bike on a train falls neatly in that category.

You are kind of missing the point that this would be a cycle being used for commercial usage and not personal use.

 

[furnessvale]

Being prosecuted for taking a bike on a train is ridiculous...for Christ's sake. The majority of the railway byelaws should be abolished, in my view.

There are many things in life which are ill-mannered, bad behaviour or just plain discourteous, but they shouldn't all be illegal. Taking a loaded, panniered bike on a train falls neatly in that category.

10 people taking loaded panniered bikes onto the same rush hour train could be a bit of a nuisance however.

I was once on a Merseyrail electric where a whole cycling club boarded. Fortunately it was not in the rush hour but the train was reasonably busy, making boarding and alighting for other passengers quite difficult.

 

[al78]

If you could do better, as you appear to think, you're more than welcome to come on one of my trains and tell a cyclist they can't bring their bicycle on. I dont think you'd have much luck.

They're a vociferous, and sometimes rather vicious bunch, and they're more likely than not to just shove it on anyway and refuse to move, or give you an ear-bashing about 'discretion' or something unpublishable containing the word 'jobsworth'.

I try, and so do a lot of my colleagues, but there's only so much you can do without a) delaying trains and b) getting assaulted. Both of these result in management meetings and the blame being turned resolutely on you.

Of course, to the armchair experts, this means staff are lazy or want to pass the buck. :roll:

I doubt ALL cyclists behave like this (spare us the sweeping generalisations please :roll, there are idiots in all walks of life. A particular mode of transport does not define someones behaviour. I have been refused boarding a train because the cycle space was rammed full, I accepted it and didn't throw a strop, even though it meant I had to cycle 36 miles on top of the 36 miles I had already cycled, I just accepted it was my fault for not booking a cycle space.

 

[Taunton]

The rules are set out by each TOC and usually ban non-folding bikes from London-bound morning peak trains and vice-versa in the evening

This sort of approach is from a past generation, nowadays "off peak" services can be just as crowded as peak once was, especially as part of TOC determination to use minimum formations as soon as the peak has gone. London Bridge to East Croydon against the peak at 0830 on a weekday with a 2-car set, the rest of the incoming having been sent off to the sidings, or passengers unable to board a 4-car Thameslink at 1030 on a Saturday morning because it's like the Central Line inside.

 

[theageofthetra]

Just to repeat again its not about the bike its the carrying of commercial goods on a passenger train. There must be some rule on this. Also I'm not having a go a cyclists or some young kid trying to earn a crust as a courier- the only issue I find adult cyclists cause me as a driver (kids, are well kids & a separate debate) are the amount of them who cycle along a platform delaying my dispatch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to repeat again its not about the bike its the carrying of commercial goods on a train. There must be some rule on this.

Why should there need to be one? Pay your fare, you can carry the amount of luggage specified in the NRCoC.

There isn't a different rate charged for business use (other than the peak-off peak distinction).

 

[theageofthetra]

So where is the line drawn then? Yeh lets transport a fridge! When the ultra low emissions zone is forced on everything including and within the North & South Circulars I think we will see more and more of this on already crush loaded trains. Also what are the rules if couriers are using Student/JSA or other railcards?

 

[ainsworth74]

So where is the line drawn then? Yeh lets transport a fridge!

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are very clear on the matter:

47. Accompanied luggage, articles and animals

You may take a single item of hand luggage that must be capable of being held in your lap if required, plus up to 2 items of luggage each not exceeding 30 x 70 x 90 cm in size. Unless you are disabled or have reduced mobility and have made arrangements in advance for assistance, you should be able to manage your luggage without additional help. Luggage is carried subject to sufficient space being available in the train service you wish to use.

As long as the item does not exceed those dimensions and our courier can manage the item without additional help and there is sufficient space on the train then they can bring it.

Also what are the rules if couriers are using Student/JSA or other railcards?

Does it matter? Users of a railcard are entitled to the same luggage allowance as anyone else.

 

[AndyNLondon]

The conditions of carriage set limits for the size of items of luggage, so as long as those rules are complied with, what's the problem? I.e. if the fridge is a size that's allowed as luggage and the passenger can move it safely, why should their reason for carrying a fridge around as luggage matter to the railway?

 

[edwin_m]

Does it matter? Users of a railcard are entitled to the same luggage allowance as anyone else.

If users of a JSA railcard are being paid to transport something, does that make them benefit fraudsters?

 

[Bookd]

If there is a demand for carrying large commercial goods then maybe provision should be made; there could be a specified area - it could be called a guard's van - and it could also take a number of cycles. It would of course mean rebuilding all of the trains.........

 

[AlterEgo]

You are kind of missing the point that this would be a cycle being used for commercial usage and not personal use.

Sure, prosecute the Deliveroo cyclist, on a zero-hour contract.

Or, perhaps, if it's a problem (and I have seen Deliveroo on SWT!), the railway companies could engage constructively with Deliveroo, or similar companies, and nicely ask them to ensure staff don't use the train. It's called stakeholder engagement.

Other things which are a criminal offence on the railway:

1) Not queueing
2) Singing (but only if it annoys people)
3) Walk down an up escalator for the lols
4) Getting on a train while someone is getting off
5) Loiter (photters beware)
6) Sitting in a reserved seat that's not yours

...and so on.



As people will rightly point out, prosecutions for those things above are as rare as hen's teeth - and rightly so.

My point is that the solution to the problem of cycles on trains isn't to just prosecute Deliveroo drivers (let's hope none of you work in PR or brand management!), but to do something softer and perhaps more sensible.

 

[Firesprite]

If users of a JSA railcard are being paid to transport something, does that make them benefit fraudsters?

No if they have declared earnings in a claim or have started a job and signed off the card is still vaild until the end date. The 1st month in a new job is the toughest if you have rail travel costs i.e A March to Cambridge (30miles) Season monthy ticket is £252 nearly the same as a months JSA.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Wasn't there a legal case many years ago in which British Rail successfully prevented a courier firm from putting its vans on Motorail services? I very dimly remember seeing it in Modern Railways or similar in the 1970s. Would the same ruling apply to courier pushbikes on trains?

 

[AlterEgo]

Wasn't there a legal case many years ago in which British Rail successfully prevented a courier firm from putting its vans on Motorail services? I very dimly remember seeing it in Modern Railways or similar in the 1970s. Would the same ruling apply to courier pushbikes on trains?

Found this: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11075479

Haven't read it though! It isn't digitised.

 

[ainsworth74]

If users of a JSA railcard are being paid to transport something, does that make them benefit fraudsters?

Depends on how many hours per week they are working and what they are earning. As long as they declare that information then they are not fraudulently claiming as the DWP will be able to work out a) if they are still entitled and b) if they are how much they should be paid for that week.

If they do not declare that they are doing that work then they would be fraudulently claiming.

 

[telstarbox]

Deliveroo only deliver within 2km of the restaurant, so a courier on a train is probably travelling to/from the shift rather than using the train for deliveries.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Found this: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11075479

Haven't read it though! It isn't digitised.

Yes, here is a press report on it, from Commercial Motor, November 1982.


Freight News

On and off the rails

A PARCELS CARRIER banned from using British Rail's Motorail service because he was seen as an unhealthy source of competition, has since been approached by Freightliner, another BR subsidiary, to carry on his business as usual. TIM COBB reports.

Although he is still using the same overall company (British Rail), and now has an increased turnover, he has taken Motorail to the Office of Fair Trading, believing he was victimised.
Edward Lacoste, who runs Overnight Bag Enterprises, started his parcels business two years ago, taking parcels from London to Edinburgh in vans on the Motorail service. These vans were then collected at either end and their contents distributed.

http://commercial-motor.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/6th-november-1982/8/freight-news

BR said that Mr Lacoste was using Motorail as a cheaper means than sending the parcels by its own Red Star service.

A spokesman for BR told CM that he was operating illegally by transporting goods in the vans. He was only paying for the transport of his vans, and not their contents.

Motorail, he explained, only carries vans when it has sufficient capacity for them, and only then when they have personal goods carried in them, and not goods for hire or reward.

On the other hand, BR is happy to carry the goods by Freightliner, as it is a tailor-made service for the carriage of hire or reward traffic. He said there is no conflict between accepting goods by one BR subsidiary and not by another.

Mr Lacoste's view of the situation is different. He feels he is operating within the law by transporting the parcels in vans on the Motorail service. "Other companies do it so why couldn't IT' Motorail has a small revenue and so needs as much business as possible, he said. "But the parcels division felt I was competing against it and so threw me out."

A spokesman for Freightliner would not comment on the situation, but agreed it was "sensitive." He told CM: "As part of BR we cannot be seen to comment on another BR subsidiary."

However, he did admit that it was Freightliner who had made the first move in getting Mr Lacoste to use it. "We noticed that he was not using Motorail any more and we got in touch with and offered him our services."

The deal that was arranged was beneficial to both parties. Overnight Bag Enterprises collects enough parcels to fill 20ft containers, which Freightliner supplies free of charge.