Biggest Architectural loss to the railways?

[Waverley125]

It's fair to say there have been several beautiful railway buildings knocked down over the years, mostly in the 60s as 'modernism' did away with anything remotely victorian. What would you say were the biggest losses to our railways? I know Euston, New Street, Nottingham Victoria etc. will be mentioned, but here's my view:

1)Leeds New station. I've seen the photos, a station very similar to newcastle, done away for an ugly monstrosity in 1967. The 'new' city station is fantastic, but the loss of the old one was a real blow. Two vaulting trainsheds and an art deco concourse. Makes me want to invent a time machine just to go back and nobble the people who decided to demolish it.

2)Bradford Exchange. Deemed 'too big'. No comparison between Exchange in its heyday and Interchange today. Another fantastic gateway to West Yorkshire lost.

 

[WillPS]

Nottingham Victoria is certainly a great loss. I can kind of understand the reasoning though, Nottingham is not really a 'rail hub' like, say Crewe or Birmingham - and Victoria Station did have a crippling bottle neck at one end, but still it was beautiful and it has been replaced by a monstrosity.

People arriving to Nottingham by train or coach (or just passing through in the case of the latter) really dont get a good view of the city; Broadmarsh is a total eyesore - a literal brick wall before arriving in to a city is not a great start

 

[christianspence]

Manchester Victoria, too, in its hey-day was a wonderful structure. It was light, airy, busy and had a characteristic feel to it. Today, however, it is an emasculated version of its former self. So much of the original architectural features are there, that something wonderful could be done with it, but I'm afraid that Metrolink and the architecturally abysmal MEN Arena have removed much of the elegance of the old place.

 

[matchmaker]

Glasgow St Enochs. Wonderful trainshed and lovely Victorian hotel.

 

[jonhewes]

In addition to Nottingham Victoria already mentioned in this thread, I'd also say the demolition of the viaducts and civil engineering features of the line as it passed throuh Nottingham were also a great tragedy .

The sight of a train erupting out of Weekday Cross Tunnel (entrance was in tact and visible until 18 months ago) and then travelling over the brick viaducts across Nottingham must have been a stunning sight.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about - please see http://www.gcrleicester.info/html/nottingham.html

Having lived in Nottingham between 2002 and 2006, I took the opportunity to do some exploring to try and find signs of the old GCR. Unfortunately very little of it is still evident

 

[merlodlliw]

I recall Blaclpool Central, a huge station with 14 platforms, used by hundreds of thousands every Saturday, also Manchester Exchange with its platform 11 connecting it with Victoria next door, I think this was the longest platform in the UK, all North Wales trains started at Exchange with many splitting at
Llan Junc, for Llandudno & Holyhead.

remember the 4.30p.m. Club train from Exchange taking a mere 90 minutes to get to Rhyl, circa 1950s & 60s, this was of course steam.( known as the Manchester Club to from Llandudno) the history ended when it was replaced with ex, trans Pennine DMUs, awful things to what was a real train.

sorry I slightly go off off the subject

 

[45378]

Places I'd have loved to have seen.......

Euston - Arch and Great Hall
Glasgow St Enoch
Edinburgh Princes Street - v hazy memories as a 7 yr old in 1958!
Holyhead - train to ship in style
Buxton - when both the LNW and Midland stations were in place

Places I did see and miss nowadays.....

Manchester Victoria - a bit chaotic post Luftwaffe - but distinctive
Manchester Central
Liverpool Central (High Level)
Blackburn - two huge islands and a double train shed


Rgds

45378

 

[schmoo_smith]

Sunderland used to have a fantastic station from the pics i have seen and also what my nana told me about it, now look at it!!

 

[Daimler]

I'm going to say Euston - I've seen photos, and, disorganised and cramped though it may have been, the atmosphere looked fabulous. To arrive, walk through the great hall and out through the Doric Arch (preferably having just got off the sleeper from Perth behind a 'Duchess') must have been amazing. I'd have loved to have seen Manchester Victoria & Glasgow St. Enoch stations too though.

On a slightly different note, I think the crimes that were commited at Euston, Manchester Victoria, and the other high-profile casualties were repeated countless times all over Britain - I can't go to a '60s built station without thinking to myself 'why, why, why?' It's all so ghastly - and for what gain. At Hemel station, for example, the 40-or-so year old buildings seem completely life-expired - to the extent that we're having new canopies on all the platforms. To drive 3 miles up the road to Berkhamsted is to experience something totally different - the station is no larger, but feels instantly so much more pleasant. And this experience is repeated all over the country. Whatever happened to architects and civic planners in the '60s & '70s?

 

[fgwrich]

Euston is a definate... Also, what about Fenchurch Street? Or Charing Cross...

speaking of London Euston.. i read that the Euston Project... to rebuild Euston station has hit the ice and now wont be started until 'Well After 2012'...

Also, what about New Street and Moor Street...Thank god that Chiltern have restored Moor Street but its still a loss that its not currently connected to National Rail...

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Re Small stations, there used to be 2 nice buildings on each platform at Stonehouse, which were quite old and were both listed. BR, for no particularly clear reason had the listing revoked, demolished them, then replaced them with some functional, but not particularly pleasing breeze block constructed shelters. This happened as late as 1975!

On the positive side they did leave the GWR marked footbridge. Which im sure they will rip down when they realise it cant take wheelchairs.:roll:

Swindon used to be quite a nice looking station, what happened to the other platform? I know there was a fire, but I thought they had rebuilt it. The awful looking BR era building doesnt exactly enhance things either.

 

[asylumxl]

London Euston, London St Pancras, London Kings Cross, London Waterloo etc. Basically any station that has been turned into a shopping centre, or is going to be.

 

[jas_sl]

I've spent a lot of time recently reading up on Euston Arch, the St Pancras redevelopment and the Bishopsgate Goods Yard.

I find St Pancras simply stunning - it took my breath away when I first walked in. It's by that same token I find the other losses even more upsetting as with a little vision you can take an existing structure and make it modern and efficient.

Everyone hates Euston although it's hard to see how they could have reorganized the station with the Arch and Great Hall where it was (right in the middle of the complex) - but since they know the remnants of the Euston Arch have been located in an east London canal (http://www.eustonarch.org/gallery.html) maybe they can bring back some life when they redevelop it.

I also like the new ideas at Kings Cross where removing the ugly facade and having the waiting area and departure boards outside but under a covered area - again, simply use of space, natural light and the existing old structures.

Only last night I was reading up on the battle to save Bishopsgate Goods yard from demolition where the new Shoreditch station is being built - although the Braithwaite viaduct and outwalls are to be kept, some interesting suggestions from English Heritage (http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/bishopsgate.pdf?1238416155) could have meant the old being rekindled into the new rather than being flattened for more offices. I don't know what they've got planned there but I feel maybe they could have pulled off another St Pancras success story there instead of a missed opportunity.

 

[asylumxl]

I may get flamed for this... but...

I'm an Architecture student, and while I like the architecture of St Pancras, I still think it's a shame to turn the main concourse area into a Shopping Mall.

Also, why do the Eurostar arrivals come straight on to the main concourse area? That seems like bad planning to me. You end up with a crowd gathering in the concourse area every time a train arrives, which disrupts flow through the main concourse, particularly to the Underground station.

The escalators are offset from the centre of the roof structure. Symmetry is usually considered more aesthetically pleasing. But that's probably my personal preference.

Yes, it's great architecture, but it could have been even better in my opinion. It's all these minor things which I dislike.

 

[daccer]

it is a fact that basically everything constructed during the 60's and 70's is firstly ugly as sin and secondly not fit for use due to the parsimonious nature of railway investment under BR and the pessimistic forecasts for future use. This led to too small stations being built at the cheapest cost.

Whilst it is right to pine for the lost gems it is also right to appreciate that a building must fulfil a purpose and that it does take skill, time and money to revitalise an old building so that it can be fit for modern day demands. St Pancras is as good an example of any of how to combine the two. The new Kings Cross will I think take the combination of old and new to another level.

The question now is will the mistakes of early BR days be allowed to be repeated. Stations from that era are starting to be redeveloped and it is important we learn the mistakes. How many actually lovely stations are ruined by smacking in a concrete monstrosity on the platforms. Crewe especially springs to mind - it could be very smartly done up and de cluttered with some thought. similar to the plan at Waverley

The new awareness of our heritage leads me to think that the days of smashing up our railway history is coming to an end. We mourn the losses but must ensure their demise was not in vain. We still retain a network rich in history and diversity. If we can add some modern and advanced designs to the mix and lose the thirty or forty large abominations that ruin the network then we can be proud again. Two words for everything that was wrong about our previous policies.....Wakefield Kirkgate. Never again!!

 

[Daimler]

I may get flamed for this... but...

I'm an Architecture student, and while I like the architecture of St Pancras, I still think it's a shame to turn the main concourse area into a Shopping Mall.

Also, why do the Eurostar arrivals come straight on to the main concourse area? That seems like bad planning to me. You end up with a crowd gathering in the concourse area every time a train arrives, which disrupts flow through the main concourse, particularly to the Underground station.

The escalators are offset from the centre of the roof structure. Symmetry is usually considered more aesthetically pleasing. But that's probably my personal preference.

Yes, it's great architecture, but it could have been even better in my opinion. It's all these minor things which I dislike.

Interesting. I do see where you're coming from. I can't understand why it can't be like at Gare du Nord, where when a Eurostar arrives, the open the glass doors at the end of the platforms, and people simply flood out - they never check passports at the end of the journey anyway!

I have no such qualms about the shopping area, however - it wouldn't even have been accessible in Victorian times, and eating in those little restaurants while sitting next to a huge brick pillar is quite nice, all things considered.

My complaint is the 'new' bit. I feel sorry for EMT - shunted out of the glorious station into a building no more architecturally distinguished than London Euston - and that, I think you'll agree, is saying something! Would it have been so terribly expensive to make it a little more 'ornate' and a little less 'concrete'?

Disclaimer: I still think it's the world's most beautiful terminus!

 

[asylumxl]

Interesting. I do see where you're coming from. I can't understand why it can't be like at Gare du Nord, where when a Eurostar arrives, the open the glass doors at the end of the platforms, and people simply flood out - they never check passports at the end of the journey anyway!

I have no such qualms about the shopping area, however - it wouldn't even have been accessible in Victorian times, and eating in those little restaurants while sitting next to a huge brick pillar is quite nice, all things considered.

My complaint is the 'new' bit. I feel sorry for EMT - shunted out of the glorious station into a building no more architecturally distinguished than London Euston - and that, I think you'll agree, is saying something! Would it have been so terribly expensive to make it a little more 'ornate' and a little less 'concrete'?

Disclaimer: I still think it's the world's most beautiful terminus!

I just feel the number of shops to be excessive. Shops on the concourse, shops on the upper concourse, shops beside the FCC ticket office. The space could have been so better utilised.

I agree about the new bit. It could have atleast taken design cues from the original structure.

 

[The Engineer]

I still miss the Doric Arch from Euston. Let's demolish those office blocks and re-instate it!!

 

[fgwrich]

Actually i think London St Pancras International is a wonderfully, beautiful station and 100% fit for the 21st centuary... the combination of the Shops & Station is amazing... and is certainly the best station in London now... My favourate still being Paddington though....

My only downside with St Pancras is becasue of the roof over the MML platforms... when a HST is fired up and left idling in the platforms... the stench of diesil flows through the station...which when youve just got out of a shop/resturant/The FCC platforms... It really does hit you and i have to admit... lets the station down abit...

But another 2 stations i find are a real let down thanks to British Rail, is Newquay & Penzance...

All newqauy now has is 1 very long platform with a small part of the original station building left at the end of the station...no ticket facilities... toilets in the cafe only...

Penzance... Apart from the nice but very very dirty overall roof... theres really almost nothing left there thats to do with FGW at all...apart from a ticket office, the main part of the stations a Cafe...what a way to start your journey if your on the Night Rivera... standing around in a empty station,thats rather dark and dingy...

real shame indeed! specialy considering the amount of traffic both stations receve!

rich

 

[Danielo]

My vote would go to Euston as well, although I am biassed as I use it everyday!

 

[tbtc]

But another 2 stations i find are a real let down thanks to British Rail, is Newquay & Penzance...

All newqauy now has is 1 very long platform with a small part of the original station building left at the end of the station...no ticket facilities... toilets in the cafe only...

real shame indeed! specialy considering the amount of traffic both stations receve!

Fair point about the volume that Penzance receives - there's a reasonable frequency there. However, Newquay has fewer trains, considerably. It's very busy for the long distance summer weekend services, but I think it'd need more trains before they'd consider making significant improvements to the building/ facilities.

At the moment there's just seven trains a day Monday to Friday (no winter Sunday service, six on summer Sundays), which would need improving before the infrastructure is.

 

[j0hn0]

Rugby used to be great. The roof was a huge structure that has all gone because it was too expensive to renovate. Plus it added to the bottleneck

The satellite picture on virtual earth still shows the old roof. 2 large double sheds on the end of a huge girder structure.

Other architectural features of Rugby were 'the birdcage' carrying the great central over onto a steel and then brick viaduct.

With the awesome old signal gantry that was the biggest in the world

 

[Scouseinmanc]

In my humble opinion, the losses of the following stations:
Liverpool Central High Level
Glasgow St Enoch
Nottingham Victoria
Manchester Central
Birkenhead Woodside

& then the small matter of closure of the Great Central Railway...

 

[mathmo]

I would go for Birmingham New Street over Euston. The platform area at Euston is particularly unpleasant but it's a terminus so you have no reason to spend a long time in there! Birmingham New Street is equally (if not more) unpleasant these days - and you do have to wait on the platforms there.

 

[Geezertronic]

I would go for Birmingham New Street over Euston. The platform area at Euston is particularly unpleasant but it's a terminus so you have no reason to spend a long time in there! Birmingham New Street is equally (if not more) unpleasant these days - and you do have to wait on the platforms there.

Bring on the Gateway project

 

[Mojo]

Am I the only one that doesn't think Euston is that bad? Sure, it may not have the majesty of somewhere like Bristol Temple Meads, but the huge concourse seems to handle the passenger numbers quite well and at least there are some windows providing light onto the concourse. The trains are also well hidden from the concourse itself.

The few windows at BHM look out under the canopy so the light is minimal.

 

[daccer]

eit appears that the re-development of Euston has shifted considerably despite it being required urgently. Anybody know when it is due to be done and also why it seems to be slipping.

I think the Rugby redevelopment has done an ok job on the station and it does look better than the run down mess it had become. I get a feeling that Crewe might receive a similar type of makeover to Rugby when they finally get round to doing up the station. It does need it and I wondering if the station will recover some majesty when all the superflous additions from the 60's onwards are removed. With modern trends for spacious and airy stations it is a chance to get some major stations back to what they one were by removing redundant buildings such as is proposed at edinburgh.

I hope that when the 500 million or so is spent in CP4 on station redevelopment we will be commenting on how the new breed of station compliments the Victorian buildings we have inherited and the 60's will become a forgotten era of station building.

 

[j0hn0]

The point with Rugby is that if that structure had been maintained and renovated, it wouldn't have been demolished like all the other great structures we are talking about.
And then replaced by ugly, cheap mediocrity.

I actually think New Street is the biggest loss, even when renovated, they can't increase the capacity it needs, so maybe, if they decide to relocate it, it was always going to be doomed. Or... they build a new high speed station under the city with HS2 to bypass the busy Birmingham bottlenecks.

I think the owners of Crewe are deciding on whether to relocate the station also.

 

[Geezertronic]

They missed a trick when they rebuilt the Bullring in Birmingham as the Southern paths into the station go directly under the Bullring and because of the foundations that are now in place, you can only ever have 4 paths into the Southern end of Birmingham New Street unless some engineering miracle occurs.

I would be first in the queue to see how they would route HSR2 into the Midlands...

 

[fgwrich]

They missed a trick when they rebuilt the Bullring in Birmingham as the Southern paths into the station go directly under the Bullring and because of the foundations that are now in place, you can only ever have 4 paths into the Southern end of Birmingham New Street unless some engineering miracle occurs.

I would be first in the queue to see how they would route HSR2 into the Midlands...

Well Railtrack was actually offered that space but Railtrack thought they were so good as it is... :roll:

As for HS2... im proberley one of a few in the country that thinks that way High Speed 2 in this county is being planned is poor... but im as intreeged on how they could get it into Birmingham...Mind you... some idiot a while back in one of the magazines suggested Moor Street as a terminous


As for the re-devlopment of Euston... read in the evening standard last friday that it's now hit the ice... and wont be started until 'well after' the olympics... does anyone but me think this has hit the ice completly? If anything... it should be done properley... and bring the Modern in with the heritage, like Kings Cross St Pancras???

rich