Big Four coaching stock

[Beebman]

I've taken a look at my copy of the 1974 edition of the RCTS Coaching Stock which lists 22 LMS-design sleeping cars and 7 LNER-design buffets still in service at the time as follows:

LMS-design sleepers SLSTP-type built 1951/2: 601-624 except 605 & 610 (all dual-heated and allocated to the LMR)

Gresley-design buffets built 1936/7: 9115, 9128, 9131, 9132, 9135 (all steam-heat only and allocated to the ER except 9135 allocated to the WR)

Thompson-design buffets built 1948: 1705, 1706 (both steam-heat only and allocated to the ER).

There were still many pre-nationalisation NPCCS vehicles in use at the time, for example there were about 450 LMS-design bogie full brakes and about 900 SR-design four-wheeled PMVs and CCTs. Some stock had build dates well into the 1950s, for example GWR-design Siphon Gs went up to 1955 and LMS-design CCTs up to 1957.

 

[Taunton]

I think the last actual passenger vehicles built to big-four designs were the 1956 Wirral electric units, built by Met-Cam and BRCW in combination. They were essentially the same as the 1938 initial LMS order for these vehicles; the builders must have kept the jigs in store. Both builds lasted until the 508s came along in the early 1980s. They were part of a family that included the Underground O and P stock, and the 306/506 LNER 1500v DC units, all of which were built half-and-half by the two Birmingham manufacturers. I've often suspected there may have been some common shareholding or directors behind the scenes. The 1938 Wirral units seem to have been the last actual pre-war (as opposed to pre-1948) passenger vehicles in BR use. They remained in surprising good mechanical and presentation condition right to the end, and still looked perfectly alright inside and out when being broken for scrap in Birkenhead docks.

 

[Beebman]

I think the last actual passenger vehicles built to big-four designs were the 1956 Wirral electric units, built by Met-Cam and BRCW in combination. They were essentially the same as the 1938 initial LMS order for these vehicles; the builders must have kept the jigs in store. Both builds lasted until the 508s came along in the early 1980s. They were part of a family that included the Underground O and P stock, and the 306/506 LNER 1500v DC units, all of which were built half-and-half by the two Birmingham manufacturers. I've often suspected there may have been some common shareholding or directors behind the scenes. The 1938 Wirral units seem to have been the last actual pre-war (as opposed to pre-1948) passenger vehicles in BR use. They remained in surprising good mechanical and presentation condition right to the end, and still looked perfectly alright inside and out when being broken for scrap in Birkenhead docks.

In September 1984 I travelled from Reading to Southport via Liverpool for family reasons. On the return I changed at Moorfields for a one-stop journey on the Loop to Lime Street and I was rather surprised to see a Class 503 appear as I thought they'd almost all gone. Indeed it was in very good internal condition but if it was one of the 1956-build vehicles then it would have been 28 years old which is almost 20 years less compared to the age of the Class 313s currently in use on Southern! I recall that there was a feasible proposal to use 503s on the Isle of Wight and it's a shame that it never happened.

 

[Taunton]

There was an absolute contrast on Merseyside by 1980 between the 1938/56 Wirral electric units, and their 1939/40 Southport line clones built by the LMS themselves. The latter in later years developed large rust patches, grubby paint, frayed upholstery, and visibly rippled and warping bodysides. Both however were overhauled on the same line at Horwich works, and both used the same Trojan seating materials and interior paint, and should have looked much the same. But they didn't. Apparently the Wirral units (only?) were hand washed AND WAXED at Birkenhead North depot every couple of weeks - always had been.

 

[randyrippley]

At least one LNER bogie pigeon van survived for occasional use on Waterloo-Exeter passenger services in the late 1970s, painted all-blue.

 

[Taunton]

At least one LNER bogie pigeon van survived for occasional use on Waterloo-Exeter passenger services in the late 1970s, painted all-blue.

I believe these were some of the last company-design vehicles of all built, mid-1950s. They were built at Stratford (may have been the last there too).

 

[Ashley Hill]

I believe these were some of the last company-design vehicles of all built, mid-1950s. They were built at Stratford (may have been the last there too).

There was a LNER pigeon brake at the David & Charles site at Newton Abbot. It was on the SDR for a short time in the 1990s but then left. Was this one of those late builds used on the Waterloo line and what became of it?

 

[Taunton]

There was a LNER pigeon brake at the David & Charles site at Newton Abbot. It was on the SDR for a short time in the 1990s but then left. Was this one of those late builds used on the Waterloo line and what became of it?

Wartime build to Gresley design. Now on the Severn Valley. Here:

LNER 24506 Brake Third - SVR Wiki

www.svrwiki.com

Much as it sounds that the LNER built almost continuously a whole stream of vans kept employed zooming racing pigeons outwards to every corner of the country, it was a bit of a misleading title, as they were really the LNER equivalent of what others would call a General Utility Van, for whatever, mail, parcels, news, luggage in advance, etc (and occasionally pigeons). The key aspect was plain sides but high level shallow windows, to give some light inside without those on platforms being able to see what was within.

 

[Ashley Hill]

So it’s not only locos that are ruined and turned into replicas. I take it there’s a surplus of LNER pigeon vans then! I remember that coach at both NA and on the SDR,indeed I have even ridden down the line in it. It’s a shame to read it’s not what it once was.

 

[randyrippley]

I believe these were some of the last company-design vehicles of all built, mid-1950s. They were built at Stratford (may have been the last there too).

you're not getting mixed up with those 6-wheel vans that Stratford built for SR? They also made appearances on W-E services

 

[Trestrol]

you're not getting mixed up with those 6-wheel vans that Stratford built for SR? They also made appearances on W-E services

No he means the Thompson BZ built 1950.

LNER 70654 6-w Thompson Non-gangwayed Passenger Brake built 1950

Also below is one of the last two LNER Gresley BGP in BR revenue service.

LNER 70754 Gresley Gangwayed Passenger Brake (Pigeon Van) built 1943

 

[Big Jumby 74]

such things as a rake of either Gresley or Thompson's painted black, that were parked up at Wakefield for a period

Further to my earlier post (#13), here are a couple of poor shots I took at Wakefield Kirkgate, on 8th March 1980. Although a fan of the coaching stock books of Hugh Longworth and Mike King etc, I do not (as yet) possess that which applies to Dept. ex LNER stock, as I never really saw that many vehicles from that group. Might have to get the wallet out...

Both seem to be brake vehicles, and that labelled 'Staff & Tool Van' might end in the number 7, so (possibly?) DE 32xxx7? Any other gen on same gratefully received. The two cooling towers behind, was that Power Station known as 'Belle Vue' (after the local area) or called something else? Just curious.

Edited: date of photos taken now confirmed.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I remember seeing an LNER-designed Syphon G van in a parcels train at Bangor station in the early to mid-1970s. I think it was in all-over blue, but can't be certain at this distance in time.

 

[delt1c]

I remember seeing an LNER-designed Syphon G van in a parcels train at Bangor station in the early to mid-1970s. I think it was in all-over blue, but can't be certain at this distance in time.

Syphon G was GWR design, originally for milk transport

 

[Beebman]

Syphon G was GWR design, originally for milk transport

They were still around in the early 1980s, the 1982 RCTS book shows 14 still in service, the only GWR-design vehicles listed apart from those on the Vale of Rheidol. (The book also lists 32 LMS-design bogie full brakes plus another 52 of the SR version with still 228 SR-design 4-wheeled vans remaining in service but nothing at all left of LNER-design vehicles.)

 

[Gloster]

They were still around in the early 1980s, the 1982 RCTS book shows 14 still in service, the only GWR-design vehicles listed apart from those on the Vale of Rheidol. (The book also lists 32 LMS-design bogie full brakes plus another 52 of the SR version with still 228 SR-design 4-wheeled vans remaining in service but nothing at all left of LNER-design vehicles.)

I think the last Siphon G in use were BR-built examples that were used as newspaper packing vans, TOPS code NNV.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Syphon G was GWR design, originally for milk transport

Duh! Yes, GWR.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

One of the model makers has earmarked a Syphon G as a pending OO gauge release I believe, which I was pleased to see. Use to see them quite often on the SWD(SR), and many more on Sunday bashes round OOC..

 

[Deepgreen]

Moving onto multiple units, the 4COR EMUs.

Along with 2BIL, 2HAL, 5BEL and 4LAV types.

 

[32475]

This inspired me to dig out a photo of some ex GWR passenger stock outside Paddington on 30th April 1981. Sorry it’s not a great quality picture but these sorts of vintage vehicles were always good to look out for.
Going to school by train to Brighton in the ‘70s there were always plenty of Big Four vehicles to see in the goods yard including an old locomotive tender converted into a snow plough plus the steam crane.

 

[Ashley Hill]

This inspired me to dig out a photo of some ex GWR passenger stock outside Paddington on 30th April 1981. Sorry it’s not a great quality picture but these sorts of vintage vehicles were always good to look out for.
Going to school by train to Brighton in the ‘70s there were always plenty of Big Four vehicles to see in the goods yard including an old locomotive tender converted into a snow plough plus the steam crane.
View attachment 126539

I remember a couple of coaches like these parked in Old Yard,Exeter. I believe they were used as mess vans and accommodation during Exeter re-signalling. No idea what became of them.

 

[Revaulx]

Along with 2BIL, 2HAL, 5BEL and 4LAV types.

I think the 4-CORs outlasted all the rest. I certainly travelled on them on what’s now known as Coastway in August 1972.

 

[davidknibb]

I don't really know the history of stock on the Metropolitan Line - but I recall as a kid Electric Locos (eg the famous Sarah Siddons - no 12 I think) pulling coaches as far as Rickmansworth where a steam engine took over. The coaches were pre war, and were used until about 1960 when the line was electrified to Amersham.

Does this count ??

 

[30907]

I don't really know the history of stock on the Metropolitan Line - but I recall as a kid Electric Locos (eg the famous Sarah Siddons - no 12 I think) pulling coaches as far as Rickmansworth where a steam engine took over. The coaches were pre war, and were used until about 1960 when the line was electrified to Amersham.

Does this count ??

On the OP's criterion "surviving beyond the end of steam," no, as they were all withdrawn immediately though some were preserved. But in terms of age, quite impressive: the "Chesham" coaches were 1898, and the nearest competitor would be the bodies of pre-WW1 coaches which had been put on new underframes by the SR; I believe one of those, S1050S, survived until 1961-2 before going to the Bluebell.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Aside from the famous Gresley buffets, how many other pre-nationalisation carriages survived beyond the end of steam?

Keeping it to loco hauled coaches to begin with!

As the OP of this thread, are you looking for peeps to submit details/lists of their (now) ancient observations? Only wondered, as I, and no doubt others, could list vehicles noted, particularly those that survived in to Dept. use. Over to you......with a health warning that any such list(s) could become quite long, particularly from my (SR) neck of the woods...

 

[Beebman]

I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread the RCTS Coaching Stock Books which are a useful source of information (I have the editions for 1974, 1978 and 1982) so I took at look at the Society's website to see if there's any sort of useful info on pre-nationalisation stock after 1970 and indeed there is! There's a page called Carriage Conundrums which at the bottom links to lists of pre-nationalisation coaching stock disposals in the 1970s. The top link goes to a sub-menu for passenger-carrying vehicles and then the next 4 go to similar menus for each of the grouping companies' NPCCS. I'm not sure how complete the listings are, for example there's nothing for SR-design 4-wheeled PMVs and CCTs (I'd guess that would take far too long to compile) but there's still a huge amount of info which hopefully will be of interest to the OP.

 

[Gloster]

Southern Railway Passenger Vans by David Gould (Oakwood, 1992) contains a pretty comprehensive list of dates of withdrawal and, where possible, initial fate. There are also books by Gould on Maunsell and Bulleid coaches.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread the RCTS Coaching Stock Books which are a useful source of information (I have the editions for 1974, 1978 and 1982) so I took at look at the Society's website to see if there's any sort of useful info on pre-nationalisation stock after 1970 and indeed there is! There's a page called Carriage Conundrums which at the bottom links to lists of pre-nationalisation coaching stock disposals in the 1970s. The top link goes to a sub-menu for passenger-carrying vehicles and then the next 4 go to similar menus for each of the grouping companies' NPCCS. I'm not sure how complete the listings are, for example there's nothing for SR-design 4-wheeled PMVs and CCTs (I'd guess that would take far too long to compile) but there's still a huge amount of info which hopefully will be of interest to the OP.

Southern Railway Passenger Vans by David Gould (Oakwood, 1992) contains a pretty comprehensive list of dates of withdrawal and, where possible, initial fate. There are also books by Gould on Maunsell and Bulleid coaches.

I myself am familiar with both, although (Beebman) I only have the 1978 edition of the RCTS works, and (Gloster) I also have that to which you refer. Both are goldmines to info to which those of us who are interested, can refer to, and I would recommend both (all) to anyone else interested in same. In some ways it is understandable perhaps that such works are of a niche value in railway circles, and thus when published may come at a premium, but that in itself will only reflect the amount of research work (etc) that has gone in to any such publications. In that context I will for my part, where such works interest me, always purchase a copy of, knowing full well how much work will have gone in to same in the first place.

 

[matchmaker]

I've taken a look at my copy of the 1974 edition of the RCTS Coaching Stock which lists 22 LMS-design sleeping cars and 7 LNER-design buffets still in service at the time as follows:

LMS-design sleepers SLSTP-type built 1951/2: 601-624 except 605 & 610 (all dual-heated and allocated to the LMR)

Gresley-design buffets built 1936/7: 9115, 9128, 9131, 9132, 9135 (all steam-heat only and allocated to the ER except 9135 allocated to the WR)

Thompson-design buffets built 1948: 1705, 1706 (both steam-heat only and allocated to the ER).

There were still many pre-nationalisation NPCCS vehicles in use at the time, for example there were about 450 LMS-design bogie full brakes and about 900 SR-design four-wheeled PMVs and CCTs. Some stock had build dates well into the 1950s, for example GWR-design Siphon Gs went up to 1955 and LMS-design CCTs up to 1957.

Hugh Longworths book shows the last SLSTP to be withdrawn was M616M in November 1976.