Big Four coaching stock

[L+Y]

Aside from the famous Gresley buffets, how many other pre-nationalisation carriages survived beyond the end of steam?

Keeping it to loco hauled coaches to begin with!

 

[Iskra]

Quite a bit. Some LMS Portholes and Stanier stuff did.

Most famous was a 6 wheeler from pre-grouping times I believe, used as a generator coach for another pre-nationalisation cinema coach.

 

[Magdalia]

Aside from the famous Gresley buffets, how many other pre-nationalisation carriages survived beyond the end of steam?

And the 2 Thompson ex Flying Scotsman buffet cars.

A few LNER sleeping cars and travelling post offices ran until 1969. see Kings Cross Lineside by David Percival.

 

[30907]

A number of Bulleid coaches were transferred to Northern climes to release Mk1s for rebuilding into REP/TC stock, some being repainted maroon (none into blue and grey AFAIK), and survived beyond 1968.

The Maunsell TPOs survived into the mid 70s and were repainted into B/G (so I would include them here).

Were there also some ex LMS sleepers, or has Iskra covered that?

 

[StephenHunter]

Do CIWL Type Fs count in this? They were hauled by Southern locos initially.

 

[Taunton]

A lot of what is regarded as "pre-nationalisation" stock, and numbered as such, was actually built after January 1948. Not only did it take a further three years before the first Mk 1 stock came out, but the railway was in considerable need of new post-war vehicles, not having built much since 1939. Significant numbers of such carriages were built, to the designs of all four companies; for example the bulk of GWR Hawksworth-design vehicles were built in early BR times, and likewise the LMS Portholes mentioned above.

 

[cadder toad]

Its possible that 20-25% of LMS-built coaches reached 1968. Very few were painted blue/grey so they must have been withdrawn shortly after that date. Some LMS built sleepers and lots of BGs survived well into the 1970s and were painted blue/grey, or just blue for most of the BGs. Apparently only one TYPE of day coach survived long enough to be painted blue/grey - a BSK.

Edit one type of coach, not one example

 

[thedbdiboy]

Its possible that 20-25% of LMS-built coaches reached 1968. Very few were painted blue/grey so they must have been withdrawn shortly after that date. Some LMS built sleepers and lots of BGs survived well into the 1970s and were painted blue/grey, or just blue for most of the BGs. Apparently only one day coach survived long enough to be painted blue/grey - a BSK.

Some BR-built to LMS design 'Porthole' coaches received blue and grey livery as well as Electric Train Heating to work in AC loco hauled trains post-WCML electrification until sufficient Mk2s were available.

 

[Speed43125]

Its possible that 20-25% of LMS-built coaches reached 1968. Very few were painted blue/grey so they must have been withdrawn shortly after that date. Some LMS built sleepers and lots of BGs survived well into the 1970s and were painted blue/grey, or just blue for most of the BGs. Apparently only one day coach survived long enough to be painted blue/grey - a BSK.

I suspect it was more than one that received blue-grey. Here's a CK so painted

c.1970 - Wolverton Works, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire.

Best viewed Original size. Dual-heat BR (built Derby 1949-50 to LMS "Porthole" design, Diag 2159, Lot 1500) blue/grey-liveried CK(A) M24635M at Wolverton - c.1970. This is thought to be the only "Porthole" CK to receive blue/grey livery. © 2017 - 53A Models of Hull Collection. Scanned from...

www.flickr.com

As mentioned various BGs, great western fruit vans and Sr. Vans found their way into the early 70s.

 

[Helvellyn]

Niche, but the former LNWR Chairman's saloon (built 1920) lasted until 1990 with the Royal Train (numbered 2911).

A number of Big Four Royal vehicles lasted until the 1970s/80s as well.

 

[BigB]

And the 2 Thompson ex Flying Scotsman buffet cars.

A few LNER sleeping cars and travelling post offices ran until 1969. see Kings Cross Lineside by David Percival.

At least one LNER sleeping car lasted until the 1970s and was painted blue and grey. It is preserved and has been repainted in blue and grey with the interior refurbished to show one side original spec, and the other BR days, and should be on display at Bo'ness coupled to a Mk3 Caledonian Sleeper coach this year.

 

[StephenHunter]

At least one LNER sleeping car lasted until the 1970s and was painted blue and grey. It is preserved and has been repainted in blue and grey with the interior refurbished to show one side original spec, and the other BR days, and should be on display at Bo'ness coupled to a Mk3 Caledonian Sleeper coach this year.

Any pictures of that interior? I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I would always look out for Gresley/Thompson (buffet cars) in the 70's, blue/grey era. To my regret never got to ride in one on the ECML, but did see examples on various occasions. Parcels stock lasted much longer obviously, and down South here, numerous instances (notes I made) of ex LNE, GW, LM, vans at my local station when they were part of routine van train consists. Best place I found for old carriages was the Engineers dept, and their depots, where many old carriages could be seen, some heavily modified, others less so. Maunsell figured to a greater extent in my obs, with some Bulleid, and older SE&CR etc, but also such things as a rake of either Gresley or Thompson's painted black, that were parked up at Wakefield for a period, but think they later migrated to Doncaster if my memory is correct (DE series).

 

[delt1c]

There were also some LNER 6 Wheeler parcels vans lasted till the mid 70,s and received blue

 

[matchmaker]

Some BR-built to LMS design 'Porthole' coaches received blue and grey livery as well as Electric Train Heating to work in AC loco hauled trains post-WCML electrification until sufficient Mk2s were available.

Same with some of the 12 wheel first class sleepers. I can remember seeing a rake of the LMS design but BR built second class sleepers in Aberdeen in the early 1970s in blue & grey, but I don't know if they had ETH.

 

[Beebman]

I've come across a Flickr photo pool Blue and Grey ex LNER buffet cars with 84 photos.

 

[John Webb]

I recall during the 1950s the carriage sidings at Maze Hill near Greenwich were full of SR pre-WW2 coaching stock kept there for excursions and the Summer holiday traffic. I was too young to appreciate exactly what the stock was; seemed to be mostly sets of coaches.

 

[Taunton]

Same with some of the 12 wheel first class sleepers. I can remember seeing a rake of the LMS design but BR built second class sleepers in Aberdeen in the early 1970s in blue & grey, but I don't know if they had ETH.

All the LMS-pattern 12-wheel sleepers, which I think were some of the last company designs built in the early 1950s, had dual heat installed in the early 1960s as they ran on the WCML, which from about 1964, when wires were switched on as far south as Nuneaton, changed locos at both Crewe and Nuneaton. It had a significant impact on stock fitting and reallocations at the time. Dual heat because there were hardly any ETH diesels at the time.

 

[Gloster]

Plenty of Southern B, CCT, GUV and PMV, and LMS B, some dating back to the 1930s, lasted into the 1980s. A few 4-SUB from Southern Railway days also lasted into the 1980s.

 

[32475]

Do CIWL Type Fs count in this? They were hauled by Southern locos initially.

Similarly Pullman stock and I have in mind those built by Metropolitan Cammell and used on the Golden Arrow and Bournemouth Belle (other Pullman trains applied also of course).

 

[StephenHunter]

Moving onto multiple units, the 4COR EMUs.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Moving onto multiple units, the 4COR EMUs.

Somewhat worn and battered in their last years. One could ride in the van, and watch the floor boards moving at odds with the walls, especially when en route around the curves of the PDL...

 

[4SubAsociation]

Bluebell Railway did have a few Big Four Coaches which where painted in Blue Grey or surrived after 1968.

The LMS Sleeper and the TPO where painted to blue grey.

Bluebell Railway Carriages - No.M398M

www.bluebell-railway.co.uk

Bluebell Railway Carriages – SR Travelling Post Office 4922

www.bluebell-railway.co.uk

Quite a few of Bluebell Manusell and Bulleid coaches surrived into departmental service of various roles.

EMUs

2BIL/2HAL (Withdrawn 1971)
4COR (withdrawn 1972)
4SUB (Epbs where a similar design to the SUB but all where built by BR bar some centre carriages) (Passenger serivce 1982 bar 4732. Carriages 10239 and 12354 where built in 1946 and 48 respectively, some departmental units with one surving until 2013 at derby)
5BEL (withdrawn 1971, nearly all vechiles bar one survive)
Class 502 (withdrawn by 1980 bar 28361 and 29896 which was used for specials for a while)
Class 503 (withdrawn in 1985 bar 28690, 29720 and 29289 whih was used for specials until 1988)

 

[StephenHunter]

The Class 306s were ordered by LNER before the war, but not delivered until after nationalisation.

 

[Trestrol]

The Class 306s were ordered by LNER before the war, but not delivered until after nationalisation.

Some were delivered in LNER days. There is documented evidence of a body repair done at Ilford and evidence of LNER livery applied.

 

[Beebman]

The Class 306s were ordered by LNER before the war, but not delivered until after nationalisation.

Same with the Class 506s.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The Waterloo & City line Class 487 EMUs were delivered to the Southern Railway in 1940 and remained in service until 1993.

 

[Beebman]

Some pre-1948 4SUB trailer cars survived until the early 1990s formed in 4EPB sets. The very painstakingly constructed 4EPB page at Blood and Custard has all the details:

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/sR-4epb.html

As one example, refurbished unit 5446 contained trailers 15466/7 which were originally 1946-built vehicles 10444/8 from 4SUB unit 4617. The unit survived until January 1993.

 

[contrex]

Plenty of Southern B, CCT, GUV and PMV, and LMS B, some dating back to the 1930s, lasted into the 1980s. A few 4-SUB from Southern Railway days also lasted into the 1980s.

By that time all the pre-nationalisation SUBs built by the SR from 1941, 1944 and 1946-1947 had gone; the last ones were 1948-1951 BR-built ones. Some trailers were recycled into EPBs that lasted into the 1990s.

 

[30907]

I recall during the 1950s the carriage sidings at Maze Hill near Greenwich were full of SR pre-WW2 coaching stock kept there for excursions and the Summer holiday traffic. I was too young to appreciate exactly what the stock was; seemed to be mostly sets of coaches.

This is getting OT, but in the mid 50s it would have included ex SEC "long sets" of compartment stock (quite possibly rebuilt by the SR like so much of their suburban electric stock) and early Maunsell "Hastings" (restriction 0) corridors.