Big decrease in passenger satisfaction for Southeastern, big increase for Hull Trains

[Clip]

A big chunk of SouthEastern's trains run on HS1, which is entirely self-contained and solely for passenger trains.

.

I wouldnt say a big chunk and I also wouldnt say that it was self contained considering that they also travel on the classic lines too.

The problem with these surveys si that if they catch people on a bad week of delays and cancellations then that is what the answer will be - the same with cleanliness of trains and stations - overall its quite good but someone is having a bad day then even noticing a coffeee cup on an empty table will give the impression that the train is dirty.

Not to take anything away from these surveys as they are useful as a tool to measure performance but they really shouldnt be taken as gospel as to how the railway does.

 

[talltim]

I found that very honest though & something I have thought all along.

Its not not true, but they aren't the only London suburban TOC with the same issue.

 

[DJL]

My sister told me she was handed a survey while waiting at Victoria in absolute caos.

If all the surveys were done on the same day I think it is likely that the results are somewhat skewed by the major disruption of that day.

 

[Bald Rick]

The London TOCs charge premium prices, yet the service they deliver is astoundingly mediocre. When I've paid four grand for a service, the "slightest inconvenience" is wholly unacceptable.

Feel free to take your money elsewhere and use the alternatives!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My sister told me she was handed a survey while waiting at Victoria in absolute caos.

If all the surveys were done on the same day I think it is likely that the results are somewhat skewed by the major disruption of that day.

They are usually done over a couple of days at each station, and over a couple of weeks across the network. But it is true that people are more likely to fill in a survey on a 'bad' day than a good day- for one thing they have some time to kill while waiting for their delayed train.

 

[northwichcat]

Passenger Focus have also done a comparison page between different operators for different questions

http://data.passengerfocus.org.uk/train/nps/question/service-punctuality/

 

[GodAtum]

I take both Southern and SWT each day. They both have their pros and cons.

 

[jnjkerbin]

A big chunk of SouthEastern's trains run on HS1, which is entirely self-contained and solely for passenger trains.

If SouthEastern can't make the fast modern trains on HS1 work for their reputation, then something is very badly wrong.

Except that High Speed services had 87% satisfied with journeys compared to c2c who had only 2% more

 

[7griffinjack]

I've been thoroughly impressed with Hull Trains whenever I have travelled with them. In standard class the legroom in the airline seats is really impressive. There are plug sockets for at least every 2 seats and complimentary Wi-Fi. The Wi-Fi has really been the deciding factor for a lot of people that I've spoken to. Their tickets are usually a little cheaper than East Coast when booked in advance too. I have no first hand experience of Fist Class but it's supposed to fairly decent.

I'd really love to see them increase their frequency soon if possible! Although their network is obviously very simple, many TOC's really need to look to them to see where they can improve.

 

[LBSCR Times]

No surprise to see FCC and FGW near the bottom.

They don't do a bad job by any stretch of the imagination but at any given time have a look at their twitter feeds and you can see their passengers will complain at the slightest inconvenience (FCC not helped by @firstplatform of course, their resident troll?), so if there was a survey I could imagine them knocking the companies for anything!

Especially when you think that an FCC train can get from Bedford to Blackfriars on time, then gets regulated for late running South Eastern services, and after that Network Rail apply the policy of its late, so it will get delayed even further.
No wonder Thameslink South commuters rate it only 27%, but then again it also includes those services to Sevenoaks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take both Southern and SWT each day. They both have their pros and cons.

Yes, one of Southern's 'cons' is running peak hour services fast.
Contra-peak and off-peak, yes, to protect the peak, but when a Down West Coast evening peak service is running 9' late, and it is run fast, then no wonder Southern's Sussex Coast figure is low!

 

[EM2]

My season ticket is nearly four and a half grand a year for a 23-mile train ride. It's double what I'd pay for an equivalent journey such as Halifax to Manchester.

Damn right I, and most other passengers, will complain when we're not getting the service we're paying through the nose for. It's why London TOCs are always at the bottom of the pile.

So don't do it, then. Withdraw your custom and hit the company in the pocket, if you don't think you're receiving the product you should.
You can run a bloody good car for that money.

 

[TUC]

If you're too visually impaired to see the CIS you'll probably either hear a platform announcement as the train arrives, or will have booked assistance and someone will be on the platform to tell them how many stops, or someone will be getting them off the train at the other end!

I can certainly understand drivers not wanting to make announcements, especially with the amount of stops FCC have, announcing unfortunately comes quite far down the priority list for a driver. It won't be long until the new stock comes through with a proper PIS though!

It's very important for visually impaired people that there are announcements, even when they have arranged assistance. Where there are multiple stops, including occeasions when the trains stops between stations, it can be very hard to know where the train actually is, and the concern is that you have gone past the stop without the assistance arriving.

It's also helpful for other passengers. I've had the experience on FCC myself of looking up when the train has stopped at a station to discover that there were no station signs visible form the window.

It's every bit as much a core accessibility requirement as wheelchair accessible trains and should be a normal expectation of any train service.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of customers responded to the survey. It woukd be interesting to know if Southeastern and the other poorer performing TOCs had a higher percentage f passengers responding.

In theory they should get the same response rate, but if survey was done on a bad day or week they would get a higher response rate and of course the responses would be more negative.

 

[TheJRB]

It always fascinates me how c2c manages to escape the "London commuter syndrome" which seems to trouble a number of TOCs (although I notice Chiltern which provides a commuter service to the two biggest cities does very well).

What I find interesting too is that none of the ten most overcrowded trains are with Southeastern and yet there's still a lot of dissatisfaction with overcrowding. What's strange is that it's the Mainline rating which is lowest of all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kent's commuter market is smaller that say that of Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Berkshire for example. There are plenty of 12 car trains on the main line in the peak and from experience on the SEML, they're only properly full and standing after Sevenoaks. The Metro side tends to be much busier and yet that gets a higher rating! I recently saw a few trains leaving Waterloo East on a Saturday evening heading for Gravesend via the Sidcup line, Sevenoaks via Grove Park and Dartford that were much busier than "Mainline" services (indeed the Gravesend train was full and standing). I definitely still get the feeling that people are impressed by the High Speed service though.

 

[TUC]

My sister told me she was handed a survey while waiting at Victoria in absolute caos.

If all the surveys were done on the same day I think it is likely that the results are somewhat skewed by the major disruption of that day.

Except that if the chaos was being well managed by the TOCs affected and the passengers feeling well looked after that could positively benefit their survey results.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting how the industry was quick to rubbish the Which report back in February, but the Passenger Focus results pretty much match Which's data.

Which found SouthEastern, Greater Anglia and FCC to be the worst, closely followed by Northern, FGW and SWT.

Passenger Focus found SouthEastern and FCC to be the worst, closely followed by Northern, FGW, SWT and Greater Anglia.

SouthEastern's response to the Which survey in February was to say that they did badly because the service ‘takes people somewhere they don’t want to be with money they don’t want to pay’.

No wonder they're stinking the league tables out with customer service like that.

Wall if they feel like that why did they bid for the franchise in the first place? They must have seen some business merit in it .

 

[Pumbaa]

So don't do it, then. Withdraw your custom and hit the company in the pocket, if you don't think you're receiving the product you should.
You can run a bloody good car for that money.

It's not like the majority of commuters can actually use the car as a real alternative though. Sorry to disagree, but the ball is firmly with the rail network here. I think on the whole season tickets are great value for money (don't get me wrong) but the level of service provided can be frankly embarrassing.

 

[EM2]

It's not like the majority of commuters can actually use the car as a real alternative though. Sorry to disagree, but the ball is firmly with the rail network here. I think on the whole season tickets are great value for money (don't get me wrong) but the level of service provided can be frankly embarrassing.

In this instance, Arctic Troll says he does twenty-three miles from Hemel Hempstead, judging by the location on his profile. I have a colleague that does that every day, by car. It takes longer, it costs more (because he could get a discounted season ticket), but it's what he prefers.
Passenger numbers continue to grow, and the enhancements haven't kept pace (because it would be impossible), so something has to give.

 

[Bald Rick]

In this instance, Arctic Troll says he does twenty-three miles from Hemel Hempstead, judging by the location on his profile. I have a colleague that does that every day, by car. It takes longer, it costs more (because he could get a discounted season ticket), but it's what he prefers.
Passenger numbers continue to grow, and the enhancements haven't kept pace (because it would be impossible), so something has to give.

Agreed, but I also agree with Pumbaa. There are alternatives for most London Commuters, be it car, bus, tube, motorbike, cycle or combination thereof. I know people in Hertfordshire who between them have done all of these. Each individual will make their personal trade offs between cost, comfort and time for their door to door journey and decide which mode is best. However the fact that my 12 car train from St. Albans this morning has 50 people standing in each coach (I've counted my coach anyway) suggests that the train is the preferred option for for a sizeable proportion of the market, and thus that it offers great value compared to the alternatives. If it didn't, the market would surely vote with its feet (or wheels).

Nevertheless, annual season tickets cost a lot of money. If I spend £3k on a plane fare I expect personal attention, the finest food, wine and the best looking attendants I would also be treated very well by the person I hand the cash too. But I'll only get that for one return trip across the Atlantic, and not upwards of 200 return trips to the capital. So I think part of the problem is that passengers see a huge outlay, without perhaps realising that, actually, it is great value for money.

That said, it doesn't excuse poor customer service. I can sort of understand the odd sour face when an individual member of staff has had to put up with a shift full of angry, difficult or sometimes just plain stupid customers, but too often the general attitude appears to be that customers are an inconvenience to be tolerated and spoken to only when absolutely necessary. I think perhaps we in the rail industry should have a similar selection and training policy to Pret - I've never seen an unhappy member of the team there.

On a brighter note I have been delighted to have been given a cheery welcome at Blackfriars every day this week (except today!), hoping I had a good journey and that I have a great day. That costs nothing, and makes a difference to passenger perception about customer service. Why it has taken FCC until the last 80 days of their franchise to do this, with the outstanding exception of James at St Albans aside, is the subject of another essay.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are alternatives for most London Commuters, be it car, bus, tube, motorbike, cycle or combination thereof. I know people in Hertfordshire who between them have done all of these. Each individual will make their personal trade offs between cost, comfort and time for their door to door journey and decide which mode is best

Definitely. For me, living literally over the road from the railway station, the railway is the best option, especially as I don't own a car. If I didn't work splat in the middle of Islington, within the congestion charging zone, it might be a different decision. The railway is best option for me.

But for £350 a month I expect a better service than I currently receive. The train I take to work is now 25 years old and has never been refreshed or refurbished in that time. The station I travel from is supposedly staffed but is regularly closed- it was closed again this morning, and the TVM was broken too. I'm yet to see the ticket office open for the full TSA hours in the three months I've lived here. The line will be closed for much of August yet this is not reflected in the price I have paid for my annual season ticket. I can't fault the customer service from the guards on London Midland (we're lucky to still have them), nor from LM's Twitter team, but trying to get information at Euston during disruption is next to impossible. During disruption my local station is usually the first one to see cancellations.

FCC are worse. The only time you see staff on FCC trains is when some stroppy RPI demands to see a ticket, with neither a please nor a thank you.

My point isn't whether my ticket is good or bad value, just that a) it is a lot of money and b) people have higher expectations from more expensive tickets.

If I spend £3k on a plane fare I expect personal attention, the finest food, wine and the best looking attendants I would also be treated very well by the person I hand the cash too.

Again, that's really my point. If you go and drop £4k in one go anywhere else, and I mean anywhere else, the company will treat you well. These days, even my bank offers me a coffee. Now I'm not saying railway staff should be giving the full kiss-ass treatment you'd get on a first class airline ticket. But there's the unshakeable feeling that the TOC considers passengers to be a nuisance that they wish they could get rid of. Even the style of announcements is passive-aggressive; you must do this, you must not do that and my personal pet hate passengers are reminded.

 

[Moonshot]

Definitely. For me, living literally over the road from the railway station, the railway is the best option, especially as I don't own a car. If I didn't work splat in the middle of Islington, within the congestion charging zone, it might be a different decision. The railway is best option for me.

But for £350 a month I expect a better service than I currently receive. The train I take to work is now 25 years old and has never been refreshed or refurbished in that time. The station I travel from is supposedly staffed but is regularly closed- it was closed again this morning, and the TVM was broken too. I'm yet to see the ticket office open for the full TSA hours in the three months I've lived here. The line will be closed for much of August yet this is not reflected in the price I have paid for my annual season ticket. I can't fault the customer service from the guards on London Midland (we're lucky to still have them), nor from LM's Twitter team, but trying to get information at Euston during disruption is next to impossible. During disruption my local station is usually the first one to see cancellations.

FCC are worse. The only time you see staff on FCC trains is when some stroppy RPI demands to see a ticket, with neither a please nor a thank you.

My point isn't whether my ticket is good or bad value, just that a) it is a lot of money and b) people have higher expectations from more expensive tickets.



Again, that's really my point. If you go and drop £4k in one go anywhere else, and I mean anywhere else, the company will treat you well. These days, even my bank offers me a coffee. Now I'm not saying railway staff should be giving the full kiss-ass treatment you'd get on a first class airline ticket. But there's the unshakeable feeling that the TOC considers passengers to be a nuisance that they wish they could get rid of. Even the style of announcements is passive-aggressive; you must do this, you must not do that and my personal pet hate passengers are reminded.

Just out of interest, if you were offered employment in Hemel Hempstead which came with a salary of £500/month less than what you get now, but meant you could walk to work in 5 minutes, is that something you would take up bearing in mind you would save the £350 conmmuting cost but would still be £150 down on your current salary?

 

[Aictos]

Hull Trains and Grand Central share tracks with almost as many operators as East Coast do. Do you think they have their own lines in and out of Kings Cross?

Umm how many services do they run compared to East Coast THEN come back to me with the answer :roll:

With the Open Access Operators running a handful of services, it doesn't take a genius to work out their results in these surveys will be in the mid to top 90s easily compared to the like of Virgin Trains, East Coast, FGW who operate much more services so are likely to be lower in the surveys.

I know full well who operates over the ECML as I use it every single day, I'm trying to make the point that because they operate a handful of services it's no surprise they are constantly achieving high results.

 

[northwichcat]

Umm how many services do they run compared to East Coast THEN come back to me with the answer :roll:

Don't be so ridiculous. You incorrectly made out that Grand Central ran self-contained services which aren't affected by other operators and then have the cheek to write a comment like that when I pointed out what the actual situation is!

 

[Moonshot]

Umm how many services do they run compared to East Coast THEN come back to me with the answer :roll:

With the Open Access Operators running a handful of services, it doesn't take a genius to work out their results in these surveys will be in the mid to top 90s easily compared to the like of Virgin Trains, East Coast, FGW who operate much more services so are likely to be lower in the surveys.

I know full well who operates over the ECML as I use it every single day, I'm trying to make the point that because they operate a handful of services it's no surprise they are constantly achieving high results.

Im not so sure what the correlation is between numbers of services and results - remember the survey is about the passenger experience!! I rather think that the higher scores for OA operators is more related to Customer Service - an example being Grand Central who have score considerably higher than last year when passengers were asked " How well did the operator deal with delays ?".

 

[Dave1987]

Even the style of announcements is passive-aggressive; you must do this, you must not do that and my personal pet hate passengers are reminded.

May I point out that most staff get like that because some passengers don't pay the slightest attention to what is being said to them. You can hear several announcements saying which platform the next London bound service is going from yet still have passengers asking the same question even though they were told not two seconds ago but were not listening. Most are too busy engrossed in their smart phones or with their earphones on so don't hear what is being told them. That is why staff get frustrated from repeating themselves twenty or thirty times over.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That is why staff get frustrated from repeating themselves twenty or thirty times over.

The staff in Pret get asked for a white coffee and a croissant 27,899 times a day but they don't get arsey.

Not that all do; the LM guards on my route tend to be very good. And I'm currently on an EC train where the guard is fantastic, and even accepted RTVs for weekend first without batting an eyelid.

 

[SF-02]

I have sympathy for staff who get screamed at, abused and treated in a disgusting manner when it is not there fault.

Many of those Pret staff would lose their rag if faced with that on a continuous basis.

 

[Dave1987]

The staff in Pret get asked for a white coffee and a croissant 27,899 times a day but they don't get arsey.

Not that all do; the LM guards on my route tend to be very good. And I'm currently on an EC train where the guard is fantastic, and even accepted RTVs for weekend first without batting an eyelid.

I will give you an example:

Tannoy announcement - "Passengers please be advised your next London bound service is the 09.58 on platform 6, that's platform 6, that's platform 6, that's platform 6 for the 09.58 your next London bound service". That is what was actually said on the Tannoy.

Literally 5 seconds after that announcement was made a passenger went up the platform staff and asked "where is the next London bound service?"

And you wonder why staff get a bit frustrated at times?

 

[northwichcat]

According to this article: http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2014/passengers-vote-their-favourite-train-company/ Southeastern are one of the TOCs who respond to all their complaints within 20 days. Chiltern, TPE and c2c are the only other operators who achieve that target. Virgin Trains on the other hand only respond to 33% within 20 days but also deal with the most complaints.

 

[westv]

I will give you an example:

Tannoy announcement - "Passengers please be advised your next London bound service is the 09.58 on platform 6, that's platform 6, that's platform 6, that's platform 6 for the 09.58 your next London bound service". That is what was actually said on the Tannoy.

Literally 5 seconds after that announcement was made a passenger went up the platform staff and asked "where is the next London bound service?"

And you wonder why staff get a bit frustrated at times?

Perhaps the passenger was in a part of the station where the announcement was illegible??

 

[Emyr]

I'd have great trouble reading a verbal announcement.

 

[DaiGog]

Umm how many services do they run compared to East Coast THEN come back to me with the answer :roll:

With the Open Access Operators running a handful of services, it doesn't take a genius to work out their results in these surveys will be in the mid to top 90s easily compared to the like of Virgin Trains, East Coast, FGW who operate much more services so are likely to be lower in the surveys.

I know full well who operates over the ECML as I use it every single day, I'm trying to make the point that because they operate a handful of services it's no surprise they are constantly achieving high results.

It dosen't matter how many (or few) services you operate, the survey results reflect the experience of the passenger. So if you get it largely right, your results ought to be good. If you get it wrong, they will not.

It may be arguably easier for a smaller number of services to run on time etc, but if anything, one trainful of HT passengers who are let down by the company is a bigger percentage of the operator's total passengers left dissatisfied.