Bicester Town > Village - flawed renaming

[RPM]

Oh please. The people wanting to get to Bicester Village shopping outlet - as opposed to the stupidly-named station - on a train seem to have managed to do somehow for 20 years, despite the oh-so-confusing names of the stations with, er, Bicester in them....

Actually the number of foreign tourists milling around in a state of confusion has dropped noticeably since Bicester Village station opened. If it had been called Bicester Town then we'd still be fielding dozens of questions every trip about which Bicester station they should be travelling to. Now it is crystal clear, even to complete non-English speakers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for the implied criticism of a commercial company making commercial decisions that are in their commercial interest, well shock horror. Whatever next?

I'm both baffled and amused by how hot under the collar some people are getting over such a nugatory matter. It isn't going to change in the foreseeable future. Like it or lump it.

 

[JaJaWa]

Which is bizarre as I've been to a lot of shopping centres in China, selling exactly the same products, which are distinctly very empty apart from the food bits. Are they really cheaper in England, considering the products are made in China itself or Vietnam, Malaysia etc?

Sorry off topic.

Much cheaper than China I'm sure - 'luxury goods' there are very expensive due to specific taxes targetting them (same reason all the shopping centres and trains to the border in Hong Kong are packed with Chinese tourists carrying bags full).

 

[CyrusWuff]

A very good question. I was under the impression that it was really not all that different to "outlet villages" that can also be found at (among other locations) Glasshoughton, Street in Somerset, and Cheshire Oaks. Only one of those has a railway station and I don't see Grand Central being in a rush to divert their services to bring hordes of Chinese tourists there!

The main difference between Bicester Village and the likes of London Designer Outlet is the brands.

Bicester offers Armani, Burberry, Calvin Klein, Dolce & Gabbana, Dior, Gucci, TAG Heuer and Versace, to name but a few, whereas London Designer Outlet offers Adidas, Claires Accessories, Gap, H&M, Hallmark, Holland & Barrett, M&S and Next...Not exactly the same league!

 

[Clip]

Theres also one within spitting distance of Ashford station which SET don't even bother to advertise on their website - they all want the traffic to London you see whereas Chiltern have scored massively with Bicester village and extra traffic away from London(they are already busy going into it) so fair play to them.

and those who don't get why they want to go shopping don't understand those who like to shop.

 

[jimm]

Actually the number of foreign tourists milling around in a state of confusion has dropped noticeably since Bicester Village station opened. If it had been called Bicester Town then we'd still be fielding dozens of questions every trip about which Bicester station they should be travelling to. Now it is crystal clear, even to complete non-English speakers.

And what exactly would be so hard about announcing Bicester Town for Bicester Village?

I would be interested to know how you were fielding lots of questions about which Bicester station they should be travelling to when, until last month, there was precisely one Bicester station that could be reached on a train from Marylebone, which, I assume, was the location of all this intense questioning - how had they managed to get themselves to Marylebone in the first place if they didn't have some idea where they were going?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for the implied criticism of a commercial company making commercial decisions that are in their commercial interest, well shock horror. Whatever next?

It wasn't implied - it was direct, open criticism. I expect the bankers would tell you they were making commercial decisions in their own commercial interest up to 2008. Look where that got us.

And by all means stick up two fingers to the 30,000 people of Bicester, who have been putting plenty of money in Chiltern's pocket every year since 1996, helping to make the company what it is today, but are clearly not as important as Chinese shoppers.

But if something were to happen that saw the supply of Chinese shoppers dry up - say China changes its tax rules on goods bought abroad or reduces tax on 'foreign' luxury goods sold inside China - and increasing revenue earned from Bicester residents suddenly becomes paramount, how sensible would the station name look then? These sudden shifts can happen - the number of Russians visiting the UK and Western Europe generally has fallen steeply since the Ukraine crisis last year.

I'm both baffled and amused by how hot under the collar some people are getting over such a nugatory matter. It isn't going to change in the foreseeable future. Like it or lump it.

I don't doubt we are stuck with the name - that doesn't mean we have to like it and I will feel free to say whatever I want about.

 

[NSEFAN]

It wasn't implied - it was direct, open criticism. I expect the bankers would tell you they were making commercial decisions in their own commercial interest up to 2008. Look where that got us.

And by all means stick up two fingers to the 30,000 people of Bicester, who have been putting plenty of money in Chiltern's pocket every year since 1996, helping to make the company what it is today, but are clearly not as important as Chinese shoppers.

How is the mere station name equivalent to sticking two fingers up at the residents of Bicester? The only actual problem so far has been overcrowding at Bicester North, but those living around Bicester Town/Village station now have trains to London practically on their doorstep. I also don't think a commercially-biased station name is quite comparable to the systematic economic mismanagement and greed that led to the 2008 crash.

Do you think that the regular commuters have some kind of right to a station name? People living in Bicester who work in London have little choice but to use the train. What matters for them is that the service is well run, which in general it is when it comes to Chiltern. Meanwhile, the name of the station can be used to more easily send tourists to Bicester Village on the less crowded Oxford services, freeing up room on the Birmingham ones (although in reality either station would be fine for getting to the retail outlet).

But if something were to happen that saw the supply of Chinese shoppers dry up - say China changes its tax rules on goods bought abroad or reduces tax on 'foreign' luxury goods sold inside China - and increasing revenue earned from Bicester residents suddenly becomes paramount, how sensible would the station name look then? These sudden shifts can happen - the number of Russians visiting the UK and Western Europe generally has fallen steeply since the Ukraine crisis last year.

Markets come and go, it's how the economy works. If the market for Chinese tourists dries up and Bicester Village has to close, the locals will be probably more concerned about the sudden rise in local unemployment rather than the local station name.

 

[jimm]

How is the mere station name equivalent to sticking two fingers up at the residents of Bicester? The only actual problem so far has been overcrowding at Bicester North, but those living around Bicester Town/Village station now have trains to London practically on their doorstep. I also don't think a commercially-biased station name is quite comparable to the systematic economic mismanagement and greed that led to the 2008 crash.

Do you think that the regular commuters have some kind of right to a station name? People living in Bicester who work in London have little choice but to use the train. What matters for them is that the service is well run, which in general it is when it comes to Chiltern. Meanwhile, the name of the station can be used to more easily send tourists to Bicester Village on the less crowded Oxford services, freeing up room on the Birmingham ones (although in reality either station would be fine for getting to the retail outlet).

Markets come and go, it's how the economy works. If the market for Chinese tourists dries up and Bicester Village has to close, the locals will be probably more concerned about the sudden rise in local unemployment rather than the local station name.

How? Because despite all the evidence from consultation, a (very poorly-advertised) public meeting, assorted web polls conducted by the local paper and local groups - and even their own survey with a colossal 100 responses or so from all of 200 questionnaires sent out - it was clear that people in Bicester did not want the station to be named after a shopping centre but Chiltern went ahead and did it anyway.

And that same sort of attitude lies behind the issue of overcrowding from Bicester North, where it appears Chiltern just decided that half of the regular commuters would instantly transfer to the other station and all would be well. But did they ask anyone to find out if that notion would actually be borne out when the big day arrived? Doesn't look like it. Yet the points that I and others have made above about why many people might prefer to keep on using North, not least the road access if driving in from outside the town, are pretty obvious.

Thanks for the lesson in economics and business - I just happen to be of the view that commercial considerations should necessarily outweigh everything else, whether in this case or in banking.

I doubt anyone would be too worried about unemployment if the Chinese stop coming, given that lots of the shoppers aren't Chinese in the first place - but many arrive by car rather than Chiltern's trains from London - and the current unemployment rate in Oxfordshire is 3.7 per cent, well below the national average of 6 per cent, with companies of all sorts constantly complaining they can't recruit staff.

PS: People living in Bicester do have a choice if they want to go to London. It's called the M40, with junction 9 all of two miles down the road.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Do you think that the people of Wandsworth consider it an insult that there is a station called ...Common?
Do you think that the people of Worcester think that the rest of the country believe the town consists of a raised area with a plant on it? (Shrub Hill)
or that it is in fact merely a street (Foregate Street)
Do you think that the people of the older parts of New Mills think that "Newtown" is a misnomer?

These are just a small handful of stations where the name of the town (etc) is supplemented by another word or term that indicates which part of the said town the station is located. And Bicester (Village) is no different.

Perhaps some people need to get over themselves and worry about something important.

And what exactly would be so hard about announcing Bicester Town for Bicester Village?....

And what would be the point? Mountains and molehills, IMO.

How is the mere station name equivalent to sticking two fingers up at the residents of Bicester?

Exactly. How indeed?

 

[NSEFAN]

How? Because despite all the evidence from consultation, a (very poorly-advertised) public meeting, assorted web polls conducted by the local paper and local groups - and even their own survey with a colossal 100 responses or so from all of 200 questionnaires sent out - it was clear that people in Bicester did not want the station to be named after a shopping centre but Chiltern went ahead and did it anyway.

And that same sort of attitude lies behind the issue of overcrowding from Bicester North, where it appears Chiltern just decided that half of the regular commuters would instantly transfer to the other station and all would be well. But did they ask anyone to find out if that notion would actually be borne out when the big day arrived? Doesn't look like it. Yet the points that I and others have made above about why many people might prefer to keep on using North, not least the road access if driving in from outside the town, are pretty obvious.

Thanks for the lesson in economics and business - I just happen to be of the view that commercial considerations should necessarily outweigh everything else, whether in this case or in banking.

I doubt anyone would be too worried about unemployment if the Chinese stop coming, given that lots of the shoppers aren't Chinese in the first place - but many arrive by car rather than Chiltern's trains from London - and the current unemployment rate in Oxfordshire is 3.7 per cent, well below the national average of 6 per cent, with companies of all sorts constantly complaining they can't recruit staff.

PS: People living in Bicester do have a choice if they want to go to London. It's called the M40, with junction 9 all of two miles down the road.

Choice isn't something that everyone can afford. For daily commuting to London, the train will be both quicker and more reliable than driving. In that sense a lot of people are "forced" to use the train. For that reason agree with you that it is unacceptable to cause overcrowding at Bicester North to provide Bicester Town with a service.

But I still don't understand why the station name is so important. Is it that you feel there has been a general disregard for the residents of Bicester altogether, and that the station name is just the icing on the cake?

 

[Andrewlong]

A very good question. I was under the impression that it was really not all that different to "outlet villages" that can also be found at (among other locations) Glasshoughton, Street in Somerset, and Cheshire Oaks. Only one of those has a railway station and I don't see Grand Central being in a rush to divert their services to bring hordes of Chinese tourists there!

Many years ago, it was a discount Outlet mall where shops would offload their excess and seconds stock. When I visited it in August, Bicester Village had been transformed into designer label/bling central - everything the west end of London has to offer without having to walk that far. To get there, a coach picks up from the main hotels, there is a car parking valet service, and not surprisingly Chiltern wants to carry them.

 

[30907]

When this thread started, I assumed it was the retailers of Bicester who feared loss of trade because people would be put off coming to Bicester by the name change.

It now seems to be about the new timetable where services are split between the two stations and London Road (to use the proper heritage name) has arguably the better service.

 

[RPM]

When this thread started, I assumed it was the retailers of Bicester who feared loss of trade because people would be put off coming to Bicester by the name change.

It now seems to be about the new timetable where services are split between the two stations and London Road (to use the proper heritage name) has arguably the better service.

The proper heritage name is simply "Bicester" or "the LNWR station at Bicester" if one needs to be specific

 

[CockneySparrow]

I don't like the Bicester Village station name very much but in business terms it is a no brainer. The bit that grates is "village", because Bicester isn't a village, but the blame for the twee, hammy name lies squarely with the retail outlet, not the railway. For the trugs & trugs of foreign tourists who flock to BV by train, having the station share the name of the retail outlet makes life much easier. I do now think Bicester folks need to get over this. I was initially sympathetic, but really it is a a storm in a teacup.

Agree, with the station named Bicester Village when visitors put in the retail outlet online the station will come up as well in the search, will encourage people or let visitors know they can get there by train

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It now seems to be about the new timetable where services are split between the two stations and London Road (to use the proper heritage name) has arguably the better service.

Surely the proper heritage name would just be plain old "Bicester" which it was known as for significantly longer than it's other three names (Bicester London Road, Bicester Town and Bicester Village) combined?

Getting upset about the name is ridiculous, especially at a station which is now in it's fourth name since the 1950s. I've said it elsewhere on this forum but I think a lot of the frustration about the name of the station is because it's an easy to shoot at frustration in a fairly long list of frustrations caused by Bicester Village's effect on the town and the disruption caused by the current works.

I don't think anyone can deny that the name is a commercial decision or that it was taken with out of towners in mind rather than locals. I also feel it will probably be a thing which blows over in a couple of years and will be completely forgotten about when the whole 'Garden City' project which will almost double the population of Bicester because the new residents won't know any different.

I do feel for those who enjoyed Bicester as a (fairly) quiet town in Oxfordshire which just so happened to have excellent road and rail links to London, Birmingham and Oxford because those days are surely over, but didn't that horse bolt long before the railway station changed it's name again?

 

[RPM]

And what exactly would be so hard about announcing Bicester Town for Bicester Village?

It's just more complicated than it needs to be. Keep it simple.

I would be interested to know how you were fielding lots of questions about which Bicester station they should be travelling to when, until last month, there was precisely one Bicester station that could be reached on a train from Marylebone, which, I assume, was the location of all this intense questioning - how had they managed to get themselves to Marylebone in the first place if they didn't have some idea where they were going?

We were dealing with lots of non-English speakers who weren't sure if Bicester North was the same as Bicester Village. A choice of two Bicester stations, neither of which match the name of the primary destination would have increased the potential and likely confusion. Calling the correct station Bicester Village makes it clear.

And by all means stick up two fingers to the 30,000 people of Bicester, who have been putting plenty of money in Chiltern's pocket every year since 1996, helping to make the company what it is today, but are clearly not as important as Chinese shoppers.

Oh for goodness sake get over it. This is getting childish beyond belief. Of all the issues that we face in the railway industry alone, and you obsess over this footling matter.

But if something were to happen that saw the supply of Chinese shoppers dry up - say China changes its tax rules on goods bought abroad or reduces tax on 'foreign' luxury goods sold inside China - and increasing revenue earned from Bicester residents suddenly becomes paramount, how sensible would the station name look then? These sudden shifts can happen - the number of Russians visiting the UK and Western Europe generally has fallen steeply since the Ukraine crisis last year.

Who said it was just Chinese? In my experience it is a magnet for tourists from Japan, Europe and various Arab nations. A few Brits too. Bicester Village has seen fairly major shifts in demographics in the past, and has nevertheless survived, nay thrived.

I don't doubt we are stuck with the name - that doesn't mean we have to like it and I will feel free to say whatever I want about.

No, you don't have to like it. I don't either, but I know it makes sense.

 

[CockneySparrow]

The main difference between Bicester Village and the likes of London Designer Outlet is the brands.

Bicester offers Armani, Burberry, Calvin Klein, Dolce & Gabbana, Dior, Gucci, TAG Heuer and Versace, to name but a few, whereas London Designer Outlet offers Adidas, Claires Accessories, Gap, H&M, Hallmark, Holland & Barrett, M&S and Next...Not exactly the same league!

I am guessing that you have never been down Regent Street in London

 

[Andyjs247]

The name sucks. But we are where we are and in my opinion we can't go back to "Bicester Town". However neither should it stay as "Bicester Village" - that is just wrong.

It should be just "Bicester" as it was before 1910. You can still have your announcements in Arabic, Chinese etc that say "Bicester Village", the official name in English should be straightforward "Bicester"

Oh and by the way I understand someone has flattened the station sign. Been like it for a few days - probably an accident. Let's just say that nobody seems particularly upset about it...

 

[cjp]

How is the mere station name equivalent to sticking two fingers up at the residents of Bicester? The only actual problem so far has been overcrowding at Bicester North, but those living around Bicester Town/Village station now have trains to London practically on their doorstep. I also don't think a commercially-biased station name is quite comparable to the systematic economic mismanagement and greed that led to the 2008 crash.

Just back from a weekend in Bicester and not raising the name issue a couple residents pointed out that they live in a town called Bicester not a village of the same name. And were not happy.
And two regular travellers to Oxford have, for now at least, stopped using the train and use the X5 bus to Oxford instead. The old train service was fine and busitution worked well but travelling to Oxford Parkway and changing to slower bus from there tales longer than the express bus which also saves then £10 per month. They may change back when the line is finished

 

[Radedamer]

How about 'Bicester Town for Bicester Village'?

 

[route:oxford]

With the tantrums in Wolvercote, Jericho & North Oxford and the tantrums in Bicester...

Has the considerable improvements to this line resulted in the greatest number of "ruined lives" by comparison to any other recent rail investment?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am guessing that you have never been down Regent Street in London

I have, which is why I was comparing Bicester Village with London Designer Outlet, Freeport Braintree, Ashford Designer Outlet, Junction 32 and the like, rather than Regent Street.

 

[Mojo]

In Wembley there is London Designer Outlet, with Wembley Stadium Station being the closest and it does get mentioned in the Chiltern on-board auto announcements. Not sure how popular it is though (I'd never heard of it until a cousin asked if I wanted to go, and the one in Bicester I first found mentioned on here in one of the previous threads on this controversy).

I go there every now and again, usually on a weekday when it's completely dead. I even went on a Saturday when a 'One Direction' concert was going on at Wembley Stadium, and it was still dead. As CyrusWuff says, it's nowhere near as good as Bicester Village, and I think it's worse than the McArthur Glen outlets, but better than, say, the Lowry in Salford. It's probably in the same league as Freeport in Braintree.

 

[Clip]

I am guessing that you have never been down Regent Street in London

And all at higher prices than the village hence why people want to go to the village.
:roll:

 

[kieron]

Just out of interest, how many people did object to the change?

I presume the formal period to do so has finished, but an organised campaign should have been able to get quite a few more objections than Chiltern's pollsters predicted. While it's just a consultation, getting a lot of people to write that they don't like what Chiltern has done would have given them something to think about.

This late in the day, they'd be more interested in why you didn't contact them earlier.

 

[Andyjs247]

As per opening post, it was a done deal before it was announced. The consultation was a joke. Chiltern Railways just ignored the concerns of eg our MP, also Bicester Town Council and OBRAG to name but a few. They also didn't consult with members of the East West Rail consortium.

However I'm curious as to why now Chiltern Railways has only just put details of the rather dubious survey on their website, ie just in the last few days. I have complained to Network Rail but am still awaiting their formal response...

At least 800 people signed a petition against the name change...

 

[The Planner]

Why complain to NR? I would imagine we are fairly ambivalent about it all if its cost neutral.

 

[DarloRich]

my god this has to be the most parochical complaint ever! Such utter drivel.

 

[Andyjs247]

Why complain to NR? I would imagine we are fairly ambivalent about it all if its cost neutral.

Well I'd hope NR would be neutral as infrastructure owner. But you're also in a position to check if any proposal for renaming is indeed sensible, has merit, and doesn't present any issues. Do you blindly accept every proposal without checking? Also who is there to represent EWR interests?

And is it really cost neutral? How much time and ££ has been spent? Why can't every business that wants one have their own station renamed after them?

 

[tbtc]

The way I see it is...

People who live or work there or who otherwise use it frequently will know what it is, where it is, and how best to use it, even if it was called Launton West. Name largely irrelevant.

Which leaves the infrequent user. It makes perfect sense to me for the Railway to try and draw the Chinese Tourist from London (and anyone else for that matter) to use the train to reach the hugely popular outlet mall by naming the station after it. There are several stations quite rightly named after nearby "draws" - mentioned above is MetroCentre; likewise Meadowhall (although that is also the name of the area) and so on.

To give a South Yorkshire perspective...

Meadowhall is the name of *an* area - I'd describe it as being in Rotherham - the other side of Meadowbank from the shopping centre.

If you wanted to give the train station a geographically appropriate name then I'd guess it'd be Tinsley or Wincobank. Maybe even East Hecla (since that was the name of the steelworks that the shopping centre is built on), or Brightside (which is the name of the old station by Jenkin Road, which would have probably been closer to the "Argos" end of the shopping centre than the modern station is).

But, the shopping centre went with the nicer sounding name of Meadowhall (Wincobank sounding less attractive as a name?), so it's right that the station reflects that.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter that much to locals what you call a station, since they'll use it regardless - the question is whether the name should be something that people travelling to the station will recognise.

Same goes with the idea of naming the Metro Centre "Swalwell" or "Whickham" - it may be more geographically accurate for those living there but anyone travelling to the big shopping place will want the security of the station sharing a name with the Metro Centre.

Same goes with the idea of naming a station (on heavy rail or light rail) after a University, sports stadium etc - Rowley's Green may be a more accurate name for the station at Coventry Arena, but people travelling to an event are going to want the station to reflect the name of the Arena (as long as there's sufficient capacity to cater for demand ).

In which case, it makes sense to me that the station for Bicester Village is called, erm, Bicester Village. That's simply where people heading there will be wanting it to be called. It may not be the heart of the old village, it may ruffle a few feathers from those who lived there before the shops opened, but it's a name that will help most passengers (and hinder very very few).

Speaking of the passengers, I wonder if some of the reaction towards the renaming is more about a certain sniffiness about those passengers (and the lengths they'll go to for designer handbags)? And I say this as someone who's been round Glasshoughton/ Cheshire Oaks (and that place near Mansfield) a few times, and was quite surprised at how upmarket the Bicester Village was - expecting the same old array of out-of-date rejects from M&S/ Sports Direct/ Next To Nothing etc - it's a whole different league in Bicester

Good on Chiltern for developing this contra-peak market that attracts people out of London in the morning too - attracting people other than the regular Marylebone-bound commuters. Wish other TOCs were as proactive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good on Chiltern for developing this contra-peak market that attracts people out of London in the morning too - attracting people other than the regular Marylebone-bound commuters. Wish other TOCs were as proactive.

But at the expense of the quality of service for those commuters. There are now two stations with the existing service split between them. This does not make it easier, particularly if one station would be convenient for the morning and the other to the evening, unless one travels to the station on foot, which is unlikely to be the majority.

I don't care what the station is called - I do care that it, like many things Chiltern has done in its quest to change from a regional/commuter to an InterCity operation, has made the change to the significant detriment of the existing service.