Bi-modes on Merseyrail?

[deltic]

How feasible would it be to operate bimodes to extend Merseyrail services to allow through services to Preston via Ormskirk, Wigan via Kirkby and Wrexham via Bidston given that it is unlikely an extension to 3rd rail will ever happen?

 

[Whistler40145]

Presumably you mean to rejoin the lines up at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Bidston to enable through working using bimode units?

 

[Ken H]

How feasible would it be to operate bimodes to extend Merseyrail services to allow through services to Preston via Ormskirk, Wigan via Kirkby and Wrexham via Bidston given that it is unlikely an extension to 3rd rail will ever happen?

sounds like a good idea. Preston and wigan are probably close enough for battery rather than diesels

 

[deltic]

Presumably you mean to rejoin the lines up at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Bidston to enable through working using bimode units?

Yes, even Network Rail cant charge more than a few million for that although signalling may be a major issue

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes, even Network Rail cant charge more than a few million for that although signalling may be a major issue

Presumably you mean a difference in the signalling systems on MerseyRail and Network Rail?

 

[Meerkat]

Are any of those extensions needed in full as all three destinations have/will have much better alternative ? Wouldn’t the following be more logical....
Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, and Southport-Preston to create a new direct service.
Kirkby to Skelmersdale, With Manchester services also going into Skelmersdale.
Bidston to Shotton, leaving the rest to TfW

 

[deltic]

Are any of those extensions needed in full as all three destinations have/will have much better alternative ? Wouldn’t the following be more logical....
Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, and Southport-Preston to create a new direct service.
Kirkby to Skelmersdale, With Manchester services also going into Skelmersdale.
Bidston to Shotton, leaving the rest to TfW

Keeping it simple will reduce costs and more likelihood of being delivered

 

[deltic]

Presumably you mean a difference in the signalling systems on MerseyRail and Network Rail?

Does that cause a problem with operations? I was thinking more of the cost of signalling needed or moving of existing signalling if the connections were reinstated

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are any of those extensions needed in full as all three destinations have/will have much better alternative ? Wouldn’t the following be more logical....
Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, and Southport-Preston to create a new direct service.
Kirkby to Skelmersdale, With Manchester services also going into Skelmersdale.

You mean I guess Burscough Bridge but yes I completely agree.

 

[M28361M]

Presumably you mean a difference in the signalling systems on MerseyRail and Network Rail?

The only difference in signalling systems in in the underground sections where LU-style tripcocks are used instead of TPWS, so any train working through the tunnels would have to be fitted with that system. I assume deltic was referring to the cost of reinstating through lines at Ormskirk and Kirkby which would require alterations to signalling as well as track.

I believe at least one 777 will be fitted with batteries as a trial. I think the intention is to test it on the non-electrified Ellesmere Port-Helsby line.

 

[Chester1]

The only difference in signalling systems in in the underground sections where LU-style tripcocks are used instead of TPWS, so any train working through the tunnels would have to be fitted with that system. I assume deltic was referring to the cost of reinstating through lines at Ormskirk and Kirkby which would require alterations to signalling as well as track.

I believe at least one 777 will be fitted with batteries as a trial. I think the intention is to test it on the non-electrified Ellesmere Port-Helsby line.

Batteries are definitely more likely than bi modes as long as the trial is not a disaster. Bi modes would mean new stock alongside the new fleet. Kirkby to Skelmersdale or Wigan and Ormskirk to Burscough or Southport would be fine with battery units. Is there the demand for Burscough to Preston? Who would pay? It would be an 1 hour 6 minutes with current so either the journey time would need to be cut by 10 minutes or a large number of units be fitted with batteries. Ormskirk-Southport would act as a slower alternative to the existing overcrowded route. The journey would probably be 7-8 minutes longer.

 

[Meerkat]

When will the Merseyrail electrification need renewing? Is there a way of staging extensions on AC that rolls into renewing at least the surface bits with AC, or would it need too many extension leads?

 

[furnessvale]

Presumably you mean to rejoin the lines up at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Bidston to enable through working using bimode units?

Merseyside will not allow this to happen. When given the chance they couldn't move fast enough in severing those connections. Now they have their self contained railway they are not readily going to open themselves up to importing delays etc from off their network.

 

[krus_aragon]

Merseyside will not allow this to happen. When given the chance they couldn't move fast enough in severing those connections. Now they have their self contained railway they are not readily going to open themselves up to importing delays etc from off their network.

I can't speak for the first two, but the latter (Bidston-Wrexham) is as self-contained as you can reasonably get. Other than two or three freight workings a week (Wrexham-Dee Marsh), it's just two units shuttling back and forth all day. There isn't even any scope for platform conflicts at Wrexham General: they've got their own ones.

 

[Meerkat]

i can’t think of any reason Merseyrail would want to go Bidston to Wrexham. They are funding Halton curve to go to Wrexham aren’t they? The Bidston route would be very slow and a long way on an urban unit. I could see them going to Shotton, but that would need (expensive) new stations to be worthwhile to them, and would also risk just stealing traffic that currently changes onto their trains at Chester.

 

[krus_aragon]

i can’t think of any reason Merseyrail would want to go Bidston to Wrexham. They are funding Halton curve to go to Wrexham aren’t they? The Bidston route would be very slow and a long way on an urban unit. I could see them going to Shotton, but that would need (expensive) new stations to be worthwhile to them, and would also risk just stealing traffic that currently changes onto their trains at Chester.

It's not just about going to Wrexham, it's also about giving places all along the Borderlands Line a more frequent, direct service to Liverpool.
(I doubt that there are that many passengers that currently take the 1tph Shotton-Chester and change there for the Wirral Line: that route is typically 20 minutes slower than changing at Bidston.)

I personally suspect that there'll be some co-operative operation of through services on this route, as opposed to just TfW or only Merseyrail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

i can’t think of any reason Merseyrail would want to go Bidston to Wrexham. They are funding Halton curve to go to Wrexham aren’t they? The Bidston route would be very slow and a long way on an urban unit. I could see them going to Shotton, but that would need (expensive) new stations to be worthwhile to them, and would also risk just stealing traffic that currently changes onto their trains at Chester.

Halton Curve is nothing to do with Wrexham, it's about Liverpool Lime St to North Wales.

 

[Meerkat]

It's not just about going to Wrexham, it's also about giving places all along the Borderlands Line a more frequent, direct service to Liverpool.
(I doubt that there are that many passengers that currently take the 1tph Shotton-Chester and change there for the Wirral Line: that route is typically 20 minutes slower than changing at Bidston.)

South of the Dee isn’t Merseyrail’s problem, and is surely too far to travel on their trains?
I was thinking more of traffic from North Wales changing at Chester - do they currently change twice via Shotton and Bidston then?

Halton Curve is nothing to do with Wrexham, it's about Liverpool Lime St to North Wales.

Sure I read that the idea was Liverpool to Llandudno and Wrexham/Shrewsbury? Admittedly I can’t find a source for that.....but it would be odd to go to Chester and not carry on to the rather significant regional centre in Wrexham.

 

[Ianno87]

Bi-modes (with diesel engines) going through the central Liverpool tunnels might not be straightforward.

Even though the diesel engine may be 'off', it is still conveying fuel and may be hot in temperature from a previous run, creating all sorts of fire safety and ventilation requirements that the tunnels may not be designed/adaptable for at sensible cost.

 

[krus_aragon]

South of the Dee isn’t Merseyrail’s problem, and is surely too far to travel on their trains?
I was thinking more of traffic from North Wales changing at Chester - do they currently change twice via Shotton and Bidston then?

Travellers from North Wales Coast (as opposed to Hawarden-Wrexham) will travel via Chester at the moment. Only 1tph from the NWCL calls at Shotton, and the connections are non-existent with the Borderlands' 1tph. When frequencies improve with the new rolling stock, it may become a practical option, but there'll also be a Llandudno-Lime St service via the Halton Curve by then, and most travellers east of Llandudno will probably opt for the through service.

Sure I read that the idea was Liverpool to Llandudno and Wrexham/Shrewsbury? Admittedly I can’t find a source for that.....but it would be odd to go to Chester and not carry on to the rather significant regional centre in Wrexham.

You're absolutely right: hourly Lime St to Chester, splitting for Llandudno and Shrewsbury (extending in alternate hours to Cardiff) is the long-term plan for the franchise, and is well publicised. Until the new rolling stock arrives, it'll just operate to Chester, with a few extensions per day to Wrexham.

But @Bletchleyite 's point about Halton and Wrexham is broadly true. Restoring through services along the North Wales Coast to Merseyside was the major driving force. And the way TfW are going about things mean that there'll also be through services along the Marches to South Wales. Wrexham benefits as well, but the Halton Curve wasn't essential for Wrexham's improvements: one could improve services via Bidston instead.

(Incidentally, at Wrexham, the hourly services to Chester and Bidston combine to give a half-hourly service toward Liverpool, taking ~1hr10 and 1hr20 respectively. That's the reason connections at Shotton are so awful.)

 

[Narom]

I thought Merseytravell, and by default Merseyrail, have already announced some soft intention to use battery powered trains in a few years time with potential to run Southport-Preston with the reopening of the Burscough curves?

 

[markindurham]

Reopening of the Burscough curves has been talked about since the early 70s. Don't hold your breath, I fear

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reopening of the Burscough curves has been talked about since the early 70s. Don't hold your breath, I fear

They would make such a difference to public transport in West Lancashire.

 

[markindurham]

They would make such a difference to public transport in West Lancashire.

They would indeed - but there is no political will to do it

 

[Narom]

Reopening of the Burscough curves has been talked about since the early 70s. Don't hold your breath, I fear

True. But I can see some logic with present arguments after the introduction of new trains. It's not reliant on the line being electrified to match the Merseyrail network and it's signalling differences but "just" the laying of new track.