My daughter's boyfriend, travelling on Arriva Valley Line for the first time, arrived at Caerphilly station, just as a (late) train arrived. As he approached the ticket window, the guy behind the window said "get on the train". He didn't see a guard on the train, and on arriving at Cardiff central went to queue to pay, but was approached by the ticket enforcement guy and subsequently threatened with prosecution. He has been offered a deal whereby he pays £69.50 to avoid court proceedings. SO - beware of entrapment policy of ARRIVA!
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Beware of Entrapment
- Thread starter JacobElis
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
If what you say is true*, I would not pay it.
Ensure he is represented by a competent solicitor in court, if it goes that far.
In the meantime, send a suitably worded letter informing them that he will be represented in court and will contest the charges vigorously. Ensure the letter is proof read by a suitable person before sending it. Enclose a cheque for the correct fare (nothing more, nothing less) assuming this has not yet been paid. They may cash the cheque and pick a different battle.
In order to provide proper advice, we'd need to be aware of the full circumstances and what exactly was said and done.
(* I'm not suggesting it isn't true, but sometimes people do provide inaccurate, incomplete or misleading info here occasionally.. We can only provide advice based on what we are told, and therefore advice will only be appropriate in circumstances where it is accurate. I therefore offer advice on the basis that what I've been told is true, unless I have information to doubt it).
Ensure he is represented by a competent solicitor in court, if it goes that far.
In the meantime, send a suitably worded letter informing them that he will be represented in court and will contest the charges vigorously. Ensure the letter is proof read by a suitable person before sending it. Enclose a cheque for the correct fare (nothing more, nothing less) assuming this has not yet been paid. They may cash the cheque and pick a different battle.
In order to provide proper advice, we'd need to be aware of the full circumstances and what exactly was said and done.
(* I'm not suggesting it isn't true, but sometimes people do provide inaccurate, incomplete or misleading info here occasionally.. We can only provide advice based on what we are told, and therefore advice will only be appropriate in circumstances where it is accurate. I therefore offer advice on the basis that what I've been told is true, unless I have information to doubt it).
If this is true then I wouldn't pay. If they haven't already, they need to write to Arriva laying out exactly what happened and attach a cheque or postal order for the fare due.
But avoid using emotive terms such as "entrapment" - keep it entirely factual.
Agreed.
Just to add I'd also agree you should avoid making any sort of complaint in this letter. Once the matter is fully resolved, then you could make a complaint about the way he was treated. You could also report Arriva to the Department for Transport and Regulation of Rail & Road, but they both don't appear to really care about customers. It may be worth a try though.
You can also seek assistance from Transport Focus
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Does the Dept of Transport have any jurisdiction in Wales? I thought their powers had been devolved.
Technically, they would have to show that there was no reason to believe that permission was given - the standard of proof in criminal cases is 'beyond reasonable doubt'.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It isn't deliberate entrapment, it's incompetence. Staff need to stop doing that if they do not have the authority to do so. It is not helpful. But staff still do it all over the place. I did for example hear a member of LM staff at Bletchley (forget who) state that "you can just pay on the train on that line, don't worry about it" to someone in a rush. I bet if the guard hadn't been able to do tickets for any reason the notoriously picky GTR RPIs at Bedford wouldn't have gone for that one! (Though to be fair I have never known tickets *not* be done on the Marston Vale).
I would say we have reached the point that the old adage of "ask the guard" is no longer acceptable - but guards still do give non-written authority to travel. To me, the rules should change such that such authority may ONLY be given in writing with an authorising stamp.
Personally I would give serious consideration to fighting this one in Court with good (paid) legal help if (as Yorkie correctly points out) things are all as stated.
Last edited:
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I can see why it feels like entrapment. You are told one thing and accept it in good faith, only for the company to try and prosecute you for it. Both they and you know that proving "the man in the ticket office" said it is impossible. And whilst you shouldn't be convicted if there's reasonable doubt, plenty of liars also use that line and it doesn't work for them.
Good luck with Arriva: you'll need it.
Good luck with Arriva: you'll need it.
EM2
Established Member
Hmmm. When I've got 700 football fans queuing, and then all my TVMs go down, so we tell them to buy on board or at destination, I really don't have time to be doing that.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 5,296
To add a little bit of chapter and verse to the good advice that has already been given, the reason why lots of people here think you could argue the point and win is because the National Rail Conditions of Travel say at Condition 6.3 that
The National Conditions of Travel here use much the same words as byelaw 18(3)(iii).
So since your daughter's boyfriend was told that he could travel, everything's fine? Well, no. If the matter ended up in court, the court would have to decide if they believed his story. Strictly, it is up to the prosecution (the railway) to prove their side, but ultimately it would come down to the court having to decide which was the truth - your daughter's boyfriend's story ('the man in the ticket office said it was OK just to get on the train') or the railway clerk's story ('I don't remember ever saying to anyone that they could hop on the train'). Of course, if the railway clerk confirms that he gave permission to travel, at that point you are home and dry.
The National Conditions of Travel here use much the same words as byelaw 18(3)(iii).
So since your daughter's boyfriend was told that he could travel, everything's fine? Well, no. If the matter ended up in court, the court would have to decide if they believed his story. Strictly, it is up to the prosecution (the railway) to prove their side, but ultimately it would come down to the court having to decide which was the truth - your daughter's boyfriend's story ('the man in the ticket office said it was OK just to get on the train') or the railway clerk's story ('I don't remember ever saying to anyone that they could hop on the train'). Of course, if the railway clerk confirms that he gave permission to travel, at that point you are home and dry.
Can he recall the appearance and/or accent of the member of staff who authorised him to board? Can he recall what time he entered the station?
The more details available to back up the story, the more believable it'll be. Anything he can remember should be written down (ideally both on paper and in a Word document).
Furthermore, if this wasn't too long ago, it may be worth him speaking to the staff member in the ticket office in a polite and non-accusational manner and asking whether they recall the conversation (unlikely, but possible).
If anybody else was with him at the time who could corroborate his story, it would be worth speaking to them also.
The more details available to back up the story, the more believable it'll be. Anything he can remember should be written down (ideally both on paper and in a Word document).
Furthermore, if this wasn't too long ago, it may be worth him speaking to the staff member in the ticket office in a polite and non-accusational manner and asking whether they recall the conversation (unlikely, but possible).
If anybody else was with him at the time who could corroborate his story, it would be worth speaking to them also.
And to reply to the condition that I think you are quoting for - you would have to be sure that the said person was authorised to allow travel without a valid ticket.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
A guy walked in yesterday and asked about direct trains to Haverfordwest as his car had broken down the 1441 to BHM INTL rolled in 30 seconds later....
I more or less bundled him on it without a ticket and told him to buy off the guard. The next train was not till 1641, he had 3 hours to Cardiff from here and then to get to West Wales.
OK were not in the Valleys but I did the bloke a flavor and used some common sense.
I more or less bundled him on it without a ticket and told him to buy off the guard. The next train was not till 1641, he had 3 hours to Cardiff from here and then to get to West Wales.
OK were not in the Valleys but I did the bloke a flavor and used some common sense.
CharlieSpotted
Member
- Joined
- 21 May 2014
- Messages
- 975
I think the point is, you only "did the bloke a favour" if the guard is definitely going to be OK with selling him a ticket. If he isn't, then you may have made his day even worse...
Only if Gareth Marston subsequently developed amnesia about the whole incident. Otherwise it should be a minor inconvenience at worst.
EM2
Established Member
Exactly what we would do. There are processes in place which negate the necessity for written and stamped authorisation.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The Conductors do sell on the Cambrian even to Newtown passengers who board when were open so hopefully he got home OK at reasonable time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Except that demonstrably is not how TOC prosecution departments and RPIs work.
If the passenger would have to do any more than tell the barrier staff he was told to get on board anyway, then it isn't OK for anyone to tell him to board without providing written authority. A threat of prosecution is not acceptable.
With modern communications technology it should be really easy to establish if said authorisation was given on the spot. And people who cannot give it like cleaners, employees of other TOCs etc should be sure never to say anything that could ever be construed as such.
Last edited:
I had a while as a ticket office clerk and just ask, how long does it now take to pick up a blank receipt, stamp it with a station stamp (if available) and write 'See guard for ticket' - adding your date and your name will confirm authority under National Railways Byelaw 18.3 [2005].
Any RPI will then be in no doubt that the traveller has been given authority to pay on train.
Yes, I agree that with a big event and TVM failure and/or excessive queues it is impracticable, but a quick call by a clerk to Retail or to the Operations Control to advise 'I've had to let XXX number board the XX.XX hours service at XXXXXXXXX without tickets to avoid further delays' will achieve the same effect.
Any RPI will then be in no doubt that the traveller has been given authority to pay on train.
Yes, I agree that with a big event and TVM failure and/or excessive queues it is impracticable, but a quick call by a clerk to Retail or to the Operations Control to advise 'I've had to let XXX number board the XX.XX hours service at XXXXXXXXX without tickets to avoid further delays' will achieve the same effect.
andrewkeith5
Member
A thought on reading some of the comments here. Given that the conversation in this case happened at the ticket office, would it not be worth requesting the CCTV from the day (which IIRC can be done as a Data Protection Act request if you want, or as part of the case if needs be), which would at least prove that a conversation took place, and with the correct angle and/or audio (do those microphones record?) potentially even record the result of the conversation?
As a judge/jury, definitive evidence that the defendent visited the ticket office and conversed with them instead of just running straight for the train would surely create sufficient doubt in the argument that they had no intention to pay?
As a judge/jury, definitive evidence that the defendent visited the ticket office and conversed with them instead of just running straight for the train would surely create sufficient doubt in the argument that they had no intention to pay?
It's extremely unlikely that audio was recorded, and I doubt the quality would be good enough to do anything fancy like lipreading.
Depending on the body language of the ticket office clerk it *might* be enough to introduce reasonable doubt, but generally speaking CCTV is a bit of a red herring.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Assuming Arriva prosecutions bother themselves to ask Gareth, should it ever get that far.
We see that so often with Transport Investigations, you can write anything to them and they'll just ignore you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, that's why my view is that prosecutions and appeals should go via a statutory enforcement process and independent body for all TOCs, not an "inside job" as it is now.
In my view TOCs should themselves have the simple choice of either charging the Anytime Single for the journey made, giving a statutory penalty fare (only, not a fixed settlement offer, and all appeals to be via the independent body and binding on the TOC), or reporting to that body for it to decide what is done. They have proven themselves not to be trusted to do more than that.
Last edited:
EM2
Established Member
CCTV should not be used to record audio, under the Data Protection Act -
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/29/cctv_convo_recording/
EM2
Established Member
It would take a lot longer for me to walk along a queue handing out coupons, than to open the gates, do a PA announcement in the station and then ring Control.
Last edited:
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Have to admit it's a slightly different world up here. The conductors on the Cambrain do come round , our 4 car formations are connected. The man presented himself to get a ticket and was unsure of how to get to Haverfordwest by rail im pretty sure he would have made himself known to the Conductor when they came round.
- Status