Better public timetables to reflect reality

[markymark2000]

Given that we already have 2 different timetables for railways in the UK, the Working Timetable and Great British Timetable, why aren't we using the public (great british) Timetable to show better train departure times.

There are many instances on the railway where the times just don't add up. The first instance being 'doors close upto [seconds] before departure'. Some of these stations show 2 minutes. 2 minutes is excessive but that's another thread, why are we promoting a train leaving at 12:15 then if last boarding is 12:13. Shouldn't we be advertising it as the 12:13 train. While this will upset some passengers who will be on the train thinking the train is running late, they will be much surprised to see that they are still running on time and they get to their destination on time (which is the overall most important point) but this would significantly reduce the number of instances where people turn up on the platform, 1 minute before departure, only to find the doors locked and them being left there waving off the train that they wished to catch. This is even more important given that door closure information often isn't noted anywhere online, only normally one or two signs in a station which is a bit too late.

The other instance would be lines with request stops. Lines such as the Cambrian seem to have their timetables based off trains stopping at every single request stop and so as soon as a train doesn't stop somewhere, it passes through consecutive stops early. This is absolutely useless to passengers having a 12:15 train go through the station at 12:10, infact, it's barbaric. Why is this even happening? Public timetables should show earliest possible times for the train arriving at the station so that passengers can be there, safe in the knowledge that the train hasn't gone through minutes earlier. They are there, at the station, ready and waiting for the train. Of course this causes other issues as if a train stops, it becomes then technically late for subsequent stops but this is something that can't be helped. You either have someone arriving a few minutes later than scheduled or you leave people on the platform without any clue that the train went through, possibly 3-5 minutes earlier. I write this mostly with the Cambrian Coast in mind. There was one instance, it was a few months ago so it's not on real time trains anymore where a service did go through stations 6 minutes early before then waiting time at one of the mandatory stops which is out of order.


Both instances show people being left on the platform as a result of following the timetable and changes to the public timetable would significantly reduce the number of people being left on platforms either waving their train off of not knowing if it went early. It's better to have people sat on the platform complaining about a train being slightly late (according to the public timetable) than have them turn up for the scheduled time and find out they have missed it.

 

[The Planner]

Given that we already have 2 different timetables for railways in the UK, the Working Timetable and Great British Timetable, why aren't we using the public (great british) Timetable to show better train departure times.

There are many instances on the railway where the times just don't add up. The first instance being 'doors close upto [seconds] before departure'. Some of these stations show 2 minutes. 2 minutes is excessive but that's another thread, why are we promoting a train leaving at 12:15 then if last boarding is 12:13. Shouldn't we be advertising it as the 12:13 train. While this will upset some passengers who will be on the train thinking the train is running late, they will be much surprised to see that they are still running on time and they get to their destination on time (which is the overall most important point) but this would significantly reduce the number of instances where people turn up on the platform, 1 minute before departure, only to find the doors locked and them being left there waving off the train that they wished to catch. This is even more important given that door closure information often isn't noted anywhere online, only normally one or two signs in a station which is a bit too late.

The other instance would be lines with request stops. Lines such as the Cambrian seem to have their timetables based off trains stopping at every single request stop and so as soon as a train doesn't stop somewhere, it passes through consecutive stops early. This is absolutely useless to passengers having a 12:15 train go through the station at 12:10, infact, it's barbaric. Why is this even happening? Public timetables should show earliest possible times for the train arriving at the station so that passengers can be there, safe in the knowledge that the train hasn't gone through minutes earlier. They are there, at the station, ready and waiting for the train. Of course this causes other issues as if a train stops, it becomes then technically late for subsequent stops but this is something that can't be helped. You either have someone arriving a few minutes later than scheduled or you leave people on the platform without any clue that the train went through, possibly 3-5 minutes earlier. I write this mostly with the Cambrian Coast in mind. There was one instance, it was a few months ago so it's not on real time trains anymore where a service did go through stations 6 minutes early before then waiting time at one of the mandatory stops which is out of order.


Both instances show people being left on the platform as a result of following the timetable and changes to the public timetable would significantly reduce the number of people being left on platforms either waving their train off of not knowing if it went early. It's better to have people sat on the platform complaining about a train being slightly late (according to the public timetable) than have them turn up for the scheduled time and find out they have missed it.

We have done the first one to death a number of times. In your example above, if it show it as 12.13, where does the door closing sequence become part of that? do they close at 12.13 or 12.12½?

In the case of request stops, is that really the case? just looking at some of the Cambrian trains yesterday, no trains were anywhere near as early as you suggest at request stops. I would be asking any drivers on here how they deal with them. It also re-opens the endless debate on what is considered a reasonable time for a passenger to be on the platform before their train.

 

[AM9]

Given that we already have 2 different timetables for railways in the UK, the Working Timetable and Great British Timetable, why aren't we using the public (great british) Timetable to show better train departure times.

There are many instances on the railway where the times just don't add up. The first instance being 'doors close upto [seconds] before departure'. Some of these stations show 2 minutes. 2 minutes is excessive but that's another thread, why are we promoting a train leaving at 12:15 then if last boarding is 12:13. Shouldn't we be advertising it as the 12:13 train. While this will upset some passengers who will be on the train thinking the train is running late, they will be much surprised to see that they are still running on time and they get to their destination on time (which is the overall most important point) but this would significantly reduce the number of instances where people turn up on the platform, 1 minute before departure, only to find the doors locked and them being left there waving off the train that they wished to catch. This is even more important given that door closure information often isn't noted anywhere online, only normally one or two signs in a station which is a bit too late.

The other instance would be lines with request stops. Lines such as the Cambrian seem to have their timetables based off trains stopping at every single request stop and so as soon as a train doesn't stop somewhere, it passes through consecutive stops early. This is absolutely useless to passengers having a 12:15 train go through the station at 12:10, infact, it's barbaric. Why is this even happening? Public timetables should show earliest possible times for the train arriving at the station so that passengers can be there, safe in the knowledge that the train hasn't gone through minutes earlier. They are there, at the station, ready and waiting for the train. Of course this causes other issues as if a train stops, it becomes then technically late for subsequent stops but this is something that can't be helped. You either have someone arriving a few minutes later than scheduled or you leave people on the platform without any clue that the train went through, possibly 3-5 minutes earlier. I write this mostly with the Cambrian Coast in mind. There was one instance, it was a few months ago so it's not on real time trains anymore where a service did go through stations 6 minutes early before then waiting time at one of the mandatory stops which is out of order.


Both instances show people being left on the platform as a result of following the timetable and changes to the public timetable would significantly reduce the number of people being left on platforms either waving their train off of not knowing if it went early. It's better to have people sat on the platform complaining about a train being slightly late (according to the public timetable) than have them turn up for the scheduled time and find out they have missed it.

Maybe timetables should show a time that passengers need to be on the departure platform, which may be 3 or 4 minutes before actual departure. Any time after that would not guarantee an ability to board the train. Is that what the you want?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Maybe timetables should show a time that passengers need to be on the departure platform, which may be 3 or 4 minutes before actual departure. Any time after that would not guarantee an ability to board the train. Is that what the you want?

As a passenger, that sounds good to me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a passenger, that sounds good to me!

Yes. The whistle should be blown and the bat raised (or the close button pressed where there aren't dispatchers) on the dot of the departure time shown in the public timetable, or if some other barrier will be put in place e.g. at Euston it should be that.

What is in the working timetable is not the concern of the passenger.

 

[markymark2000]

We have done the first one to death a number of times. In your example above, if it show it as 12.13, where does the door closing sequence become part of that? do they close at 12.13 or 12.12½?

12:13 is just the time shown to passengers. As far as staff are concerned, the actual departure time is still 12:15 and the train should be dispatched for a 12:15 departure.

Advertising some trains, I stress, SOME trains, earlier would kick people into action.

In the case of request stops, is that really the case? just looking at some of the Cambrian trains yesterday, no trains were anywhere near as early as you suggest at request stops. I would be asking any drivers on here how they deal with them. It also re-opens the endless debate on what is considered a reasonable time for a passenger to be on the platform before their train.

It hasn't happened in the past week as far as real time trains show but unless you have internal systems which show the actual passing time, it's difficult to work out the exact passing time. as I say, it was a few months ago when it happened but I can't find data for then via Real time Trains.

As for 'reasonable time', just advertise to the passengers the earliest that the train could arrive so they are on the platform ready for when the train could pass through. There is no point in telling everyone to be at the platform x amount of minutes early because then where does that end? It'll become like an airport where we start telling people to be at the train station 30 minutes before departure just to get through ticket office queues and whatever. For me, this is not about telling people to be at the station so long before their train is due, it's about making sure people don't miss trains because it has gone through early or because someone, somewhere has decided that doors should be shut earlier. It's ludicrous that doors shut 2 mins before departure anyway, 1 minute is more than sufficient, that's another point though.

 

[zwk500]

Advertising some trains, I stress, SOME trains, earlier would kick people into action.

Some, e.g. Avanti already are.

For me, this is not about telling people to be at the station so long before their train is due, it's about making sure people don't miss trains because it has gone through early or because someone, somewhere has decided that doors should be shut earlier.

The issue here is that if people are expecting a train to depart at 12.13 then it sits there for 2 minutes they'll start complaining about why the railway told them to be so early.

It's ludicrous that doors shut 2 mins before departure anyway, 1 minute is more than sufficient, that's another point though.

Not ludicrous at large stations where the train needs to be made ready before the signallers can set the route, and the route needs to be set promptly to allow an on time departure.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The issue here is that if people are expecting a train to depart at 12.13 then it sits there for 2 minutes they'll start complaining about why the railway told them to be so early.

So put a note at the head of each timetable: 'times shown are the latest you will be able to board the train'.

Similarly for request stops, the timetable should show the earliest time the train will be at the station, but add a note to the timetable: 'Request stop: train may call up to 5 minutes after the time shown'.

 

[ARIC]

So put a note at the head of each timetable: 'times shown are the latest you will be able to board the train'.

Similarly for request stops, the timetable should show the earliest time the train will be at the station, but add a note to the timetable: 'Request stop: train may call up to 5 minutes after the time shown'.

Surely a better option is a blanket door closing/boarding close time across the network, with *this* being advertised on all timetables and in more places. At locations where a longer time isn't necessary, train crew and dispatchers can simply start the dispatch process slightly later so that a locked train isn't just sitting on the platform. Wheels should roll on the departure time, the clue is in the name. And that's universal across transport, from planes to coaches to trains.

Having staff and passengers working on two completely different timetables, when the only way to identify trains to the public in the UK is by their departure time, is a layer of confusion we just don't need.

It just needs good communication to provide a shift in behaviour - I bet you any of these "left on the platform" passengers could tell you what time they'd arrive at the airport for a flight, and it certainly wouldn't be 60 seconds before take-off. They're given guidance on when to arrive, but never an explicit time to be at the airport. The railway can be exactly the same.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Having staff and passengers working on two completely different timetables, when the only way to identify trains to the public in the UK is by their departure time, is a layer of confusion we just don't need.

As I understand it, it's what we already have - public timetable (by time) versus working timetable (by what may be a different time, plus headcodes)

 

[AM9]

Were this no a railway enthusiast social media site, it's very unlikely that there would be any conversation about 'working timetables', so given that the WT is a real thing and is needed to operate the trains to the public timetable, the public should be given a single time which is the last opportunity to board. What happens after that is part of the time to get to the destination, (and more importantly that train's part in every other service getting to their respective destinations on time). Providing the train leaves and arrives between those times given to the public, the rest is nothing to do with the passenger.
If the time for the journey suits the passenger, then that's all that they need to know to travel. That places an extra responsibiliity on the railway to perform to those times and no getout of blaming late boarding passengers.

 

[ARIC]

As I understand it, it's what we already have - public timetable (by time) versus working timetable (by what may be a different time, plus headcodes)

But at present, frontline, customer facing railway staff work on only one, the public timetable. A train being both a 09:13 and a 09:15 departure isn't currently something train crew and platform staff have to navigate.
Instead everyone works towards the same time - the time the train is supposed to depart, the departure time. The current system asks passengers to also respect this as a departure time, not a last boarding time, as is the case on all forms of transport.

The big difference between the railway and the other prime example of departure times being different to last boarding times, air travel, is that the railway is not very good at letting people know how much time to give. It's different per station, it's often only advertised at the station itself, and it isn't something most people would be able to tell you off the cuff. It's just not in the public psyche.

That's all that needs to change - "on the platform (say) 3 minutes before" to be as well known as "at the airport 2 hours before". A rail network-wide standard and a marketing campaign would be far easier to implement and cause less issues than literally replacing all departure times with a dummy, pretend time to try and trick passengers into...getting to their train on time

 

[SargeNpton]

For any aspect of life where you are given a time you should always be looking at being there sufficiently in advance of that: Dentist's appointment, court appearance, theatre performance, ferry sailing, holiday flight, meal out with friends at a restuarant, and so on.

To turn up at the last minute is not just impoilte but could lead you to miss whatever it is you have been booked in for.

Catching a train is just the same. That published time is when it leaves, not the time when you decide to saunter onto the platform.

 

[30907]

The CWL/HoWL between Knighton and Llanwrtyd, and the Cambrian Coast from Barmouth to Harlech, are the only sections where there are more than 2-3 consecutive request stops
I have found one example of slightly excessive (3-4min) early running
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y93313/2022-09-09/detailed#allox_id=0
and that suggests that the standard practice of a 1min differential between public and working times needs revisiting - or perhaps the (over?) enthusiastic driver of the train concerned needs a reminder

(That said, I wonder what the average number of passengers is on that train.)

.

 

[Llanigraham]

The CWL/HoWL between Knighton and Llanwrtyd, and the Cambrian Coast from Barmouth to Harlech, are the only sections where there are more than 2-3 consecutive request stops
I have found one example of slightly excessive (3-4min) early running
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y93313/2022-09-09/detailed#allox_id=0
and that suggests that the standard practice of a 1min differential between public and working times needs revisiting - or perhaps the (over?) enthusiastic driver of the train concerned needs a reminder

(That said, I wonder what the average number of passengers is on that train.)

.

On that line the locals know that things don't always run that accurately so are sensible enough to arrive at the stations well in time. I'm sure I have seen signage that state to arrive atleast 5 minutes before the due time.

 

[30907]

On that line the locals know that things don't always run that accurately so are sensible enough to arrive at the stations well in time. I'm sure I have seen signage that state to arrive atleast 5 minutes before the due time.

... which is similar to what appears in some bus timetables.

 

[skyhigh]

But at present, frontline, customer facing railway staff work on only one, the public timetable. A train being both a 09:13 and a 09:15 departure isn't currently something train crew and platform staff have to navigate.

Are you sure about that?

Our dockets can show that a train is advertised to depart 1, 2 or 3 minutes before the actual departure time.

 

[miklcct]

Surely a better option is a blanket door closing/boarding close time across the network, with *this* being advertised on all timetables and in more places. At locations where a longer time isn't necessary, train crew and dispatchers can simply start the dispatch process slightly later so that a locked train isn't just sitting on the platform. Wheels should roll on the departure time, the clue is in the name. And that's universal across transport, from planes to coaches to trains.

This is not universal. The domestic ferry departure times in Hong Kong are all shown as "gate closing time", where the dispatch process is after it.

It should be made universal that the dispatch process is considered part of the running time, i.e. after departure. In concrete terms, when planning trains, the dispatch process is included in calculating the running time between stations and forms the basis of the timetable.

That's all that needs to change - "on the platform (say) 3 minutes before" to be as well known as "at the airport 2 hours before".

I'd say that it's the airline industry needs to change, rather than the opposite. I only tolerate the "30 seconds before departure time" (or 1 minute for buses) rule as a legacy before the era of synchronised clocks, and this needs to be abolished as soon as practical.

In an ideal world, all departure times should be the latest time a passenger can board the vehicle, and a train which has been dispatched should be considered as "departed".

 

[30907]

Are you sure about that?

Our dockets can show that a train is advertised to depart 1, 2 or 3 minutes before the actual departure time.

The WTTs even have (had?) a set of lower-case letters to cover it.
It's nothing new either - the biggest I know of was 7min at Wareham on a summer Saturday, while the BR(S) paper trains had a 5min differential for years.

 

[skyhigh]

The WTTs even have (had?) a set of lower-case letters to cover it.

Yes, that's exactly what's on our dockets still.

 

[Bletchleyite]

... which is similar to what appears in some bus timetables.

In my view interpolating times at stops between timing points (which is when you see this) is wrong. The time shown should be that of the previous timing point, and if the result is ridiculous e.g. buses always 10 minutes "late" then that says the route does not have enough timing points.

At least GPS tracking means most buses do now seem to wait for time at timing points rather than ragging round as fast as possible.

 

[markymark2000]

On that line the locals know that things don't always run that accurately so are sensible enough to arrive at the stations well in time. I'm sure I have seen signage that state to arrive atleast 5 minutes before the due time.

That's fine then. As long as locals know what is going on, stuff everyone else. If I only travelled on my local line where I know exactly how it operated, I wouldn't get around much of the UK. People move about so someone new to the area or tourists will not know the system.

... which is similar to what appears in some bus timetables.

In my view interpolating times at stops between timing points (which is when you see this) is wrong. The time shown should be that of the previous timing point, and if the result is ridiculous e.g. buses always 10 minutes "late" then that says the route does not have enough timing points.

At least GPS tracking means most buses do now seem to wait for time at timing points rather than ragging round as fast as possible.

Times for stops between timing points can still be put in manually if the 'estimated' times generated by the system are way off. Just takes someone to notice it though. Generally though, given the rules are a timing point at least every 15 minutes (except express services), the times shouldn't be too far off. If they are too far off, that's because the bus operator is lazy and generally hasn't timed the route correctly, that's another topic for the bus and coach areas though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes. The whistle should be blown and the bat raised (or the close button pressed where there aren't dispatchers) on the dot of the departure time shown in the public timetable, or if some other barrier will be put in place e.g. at Euston it should be that.

What is in the working timetable is not the concern of the passenger.

Agreed, the GBTT departure time should be the second the door-close button is pressed (or access to the platform closed off in your Euston example). The door close procedure shouldn't take longer than 30 seconds in most cases, so the GBTT departure time can be 12:14 and the WTT depature time can be 12:14.5 by which time the train will hopefully be able to start moving.

12:13 is just the time shown to passengers. As far as staff are concerned, the actual departure time is still 12:15 and the train should be dispatched for a 12:15 departure.

this is not about telling people to be at the station so long before their train is due, it's about making sure people don't miss trains because it has gone through early or because someone, somewhere has decided that doors should be shut earlier. It's ludicrous that doors shut 2 mins before departure anyway, 1 minute is more than sufficient, that's another point though.

Agreed, it should be 45 seconds at most but the WTT is currently planned on 30 second increments so we cannot allow 45 seconds at the moment.

Some, e.g. Avanti already are.

The issue here is that if people are expecting a train to depart at 12.13 then it sits there for 2 minutes they'll start complaining about why the railway told them to be so early.

Not ludicrous at large stations where the train needs to be made ready before the signallers can set the route, and the route needs to be set promptly to allow an on time departure.

If it's really necessary for the doors to be locked shut for that long before an on-time WTT departure then play an announcement explaining this to the passengers, including the fact that the doors are locked shut and they would have missed their train, but in alot of cases is it really necessary? Better on be on the train complaining that they had to be on it 'early' than to be on the platform complaining they can't board because the doors are locked.

It just needs good communication to provide a shift in behaviour - I bet you any of these "left on the platform" passengers could tell you what time they'd arrive at the airport for a flight, and it certainly wouldn't be 60 seconds before take-off. They're given guidance on when to arrive, but never an explicit time to be at the airport. The railway can be exactly the same.

A flight is generally a very different proposition to a train service (other than Eurostar). Reservations are normally mandantory on a plane and, you need to allow time for staff to load any hold-baggage and, for international flights (and Eurostar) there is all the border security stuff as well. Mosts airports will also have the facilities to keep you warm, dry, fed and watered while you wait as well. Many stations (and probably the vast majority of bus stops) don't offer anything like this.

But at present, frontline, customer facing railway staff work on only one, the public timetable. A train being both a 09:13 and a 09:15 departure isn't currently something train crew and platform staff have to navigate.

Surely some staff work on the WTT, otherwise why does it even exist? If anyone uses the WTT then there are (or were a few years ago) certainlly trains which are both the XX:25 (GBTT) and the XX:20 (WTT) arrival at a terminus station like Aberystwyth.

The big difference between the railway and the other prime example of departure times being different to last boarding times, air travel, is that the railway is not very good at letting people know how much time to give. It's different per station, it's often only advertised at the station itself, and it isn't something most people would be able to tell you off the cuff. It's just not in the public psyche.

That's all that needs to change - "on the platform (say) 3 minutes before" to be as well known as "at the airport 2 hours before".

I guess you have a point there, that would help but I still think using the fact that the WTT has fractional minutes to avoid the whole 'train doors are locked 30 seconds before departure' thing by timing the train to depart 30 seconds after the public departure time would be better. At an airport, is the departure time the time the plane leaves the gate or the time the wheels leave the ground?

For any aspect of life where you are given a time you should always be looking at being there sufficiently in advance of that: Dentist's appointment, court appearance, theatre performance, ferry sailing, holiday flight, meal out with friends at a restuarant, and so on.

To turn up at the last minute is not just impoilte but could lead you to miss whatever it is you have been booked in for.

Catching a train is just the same. That published time is when it leaves, not the time when you decide to saunter onto the platform.

That feels a bit 'car culture' to me. If you're using public transport to get around, you cannot necessarily leave an optimum amount of time due to the limitations of the timetable. Sometimes, your only option is to turn up at the last minute or be left starving, freezing and bursting for the loo for hours waiting for the next train at some windswept hell-hole of a station or bus stop where you were required to change. The railway needs to recognise that, not assume that everyone is driving their own car to the station, and give passengers the maximum amount of time possible to board in case they are (for example) trying to connect off a bus that is running late.