Better bus links in London

[NorthKent1989]

Particularly in SE London, I was thinking about the route 129 which is unusually short, it would be a good idea if it was extended to Camberwell or Vauxhall via Lewisham, New Cross & Peckham, there doesn't appear to be many links between Camberwell & other parts of SE London like Blackheath, Greenwich & Woolwich.

Another thing I'm surprised TfL haven't done yet is extending the 202 from Blackheath Royal Standard to North Greenwich which would be a very good link between Crystal Palace, Sydenham & Catford with North Greenwich

Another potentially useful routes and links that are needed in London

 

[plcd1]

Particularly in SE London, I was thinking about the route 129 which is unusually short, it would be a good idea if it was extended to Camberwell or Vauxhall via Lewisham, New Cross & Peckham, there doesn't appear to be many links between Camberwell & other parts of SE London like Blackheath, Greenwich & Woolwich.

Another thing I'm surprised TfL haven't done yet is extending the 202 from Blackheath Royal Standard to North Greenwich which would be a very good link between Crystal Palace, Sydenham & Catford with North Greenwich

Another potentially useful routes and links that are needed in London

North Greenwich bus stn can't cope with current peak demand. It's unlikely TfL would add to the stress there and certainly not during a period of massive construction as the Peninsula sees further redevelopment. The bus station is going to be flattened and replaced anyway but that's probably 10-15 years away. Don't hold your breath for any improvements here in the near future.

TfL will be rejigging buses in SE London due to Crossrail (consultation due soon) and also in response to pressures in Rotherhithe and Bermondsey (network development plan is on the TfL site). None of these add much in terms of new links - it is all about trying to cope with demand using shorter routes and with minimal uplift in resource levels. There is simply no money for grandiose schemes - all the funding has been ripped away because of the fares freeze and plunging patronage / fare revenue.

TfL seem to be hoping against hope that there will be some recovery in 2018 (some planned enhancements have been postponed until then) but I don't see where this alleged recovery is going to come from given wider economic pressures which will only hit London area employment thus causing further decline in revenue.

 

[CatfordCat]

With the flexibility of Travelcard / Oyster, especially now that the 'hopper' fare finally exists, allowing the sort of transfer journeys that the LCC Tramways offered with bell punch technology about 100 years ago, and the increasing slowing of traffic and therefore bus speeds, the number of people who want to make long 'direct' journeys by bus is limited.

There will never be a bus network that can offer direct journeys from everywhere to everywhere else, and in London, bus services often act as feeders for railway / underground lines.

In terms of the specifics, the south of Camberwell is close to Denmark Hill station, which has direct SE Trains services to Blackheath, with a further change at Lewisham offering DLR to Greenwich or other SE Trains services to Woolwich. Alternatively, the Overground offers trains (also from the Sydenham area) to Canada Water then Jubilee Line to N Greenwich.

Then of course there's the question of how much of a destination North Greenwich is (apart from events at whatever the dome is called now) - yes, a lot of bus services go there, but I'd expect a lot of the traffic is feeding in to the Jubilee line for onward travel.

Resources are being reduced already - at the moment it's fairly low key - bus frequencies are being reduced and routes cut back rather than outright withdrawals of routes, but I can only see it getting worse.

I'd say that the impending withdrawal of central government funding to TFL is going to have a bigger impact than the fares freeze...

I'm not sure who announced what first, but can't help thinking if a different party's London mayoral candidate had been elected, then the new mayor would have been able to 'negotiate' a deal with the treasury...

 

[Busaholic]

If it was considered necessary for Greenwich and Woolwich to be connected with Camberwell/Vauxhall directly then I'd suggest an extension of the 177 from Peckham would suffice.

As for the 202 extension, I could see that being used a bit in the peaks by some travelling from Blackheath Village and Lee, but from Sydenham and Crystal Palace, very few. After all, the predecessor to the 202 in those places was the 108B, and before that the 108 plain, and they went to North Greenwich via Lewisham and Blackheath. I remember little through traffic, and I lived in the area and went to school there. As Catford Cat says, the Overground would take care of the people bound for Canary Wharf, etc.

Actually, one connection that has never existed, to my amazement, is a 'main road' one between Brixton and Lewisham i.e. via Camberwell, Peckham and New Cross - no wonder the P4 minibus was instantly successful and became a permanent part of the big bus network. An extension of the 345 from Peckham to Lewisham would seem in order to me - even the train is not able to stop at Brixton!

 

[NorthKent1989]

How about more orbital express routes?

You could have an inner, centre and outer ring of overlapping routes,

The inner ring route is for central London, the centre route could be along the south circular road (Woolwich to Clapham and Catford to Chiswick

And the outer routes could be related to the X26, maybe a Sutton to Bexleyheath route
And a Kingston to Uxbridge, and overlapping routes along the North Circular.

While there are good, connecting radial routes, orbital routes are needed to connect outer suburban town centres

 

[telstarbox]

Which town centres specifically?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Which town centres specifically?

Bexleyheath to Sutton, Kingston to Uxbridge, Ruislip to Barking etc

 

[telstarbox]

How much daily demand do you think there is between Bexleyheath and Sutton? Who would use such a bus when it would take much longer than the current 90 minutes by train (changing at Victoria)?

 

[NorthKent1989]

How much daily demand do you think there is between Bexleyheath and Sutton? Who would use such a bus when it would take much longer than the current 90 minutes by train (changing at Victoria)?

Its mainly about opening up new corridors, for instance someone in Chislehurst may work in Sutton, or someone travelling between Wallington and Bromley etc
The 726 was successful years ago and very useful in linking outer south London urban centers something which is missed in these areas.

 

[telstarbox]

There are 13 people in Chislehurst who work in the London Borough of Sutton (according to the last Census, data attached).

7 of them use a car or motorbike and 2 get the train. That leaves 4 who might get the bus - not really enough for a regular service.

The 726 had declining passenger numbers for many years, against a background of rising car ownership.

 

[Busaholic]

There are 13 people in Chislehurst who work in the London Borough of Sutton (according to the last Census, data attached).

7 of them use a car or motorbike and 2 get the train. That leaves 4 who might get the bus - not really enough for a regular service.

The 726 had declining passenger numbers for many years, against a background of rising car ownership.

One of the reasons why the 725/726 Green Line routes were well-used on their Eastern sections into the 1980s was the lack of satisfactory 'red bus' connections between Bexleyheath, Chislehurst and Bromley. Before the 269 was created, you had to get a 229 from Bexleyheath to Sidcup, then a 228 to Chislehurst and a 227 from there to Bromley. Neither the 228 nor 229 were very frequent, so only the most determined would choose that option. It was obviously deliberate policy to help preserve the 725/6 at a time when the orbital Green Line routes were going into freefall and, with the odd exception, were unsustainable. The 725/6 were also quite popular on the Bromley to Croydon routeing, as the 119 took (and still takes) the long way round via Hayes - now there's a route that could do with some peak express buses, back into West Croydon bus station.