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Benefits of 3rd rail?

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GB

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Also when the workmen are working on electryfied third rail lines. How close do they actually get to the rails? Do they have to step over live rails, or do they have specified gaps with no rails where they can walk accross the track? Or do they just turn the rail off on the sections where they are working?

They can get very close, often less then 0.5m depending on the task. They have special insulated tools that minimise the risk of getting shocked.

If you wanted to cross the line while the third rail was still energised you would use a foot crossing, level crossing, bridge or break in the CRE where possible. However there isnt always one close by so stepping over live rail would usually be necessary.

You would generally only turn off the power in connection with major or emergency engineering works or some kind of other emergency situation.
 
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DJ_K666

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3rd rail is everywhere round here. It`d probably be way too expensive to convert to OHLE. Maybe in the way way distant future but not as yet.

Basingstoke to Reading would be a sensible one though as well as Southampton - Salisbury.
 
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Merseyrail

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They can get very close, often less then 0.5m depending on the task. They have special insulated tools that minimise the risk of getting shocked.

If you wanted to cross the line while the third rail was still energised you would use a foot crossing, level crossing, bridge or break in the CRE where possible. However there isnt always one close by so stepping over live rail would usually be necessary.

You would generally only turn off the power in connection with major or emergency engineering works or some kind of other emergency situation.

Gosh I think that would freak the hell out of me having to work that close to the third rail and stepping over it and stuff. Certainly not a job I could do.

I mean on most lines were there's at least two tracks the third rails are adjacent two each other and very close together - there must be hardly any chance for error?

And what about LU lines where there's a fourth rail together with a narrower gauge track. There must be hardly any space for manouver in between those rails?

Having lived all my life on a diesel line I used to get sligthly nervous as a kid when standing on platforms where the line was third railed. Probably sounds a bit soft but I think the phobia was brought on by a holiday I had when young in Budapest when we were waiting an extremely long time for a Metro train only to find the emergency services rushing down the escalaters as a person had fallen on the track at the next station I beleive. It really scared me as a kid but I'm OK these days though.
 

SouthEastern-465

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Gosh I think that would freak the hell out of me having to work that close to the third rail and stepping over it and stuff. Certainly not a job I could do.

I mean on most lines were there's at least two tracks the third rails are adjacent two each other and very close together - there must be hardly any chance for error?

And what about LU lines where there's a fourth rail together with a narrower gauge track. There must be hardly any space for manouver in between those rails?

Having lived all my life on a diesel line I used to get sligthly nervous as a kid when standing on platforms where the line was third railed. Probably sounds a bit soft but I think the phobia was brought on by a holiday I had when young in Budapest when we were waiting an extremely long time for a Metro train only to find the emergency services rushing down the escalaters as a person had fallen on the track at the next station I beleive. It really scared me as a kid but I'm OK these days though.

I live on the southern,and It Is quite dangerous and some times It Is used by vandals and chavs,they throw newspapers on the 3RD rail and It causes fires which cause disruption,but on the other hand they are more reliable then over head wires which are always having problems.

But I know what you mean by being scared of It,there was a dog my mate was walking It got on the line and was electrocuted like hell but his was due to a train coming the otherway,but otherwise I think It wouldnt of been as bad but still dead,but my dog got threw a fence at Grove Park Traction And Maintenence Depot and she put her paw down gently on It and she got a shock but survived I dont know how though,but these days I aint frightened of It at all but thats because Its there everyday,I feel sorry for people who live near overhead wires and fall/or pushed off a bridge a fried like a pancake and have no cance what so ever.
Regards
 

GB

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Treat it with respect and it really is no different to stepping over any other line.

Technically with 3rd rail you can actually walk along it if you like (I wouldnt recommend though;)) Its when you put one foot down and ground yourself thats going to cause you problems.

With regards to CRE being more reliable than OHLE, well thats open to interpretation as each has its own advantages and disadvantages.
 

90019

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And what about LU lines where there's a fourth rail together with a narrower gauge track. There must be hardly any space for manouver in between those rails?

The track is the same gauge, but I think they always turn it off where people are working.

Also, isn't the centre rail actually a negative voltage? Or is that just relative to the third rail?
 

Merseyrail

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The track is the same gauge, but I think they always turn it off where people are working.

Also, isn't the centre rail actually a negative voltage? Or is that just relative to the third rail?

Yes apparently the centre rail on LU is minus 200 something volts but I'm sure I've seen sparks come from it when the trains have been driving over it?

So would the centre rail not electricute you then?
 

jopsuk

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Yes, the centre is negative (-210V nominal I think?)- apart from on the sections shared with NR services, where it is held at zero volts and bonded to the running rail for traction return. The outside rail is usually +420V- on the NR shared section it is +630V- so the Potentail difference between third and fourth remains the same.

When it comes to killing you, mind, it matters not, whether the power rail is postive or negative with respect to you
 

DaveNewcastle

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Yes, the centre is negative (-210V nominal I think?)- apart from on the sections shared with NR services, where it is held at zero volts and bonded to the running rail for traction return. The outside rail is usually +420V- on the NR shared section it is +630V- so the Potentail difference between third and fourth remains the same.

When it comes to killing you, mind, it matters not, whether the power rail is postive or negative with respect to you

Correct. But it DOES make a difference whether you're making contact between 2 adjacent rails ( 200 or 400v) or between the 2 power rails (600/700v).

There has been a safety requirement for years about power plant on construction and maintenance site which require voltages to be split like this so that pos and neg are either side of the earth, reducing the effect of a short or other contact between a conductor and an earthed person .
 

yorksrob

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I did read somewhere that DC current as used on the 3rd rail is more efficient for quick accelleration and decellaration whereas AC is better for maintaining high speeds. Can anyone verify this?
 

jopsuk

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I'm not sure- but some DC units have AC motors (via invertors) and some AC units have DC motors (via rectifiers)- obviously, Dual Voltage units have to be able to work at least one of these ways round!
 

DaveNewcastle

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I did read somewhere that DC current as used on the 3rd rail is more efficient for quick accelleration and decellaration whereas AC is better for maintaining high speeds. Can anyone verify this?

Not really, but the key to your question might be in the one word "efficient".
There are great losses in rail transmissrion systems (lineside transformers, the length of the overhead or rail conductors and all the connections) and there are also great losses in vehicle power systems (the regulators, power conversion between AC & CD, ballast resistances etc).
Frankly, I wouldn't say eith of these are "efficient".

Different stock use different processes for their power conversion so I couldn't generalise on the benefits for traction, but ...
there are real benefits of high voltage AC on long distance supplies such as long stretches of track between power drops from the grid - there is much less leakage to ground at high voltage.
I can't see why DC (or 3rd rail is any better at providing power on demand (acceleration) though.
But perhaps one of the main differences isn't AC or DC but the 40 times increase in voltage between DC and AC systems.
In fact, one of the pressing reasons for the Netherlands Spoorwagen to convert their entire infrastructure and all their rolling stock from DC to AC was that when several locos tried to take power at the same time in the same area (lets call it accelleration), then they all flopped into a modest slouching movement in which nothing much seemed to move fast anywherel! -In that case, there is a lot of DC demand over a lot of infrastructure, and when you add in the losses within the trains (ballast resistances etc) then there simply isn't much voltage left to power any motors!
The higher voltages of AC systems still leave plenty of volts available even after lots of other traffic (parallel loads in electrical engineering) and lots of infrastructure (series loads).

(You can rely on me to take the bait of any electrical question!)
 

yorksrob

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Thanks Dave, thats pretty comprehensive - unless someone comes up with an argument for DC.....
 

Skie

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I do remember hearing about new DC trains down south drawing so much power when starting off that all sorts of problems were caused for the other units in the area.
 

CosherB

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All modern units use AC motors, as the line current (be it AC or DC) is 'chopped' electronically by solid state drive systems into an AC waveform of variable frequency to drive the AC motors synchonously at the required speed.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I do remember hearing about new DC trains down south drawing so much power when starting off that all sorts of problems were caused for the other units in the area.

Yes, but this problem can arise with AC supplies too - its just that when you take into account all the factors in the whole network, then a high voltage AC system with a reasonably adequate supply at its source is going to be more robust that a low voltage DC system, and will be more likely to deliver the power to where its required, and when.
There is a good track record of power droops in many UK stations when AC services are departing at simultaneously (but not as bad as at Amsterdam Centraal under DC power).
Sadly, both have horrendous losses in both the infrastructure and in their motor control circuits, to the extent that some "green" arguments suggest that electric power of the railways has no environmental benefit at all (but that's another discussion!)
 

bangor-toad

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Thanks Dave, thats pretty comprehensive - unless someone comes up with an argument for DC.....

OK, I'll have a go...

One of the fundamental issues around AC power is the choice of wire. Believe it or not, you cannot effectivelty use iron as the conductor wire - it really does need to be copper.
Why? It's all to do with what's called the "Skin Effect". The maths is excitingly complex but what it means is that for 50Hz AC power, the current flows in the edge of the wire rather than the middle. For Copper at 50Hz the thickness of the skin is about 8mm. (For iron it's about 1mm) Therefore once you exceed a Copper wire 16mm in diameter then you just cannot get more current down it by making the wire fatter. This limits the amount of current you can deliver and it means that you can't have lots of high current draw (ie acceleration) in an AC system.

DC on the other hand doesn't have the same issues. The current capacity of a wire/rail is depandant on it's size. The current will flow more or less evenly throughout the entire rail. There are also far fewer issues to do with the metal used in the 3rd rail - here you can use iron. This is important as it's much harder and can take more frequent wear than Copper wire can. Providing the power supply (ie substations) can handle it, the DC 3rd rail can deliver more peak acceleration. That's why in the past metro systems have used 3rd rail systems rather than OHLE.


Of course, modern control and electronics can overcome many issues (but not the skin effect!) and now other issues such as what's already there and nearby predominate.

Cheers,
Jason
 

DaveNewcastle

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OK, I'll have a go...
Great ! Good for you!
The maths is excitingly complex but what it means is that for 50Hz AC power, the current flows in the edge of the wire rather than the middle. For Copper at 50Hz the thickness of the skin is about 8mm. (For iron it's about 1mm) Therefore once you exceed a Copper wire 16mm in diameter then you just cannot get more current down it by making the wire fatter. This limits the amount of current you can deliver and it means that you can't have lots of high current draw (ie acceleration) in an AC system.
Hah! You're right that the maths are interesting - but you won't produce a black-and-white result of "you just cannot get more current". You do. But the conductivity is progressively degraded, it doesn't hit a brick (copper?) wall. In power distribution systems the solution is to run parallel lines a few cms apart. In rail systems, we can take advantage of some prior knowledge about how the load is distributed across the electrical sections (eg max 6 trains or 20MW or whatever per section) and provide separate feeders and transformer to each. This is exactly what we do. With additional power cables running along the track to the next "section".

DC on the other hand doesn't have the same issues.
Er, Doesn't have the same ISSUE singular. Most of the problems of leakage, losses, flashover and conductor impedances are very very comparable. Switching has to be different, and corrosion is VERY different (and very significant - but you didn't raise that factor).

The current capacity of a wire/rail is depandant on it's size. The current will flow more or less evenly throughout the entire rail. There are also far fewer issues to do with the metal used in the 3rd rail - here you can use iron. This is important as it's much harder and can take more frequent wear than Copper wire can.
Now I'm really enganged! I think we've just begun to confuse Overhead vs 3rd rail with AC vs DC. Third rail and its power delivery connections are going to corrode in a completely different way to overhead DC of the same voltage. Just as copper and iron corrode differently. And sure, you can put up with a few mms loss on a big fat rail more than an o/h conductor, and change the pickup on either rail quite quickly and cheaply, BUT when you compare AC vs DC you are introducing 5 factors: Direct vs Alternating, conductor material, friction with vehicle pick-ups, voltage, and where the power is "transformed" (quote marks 'cos some traction converts on way and some the other and I think some transforms then chops it back again). But . . .
The BIG reason for switching from DC to AC in "the old days" was voltage. You can transmit the same power as a DC network over MUCH smaller and lighter cable with AC and then transform it down to the required voltage where its needed. And this is exactly what the rail network covering an entire coutry needs - long distance power distribution.
You just CANNOT distribute DC over large distances.
Providing the power supply (ie substations) can handle it, the DC 3rd rail can deliver more peak acceleration. That's why in the past metro systems have used 3rd rail systems rather than OHLE.
But only if the power reaches them, as high voltage AC.
In fact I can't see that this conclusion follows from your arguments!
The Metro systems are local - the need to distribute power is minimal.
The "peak accelleration" is simply the required current, and the designed voltage, with minimal losses introduced to the traction system. If you manage to get the designed current to the vehicle, it should perform correctly. If you can't, then its because the local network has too many local losses, either in the infrastructure as you've suggested, or in user demand (other trains and water on the conductors etc), all of which can be, AND SHOULD BE, designed out of the supply system.
Of course, modern control and electronics can overcome many issues (but not the skin effect!) and now other issues such as what's already there and nearby predominate.
Agreed. But I don't agree that the distribution "problems" should be passed on to the designers of train electrics. I maintain tht the most effective power distribution system is AC (not necc. 50Hz but it works ok) and high voltage. I also maintain that the delivery to the rail network should be very localised (eg independant drops to the local voltage at less than 10kms in dense urban networks and much more in high speed/intercity sections) but the final drop from distribution network to train? It shouldn't matter - its got to be safe, reliable and maintainable, losses must be accepted if they're a requirement of a safe network and a maintainable network.
Both AC and DC seem to have reasonably comparable records in safety (though I am not adequately informed or qualified to assert this). Maintenance of DC includes the corrosion issue. Maintenence of either includes a transformer somewhere or other. On a stanchion or on a train? Is it THAT a big factor?

In conclusion - the "skin effect" is a challenge easily surmountable and one which international electrical power distribution networks have dealt with quite adequately.
(Now, shall we argue next about nuclear-powered trains, or bio-gas turbines or transporting coal by electric trains powered by coal? Tee Hee)[
 
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DavyCrocket

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The track is the same gauge, but I think they always turn it off where people are working.

Also, isn't the centre rail actually a negative voltage? Or is that just relative to the third rail?

It's just as easy to step over LU track - there's loads of space in the four foot!

Traction Current is turned off to all sections at close of traffic. There are times when it will be turned off in the daytime such as depots for engineering work or on a running line in case of a failure which requires staff to go and work on the track (where it is up to them) or as a means of protection.
 
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