BEMUs - Fire risk?

[rower40]

Following the fire near Glasgow Central station this week, it's got me thinking...
a: the fire could have been so much worse, and might have caused the station to burn. Fortunately it didn't.
b: the fire, when small, was un-put-out-able thanks partly to the lithium batteries in the vape shop

In the next few years, the number of trains carrying significant weights of traction battery will ramp up substantially. If these were stranded in a burning station, they would greatly increase the amount of fuel available to the fire, and generally hinder the fire's extinguishability (Oh I like that word). Would it now be appropriate to re-evaluate the emergency evacuation procedures in that situation - i.e. get any Battery-EMUs out of the area as a priority?

With the exception of the Ladbroke Grove fire (where the diesel fuel escaped under pressure from a fractured fuel tank) there haven't been too many rolling stock fires (please correct me if I'm wrong) since the elimination of Gas lighting. But batteries might change that?

Discuss...

 

[The exile]

There have been loads of rolling stock fires - most of them not particularly serious.

 

[stevieinselby]

With the caveat that electric cars and buses are on average younger than petrol and diesel cars and buses, the evidence so far seems to be pretty clear that EVs are at lower risk of catching fire than ICE vehicles (despite what some fearmongering media outlets would have you believe), so I don't see any reason to think it would be different with trains.

Assuming that there isn't a fault on the train causing the fire, how bad would the fire around the train have to be to ignite the train and batteries? How often do we have fires that bad at stations?

 

[SynthD]

Disposable vapes are poorly made and barely regulated, vehicle batteries are the extreme opposite. They may even have different chemistry, while lithium batteries have relatively easy thermal runaway, lithium-ion, various lithium-something, sodium and other options coming in are far safer. I hear sodium batteries can’t have a thermal runaway event at all but let’s see more research for that grand claim.

 

[stuu]

Diesel engines/generators under trains catch fire all the time. Try searching the word fire in the forum search tool

 

[pdeaves]

Rolling stock design includes crazy amounts of fire protection/retardant features. Battery behaviour will be infinitely better than many of the things passengers carry in their pockets!

 

[MarkyT]

If all the EMUs had at least an emergency-sized battery pack, they might have been moved out of the station even with the traction power switched off. I assume there was a total isolation of the station area supply.

 

[The exile]

I suppose a repeat of the Ayr depot fire might be quite spectacular if large batteries were involved but that was 40 years ago and I don’t think there’s been a repeat performance in the interim.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's important to remember that while electric batteries might be less likely to catch fire compared to diesel generators, lithium batteries are harder to extinguish once they do catch fire. Therefore we shouldn't get complacent and build rolling stock with proper fire protection and giving firefighters the necessary equipment they need to manage it in the worst case scenario.

In a sense lithium battery fires can be compared to nuclear energy in the sense that, with the right procedures in place, they can be incredibly safe and efficient, but when accidents do occur they can be potentially disastrous if proper precautions and procedures aren't in place. But so far BEMUs seem to be doing a decent job as it is, and I hope we can keep it that way until proper full electrification.

 

[MarkyT]

It's important to remember that while electric batteries might be less likely to catch fire compared to diesel generators, lithium batteries are harder to extinguish once they do catch fire. Therefore we shouldn't get complacent and build rolling stock with proper fire protection and giving firefighters the necessary equipment they need to manage it in the worst case scenario.

In a sense lithium battery fires can be compared to nuclear energy in the sense that, with the right procedures in place, they can be incredibly safe and efficient, but when accidents do occur they can be potentially disastrous if proper precautions and procedures aren't in place. But so far BEMUs seem to be doing a decent job as it is, and I hope we can keep it that way until proper full electrification.

Steam boilers are a better analogy. Awfully dangerous in the early days, they improved rapidly in capability and safety as they became ubiquitous in transport and industry.

I think EMUs all carrying at least moderate onboard storage is a huge opportunity even for fully electrified railways, for emergency isolations for example, but also to allow larger gaps in complex areas and to enable extremities and secondary lines to avoid continuous wiring. Batteries are here to stay, and they will drive more wiring.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Agree with others. In regards to Vapes, it is a poorly regulated industry with often cheaply made, poorly insulated wiring and materials that enhance the fire risk. Whilst we can't be complacent, I see no issue if correct regulation is in place. There are similar arguments about electric bikes, and actually if you have, say, a Cube bike with Bosch motor and battery, all highly regulated and certified, then there is a minor risk in comparison to a e-bike conversion kit bought on Amazon with a battery strapped on to a normal bike with duct tape and wires hanging everywhere. The technology GWR have been trialling, I believe, has highly stable and reliable batteries with a good chemistry designes for fast charge and discharge. We should be wary of trying to increase adoption by decreasing regulation but I don't see that being a popular route, considering how long GWR have been testing their train.

 

[MarkyT]

Micromobility, small folding e-bikes, and one day perhaps legal personal scooters, ought to be a great fit with public transport in theory, solving the last-mile problem for many people. However, in addition to the current battery fire risk issue, there may be behavioural downsides too, such as the furious riding of such devices on platforms.