A few months ago in march, I was travelling from three bridges to Farringdon. I boarded the train without a ticket,and about 20 minutes into the journey I purchased an e-ticket on my phone for the full journey with no railcard or anything. I was approached by a revenue protection officer and was informed that my ticket was invalid as I had bought it after the train departed. We conversed for ages but eventually he managed to get my details and let me go and said that I may, or may not get a fine in the next few weeks. Thought nothing of it, maybe a £100 fine at worst. Instead months later I’ve been given a letter saying they intend to prosecute for having an invalid ticket, and have given me an opportunity to write a letter explaining the situation from my point of view. The problem is I have been fined in the past and I’m only 19 so I don’t really want a criminal record for something so stupid if I can help it. Someone please help, has anyone been able to get off on just an out of court settlement fine? Any useful advice would be appreciated
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Being prosecuted for having an invalid ticket
- Thread starter luja06
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notmyrealname
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Hi, welcome to the forum.
Could you show us a redacted version of their letter please? People should be her later to help.
Could you show us a redacted version of their letter please? People should be her later to help.
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They’re essentially right, it’s a criminal offence to board a train without holding a valid ticket.
That said, they’ll likely settle out of court rather than prosecuting you if you respond along the lines of
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
And that they believe you.
You’ll be asked to pay something like £150 + the full single fare of the ticket for the journey when you were stopped (£29.20?) and since you had an e-ticket your online purchase history will be examined.
That said, they’ll likely settle out of court rather than prosecuting you if you respond along the lines of
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
And that they believe you.
You’ll be asked to pay something like £150 + the full single fare of the ticket for the journey when you were stopped (£29.20?) and since you had an e-ticket your online purchase history will be examined.
Note that if you already paid the correct fare there is no fare outstanding - you should certainly not be paying for the journey twice! Buying after boarding does NOT make the ticket invalid. If there was no loss of revenue to the train company you should try to persuade them to settle with a warning, with reference to the ORR's recent review if need be.
Well the problem is I purchased an e-ticket earlier that day to pass through the barriers at three bridges, does that make it essentially inevitable that I will end up with a criminal charge? Especially as I have been fined before for not having a ticket and tried to give fake details ?
enyoueffsea
On Moderation
Where exactly were you travelling from and to and what tickets did you hold?
What stage of the journey were you caught and what explanation did you give to the RPI?
I am assuming Farringdon was not your final destination.
Will your ticket buying history evidence other short fare tickets or buying tickets after departure?
What stage of the journey were you caught and what explanation did you give to the RPI?
I am assuming Farringdon was not your final destination.
Will your ticket buying history evidence other short fare tickets or buying tickets after departure?
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Yes Farringdon was actually my destination I paid a full fare. Just not before I got on the train. I bought it about 20 mins after departure and was caught around east Croydon. I respectfully argued with the officer and did everything I could not to give correct details, unfortunately they weren’t having it and started threatening me with phone calls to the police to detain me at Farringdon station so I gave my details and they let me go. However I did not know they would prosecute me over something so ridiculous
enyoueffsea
On Moderation
So what does this relate to?
Fawkes Cat
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To step back a little:
- the letter you have received doesn't mean that the railway have decided to prosecute you: it just means that they might.
- in our experience, a courteous letter back to them, covering the points @jfollows suggests in post #4 will result in the railway letting you settle the case for (in broad terms) around £150 to £200
- but as @furlong says in post #5, the railway could be wrong in saying your ticket was invalid: I would add that they haven't mentioned the different offence that you have told us about, of boarding a train without a valid ticket.
- so you could try fighting this, and you might find that you don't have to pay as much or even anything.
The trouble with fighting it is that you have no guarantee of winning, and my feeling is that you aren't in a strong position: the railway deal with things like this every day and could employ lawyers to deal with it. Against this, unless you are prepared to pay money for your own lawyer and,/or face a lot of stress, you're on your own.
If you just want the problem to go away, my advice would be to send a letter as suggested in post #4, and you can expect to settle out of court.
- the letter you have received doesn't mean that the railway have decided to prosecute you: it just means that they might.
- in our experience, a courteous letter back to them, covering the points @jfollows suggests in post #4 will result in the railway letting you settle the case for (in broad terms) around £150 to £200
- but as @furlong says in post #5, the railway could be wrong in saying your ticket was invalid: I would add that they haven't mentioned the different offence that you have told us about, of boarding a train without a valid ticket.
- so you could try fighting this, and you might find that you don't have to pay as much or even anything.
The trouble with fighting it is that you have no guarantee of winning, and my feeling is that you aren't in a strong position: the railway deal with things like this every day and could employ lawyers to deal with it. Against this, unless you are prepared to pay money for your own lawyer and,/or face a lot of stress, you're on your own.
If you just want the problem to go away, my advice would be to send a letter as suggested in post #4, and you can expect to settle out of court.
Kite159
Veteran Member
How much time was there between you buying the ticket when on the train and the revenue check?
About 10 minutes
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Thanks so much for the advice, I am drafting a letter expressing regret for my actions and hope to settle it out of court. Pray for me!
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But you bought the ticket about 20 minutes after boarding, and were stopped around East Croydon, which is about 20 minutes from Three Bridges. So are you sure the ticket wasn't purchased as soon as you saw the inspector appear (they will know exactly how long before you were checked the ticket was bought).
I'm assuming the ticket you bought earlier to get through the barriers was a short ticket, which suggests that this was deliberate fare evasion. Am I right? They will come to the same conclusion, so any attempt to suggest otherwise is unlikely to cut much ice and may well hinder your cause.
Snow1964
Established Member
1) Just to be clear, did you buy a low value ticket to pass through the barriers at Three Bridges.
Then you bought another ticket from Three Bridges to Farringdon (just before ticket was about to be inspected).
It is going to look like second ticket was only purchased because you saw a ticket examiner approaching. You need to be honest with the forum if that is what you did, otherwise will get wrong advice.
2) Have you done this before, bought tickets just to get through barriers, you have to assume any app or web history will show your ticket history.
It will not look good if there is another low value ticket to get through an exit barrier about hour later. Known as doughnutting (hole in middle) of fare
3) How many months / years ago was the previous fine, and which rail operator. Clearly you cannot say you have leant your lesson previously if got caught again. If it was many years then unlikely to link it, but if you have come to their notice before then expect harsher treatment.
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Then you bought another ticket from Three Bridges to Farringdon (just before ticket was about to be inspected).
It is going to look like second ticket was only purchased because you saw a ticket examiner approaching. You need to be honest with the forum if that is what you did, otherwise will get wrong advice.
2) Have you done this before, bought tickets just to get through barriers, you have to assume any app or web history will show your ticket history.
It will not look good if there is another low value ticket to get through an exit barrier about hour later. Known as doughnutting (hole in middle) of fare
3) How many months / years ago was the previous fine, and which rail operator. Clearly you cannot say you have leant your lesson previously if got caught again. If it was many years then unlikely to link it, but if you have come to their notice before then expect harsher treatment.
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I think @luja06 needs to be careful claiming the ticket purchased onboard was valid.
If ticket purchasing facilities were available at Three Bridges station (which I'm sure they would be), an offence under section 18.1 of the Railway Byelaws was committed because @luja06 did not possess a valid ticket for their journey when they boarded the train.
If they purchased a short distance ticket to get through barriers then initially this would be a valid ticket satisfying s18.1 of the byelaws but @luja06 would then fall foul of s5.3(b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act.
If ticket purchasing facilities were available at Three Bridges station (which I'm sure they would be), an offence under section 18.1 of the Railway Byelaws was committed because @luja06 did not possess a valid ticket for their journey when they boarded the train.
If they purchased a short distance ticket to get through barriers then initially this would be a valid ticket satisfying s18.1 of the byelaws but @luja06 would then fall foul of s5.3(b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act.
enyoueffsea
On Moderation
It doesn’t appear from their initial explanations they ever presented this ticket to the RPI.
That said, until the OP responds to the questions asked honestly it’ll be very difficult to provide them any advice or support.
Yes. Truthfully I did do so. And have done many times before. The first time I was fined was at brighton station, I did not have a ticket and was fined on the spot which was approximately a year ago. Then in march I was caught with an invalid ticket. I bought a low value ticket to get through the barriers and then upon seeing RPI I bought a full price ticket on the train. Then after conversing for a long time and failing to give them the correct details, I finally gave in and they said to me that I may or may not get a fine. And thought nothing of it. Now here I am. I just hope if I write a response letter apologetic enough, I can get away with not going to court. In anyone’s experience, would a case like mine likely end up in court with a conviction?
GTR normally offer out of court settlements to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. The problem is you have come to their attention before - twice! Many would argue that this sort of behaviour should result in a court appearance.
It's likely that GTR will still offer an out of court letter if you write them a suitable letter, but we cannot be 100% certain of this. If you want to put your draft reply in this thread forum members will oroof read it for you.
sorry for bad handwriting, had it written already, would be quicker to just send photo
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"I did not intend to avoid paying the full train fare"....
Well yes, you did, and they will know that, so you need to be completely honest if you want to get them on your side and offer you a settlement.
Also, if you've done this many times before then they are likely to see a series of short tickets, will draw their own conclusions as to what you have been doing, and will probably ask you to pay the correct train fare for all the journeys you have avoided.
Well yes, you did, and they will know that, so you need to be completely honest if you want to get them on your side and offer you a settlement.
Also, if you've done this many times before then they are likely to see a series of short tickets, will draw their own conclusions as to what you have been doing, and will probably ask you to pay the correct train fare for all the journeys you have avoided.
Ok then fine. What should I say? I should add I don’t take the train often anymore. for about a year now. What can I say here which will help me
You can’t claim you didn’t try to avoid the fare. You did, and they know that; it’s obvious that’s what you were doing. That’s why you’re in this trouble in the first place.
It’s also unclear why you crossed out “unacceptable” and substituted “against your rules”. It’s against the law; again, that’s why you’re in trouble! You can’t get caught trying to steal something and say “sorry it’s against *your rules*” - no, it’s fundamentally dishonest to try and rip people off. You bought a cheap ticket to get through the barriers and hoped to get away without paying. The people you’re writing to weren’t born yesterday and deal with this sort of stuff dozens of times a day.
It’s also unclear why you crossed out “unacceptable” and substituted “against your rules”. It’s against the law; again, that’s why you’re in trouble! You can’t get caught trying to steal something and say “sorry it’s against *your rules*” - no, it’s fundamentally dishonest to try and rip people off. You bought a cheap ticket to get through the barriers and hoped to get away without paying. The people you’re writing to weren’t born yesterday and deal with this sort of stuff dozens of times a day.
You can delete it but the train company will have access to it anyway and will likely have already requested it. All it means is that you won’t be able to see your own tickets any more and it will hamper your defence, as well as making you look more culpable.
Haywain
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But that isn't true either, otherwise you wouldn't have been caught trying to dodge your fare.
I used to commute by train a lot untill I started driving a year ago. The only reason I was taking the train was so I didn’t have to drive into london for a work event so I parked next to three bridges. I don’t take the train often at all anymore
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes unfortunately I used to do it a lot up untill about a year ago
If the company has audited your ticket history - which they often do - then they will see this. So you have to be very careful what you say and not tell any more lies in your correspondence to them, because right now you’ve been caught and are essentially being subject to an honesty test.
Haywain
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Something about being sorry and assuring them that you'll change your ways might be appropriate. As far as the worries about what they might find are concerned, if they haven't mentioned anything yet then you shouldn't either.
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