Beggar on London Underground

[TurbostarFan]

When travelling on London Underground a while back I've seen a few occasions when beggars have walked from carriage to carriage via the "Emergency use only" doors. What should I do in this situation? Would waiting until the next station and pulling the alarm lever be reasonable in the circumstances? I think that this would be and that is what I would do if I encountered this situation in the future, it is better to sound a false alarm than for the driver to find himself involved in a fatality.

 

[bramling]

When travelling on London Underground a while back I've seen a few occasions when beggars have walked from carriage to carriage via the "Emergency use only" doors. What should I do in this situation? Would waiting until the next station and pulling the alarm lever be reasonable in the circumstances? I think that this would be and that is what I would do if I encountered this situation in the future, it is better to sound a false alarm than for the driver to find himself involved in a fatality.

The best thing to do is either nothing, ultimately it’s not your problem, or perhaps if travelling in the front car a gentle knock on the driver’s door when alighting if the beggars are still on the train, so he can make an announcement to dissuade people giving money.

Operating the alarm will merely delay both the train, the passengers and yourself. Even if it succeeds in getting the beggar thrown off the train (in reality they will likely have disappeared before staff arrive to investigate), it’s not going to stop them doing it in the future.

The only way to prevent beggars is nobody giving them money.

 

[EM2]

Another option would be to alight at the next station, alert staff (either in person or via a Help Point) and then continue on the next train.

 

[Mojo]

The best thing would be to Text or Email 61016 and report it to the BTP who can generate intelligence on where these individuals intimidating the travelling public are operating. No point letting station staff or Train Operators know as there’s not much they can do.

 

[bionic]

Surely most of the above is a wind up.

Pulling an emergency handle down for a beggar?!!!

Even if you tap on the drivers door you'll probably just succeed in p***ing the driver off. Drivers do five days a week up and down the same line. They will see the same beggars and buskers all the time. Punters slam those doors walking through the train all the time too. The warning stickers are only on them to save LU being liable for accidents. Nobody actually really cares if people use them.

What you do, if you've got any sense and want to survive in London for more than five minutes without going mad, is ignore the beggar and don't pay it a second thought. I mean if you think a beggar constitutes an emergency it must be a miracle you ever being able to leave the house.

 

[bramling]

Surely most of the above is a wind up.

Pulling an emergency handle down for a beggar?!!!

Even if you tap on the drivers door you'll probably just succeed in p***ing the driver off. Drivers do five days a week up and down the same line. They will see the same beggars and buskers all the time. Punters slam those doors walking through the train all the time too. The warning stickers are only on them to save LU being liable for accidents. Nobody actually really cares if people use them.

What you do, if you've got any sense and want to survive in London for more than five minutes without going mad, is ignore the beggar and don't pay it a second thought. I mean if you think a beggar constitutes an emergency it must be a miracle you ever being able to leave the house.

Most drivers won’t object to someone tapping on the cab door (side door not the ‘J’ door) and letting them know, and likewise won’t have a problem with making a quick PA asking people not to give money, and perhaps advising the line controller so that other trains can be asked to do same. That’s about as far as it goes though, it’s not worth delaying the service.

 

[bionic]

Most drivers won’t object to someone tapping on the cab door (side door not the ‘J’ door) and letting them know, and likewise won’t have a problem with making a quick PA asking people not to give money

This is the madness of it though. Why does a driver need to advise people not to give money to beggars walking through the train? It's common sense. If people need an announcement to tell them something as basic as that then maybe the driver should also make a PA telling them to brush their teeth twice a day, get plenty of exercise and never eat yellow snow.

You made the point above that the only way to stop it is nobody to pay up. The driver is there to drive / operate the train safely and not to give people advice over the PA on common sense life choices. Beggars have been part and parcel of the underground ever since I can remember and no amount of PAs in the world are going to stop it. Yeah the driver might make a PA, he might even tell the controller. Will anyone care? No. Will the beggar still come back tomorrow? Yes.

 

[bramling]

This is the madness of it though. Why does a driver need to advise people not to give money to beggars walking through the train? It's common sense. If people need an announcement to tell them something as basic as that then maybe the driver should also make a PA telling them to brush their teeth twice a day, get plenty of exercise and never eat yellow snow.

You made the point above that the only way to stop it is nobody to pay up. The driver is there to drive / operate the train safely and not to give people advice over the PA on common sense life choices. Beggars have been part and parcel of the underground ever since I can remember and no amount of PAs in the world are going to stop it. Yeah the driver might make a PA, he might even tell the controller. Will anyone care? No. Will the beggar still come back tomorrow? Yes.

I tend to agree. What a PA achieves is to give the impression that *something* has been done and the begging isn’t being completely condoned, and for all I know it might have some chance of influencing some people into not giving money. That reduction in income could well be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. There’s also the possibility the beggar may move on - albeit, as you say, probably simply moving the problem elsewhere. Making a quick PA isn’t a major imposition on the driver.

 

[jon0844]

This is the madness of it though. Why does a driver need to advise people not to give money to beggars walking through the train? It's common sense. If people need an announcement to tell them something as basic as that then maybe the driver should also make a PA telling them to brush their teeth twice a day, get plenty of exercise and never eat yellow snow.

You made the point above that the only way to stop it is nobody to pay up. The driver is there to drive / operate the train safely and not to give people advice over the PA on common sense life choices. Beggars have been part and parcel of the underground ever since I can remember and no amount of PAs in the world are going to stop it. Yeah the driver might make a PA, he might even tell the controller. Will anyone care? No. Will the beggar still come back tomorrow? Yes.

But there's a growing problem right now, a resurgence if you like, and the police want to know where and when these people are operating, along with descriptions.

If you don't want to bother the driver to get an announcement made, please do at least send a text to 61016 and then give information about the person. Especially the tissue sellers that are highly organised and seemed to have disappeared and are now back.

People do give them money. I see it all the time. That's why they still do it. In another thread, I even got told off for telling someone not to give - being told these people are poor, desperate, people. They don't seem to like being told it funds organised crime.. and it really is very organised.

I wonder if any of the passenger information systems can play an automated message that the driver can activate at a press of just a button or two?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if you tap on the drivers door you'll probably just succeed in p***ing the driver off. Drivers do five days a week up and down the same line. They will see the same beggars and buskers all the time. Punters slam those doors walking through the train all the time too. The warning stickers are only on them to save LU being liable for accidents. Nobody actually really cares if people use them.

I've never used one, but I have seen them used, and did generally get the impression that if they were *that* bothered about them being opened they would have either an alarm or be connected to the interlock in some form - they are neither.

 

[londonboi]

This is the madness of it though. Why does a driver need to advise people not to give money to beggars walking through the train? It's common sense. If people need an announcement to tell them something as basic as that then maybe the driver should also make a PA telling them to brush their teeth twice a day, get plenty of exercise and never eat yellow snow.

You made the point above that the only way to stop it is nobody to pay up. The driver is there to drive / operate the train safely and not to give people advice over the PA on common sense life choices. Beggars have been part and parcel of the underground ever since I can remember and no amount of PAs in the world are going to stop it. Yeah the driver might make a PA, he might even tell the controller. Will anyone care? No. Will the beggar still come back tomorrow? Yes.

Not madness believe it or not as soon as a beggar hears the pa they get off the train VERY quickly. There are 2 known beggars on the line I work and as soon as I see them get on I make a quick announcement and no sooner are they off the train as quick as they got on. So a PA is NOT madness it actually works

 

[bionic]

Not madness believe it or not as soon as a beggar hears the pa they get off the train VERY quickly. There are 2 known beggars on the line I work and as soon as I see them get on I make a quick announcement and no sooner are they off the train as quick as they got on. So a PA is NOT madness it actually works

The fact these beggars are KNOWN is proof it doesn't work. All the PAs do is put them on the train behind. PAs might be effective at getting them off your train but it doesn't reduce begging in general, just simply moves the problem along.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are only two real ways to stop it - one of them is to solve the economic and social issues causing homelessness, and then after that there will need to be enforcement to stop people begging and sleeping on the streets who are choosing to do so once they genuinely do have better options.

 

[bionic]

There are only two real ways to stop it - one of them is to solve the economic and social issues causing homelessness, and then after that there will need to be enforcement to stop people begging and sleeping on the streets who are choosing to do so once they genuinely do have better options.

Agree.

 

[rebmcr]

the police want to know where and when these people are operating, along with descriptions.

Then they should at least have a poster campaign so that (for example) the first I know of it isn't by chance on a niche internet forum!

I wonder if any of the passenger information systems can play an automated message that the driver can activate at a press of just a button or two?

At the very least, the 09 Tube Stock on the Victoria line does.

There are only two real ways to stop it - one of them is to solve the economic and social issues causing homelessness, and then after that there will need to be enforcement to stop people begging and sleeping on the streets who are choosing to do so once they genuinely do have better options.

Absolutely.

 

[Rogmi]

It must be remembered that many, if not most, of these are professional beggars who can make a lot of money from the public in a very short time. Whilst there are genuine homeless people sleeping rough, most of those begging are often in organised groups who travel in to beg and them back to their homes in the suburbs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It must be remembered that many, if not most, of these are professional beggars who can make a lot of money from the public in a very short time. Whilst there are genuine homeless people sleeping rough, most of those begging are often in organised groups who travel in to beg and them back to their homes in the suburbs.

Hence the need for enforcement. I understand that genuine homeless people have no other sensible way to obtain a pittance to continue to exist, but begging should otherwise not be allowed. Because it's hard to differentiate, ensuring proper facilities are provided for the genuine homeless (and not using "putting them back on the street" as a sanction for poor behaviour, say) and then making and enforcing begging as a criminal offence[1] is probably the only way to actually deal with the issue.

[1] Something like "soliciting for donation of funds in a public place without the appropriate licence for a charity collection, or selling items in a public place without a street trading licence" should sum it up for a law.

 

[Tube driver]

Most drivers won’t object to someone tapping on the cab door (side door not the ‘J’ door) and letting them know, and likewise won’t have a problem with making a quick PA asking people not to give money, and perhaps advising the line controller so that other trains can be asked to do same. That’s about as far as it goes though, it’s not worth delaying the service.

Bear in mind that in many locations the drivers door is beyond the end of platform barriers and shouldn’t be crossed by passengers even though it is still within the physical limits of the platform. I don’t mind people knocking on my door to alert me to a potential problem but I don’t want them placing themselves in a potentially dangerous location. (I know you’re aware of this Bramling but it’s worth pointing out for non-tube people).

Easiest way to deal with this is to use the information points on the platform and let station staff take it from there.

 

[Busaholic]

I still remember the first time I was approached by a beggar. It was 1973, I got off a bus outside St Pancras Station and a middle-aged Scottish alcoholic (or a good impression of one )
demanded money. I was then young and, then and now, reasonably hefty, so was able to give him some advice but I was quite shocked because of the unexpectedness of it all. I think it was another year or two before another occurrence, and soon it became boringly regular.

 

[Jozhua]

Before you all say the London Underground is bad, have you seen the amount of beggars on the NYC subway

Joking though, I love it, especially when all the lights suddenly cut out!

 

[Wolfie]

There are only two real ways to stop it - one of them is to solve the economic and social issues causing homelessness, and then after that there will need to be enforcement to stop people begging and sleeping on the streets who are choosing to do so once they genuinely do have better options.

That is assuming that they really are homeless as opposed to addicts of some sort...

 

[TurbostarFan]

The real issue here isn't the fact that the person is begging (which I don't mind in itself and should not be illegal per se in my opinion) but the signage on the emergency door that the person will end up using if they decide to jump from carriage to carriage. This would have previously in my opinion be a genuine reason to use the emergency alarm immediately.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There have been beggars as long as there's been people and money. Some are genuinely in trouble, some genuinely aren't in trouble, some are a bit of both. No point getting wound up, a polite but firm no is all that's needed. If there's aggression let the BTP know.

 

[Mojo]

There have been beggars as long as there's been people and money. Some are genuinely in trouble, some genuinely aren't in trouble, some are a bit of both. No point getting wound up, a polite but firm no is all that's needed. If there's aggression let the BTP know.

It’s always worth letting BTP know regardless of whether there is aggression or not, this lets them know if there is a particular line or location where these individuals are particularly prevalent, allowing them to organise operations to prevent such behaviour. Similarly it also allows for officers and PCSOs on duty at the time to know where to go.