Beeching Night - BBC Parliament, Sunday 9 June

[telstarbox]

As mentioned in the 1982 documentary last night, the Serpell Report is available here - the four options start on page 68 of the PDF.

Option A (the most drastic one) would have meant closure of, among others, the Cross Country Route, the MML, the ECML above Newcastle, and all lines in Scotland and Wales except the main lines to London.

 

[Cruithne3753]

Didn't get to see it as I was on the train back from Brighton. (3 3/4 hours in a 3-car 158!) Looked on the BBC iPlayer, all there is is the 5 minute introduction... useful... not!

(Edit - just found the rest, just not obvious!)

 

[30mog]

Its been 30 years coming.

The quote about Crossrail being finished by mid to late 90's. Alomost fell out of chair with laughter.

 

[30mog]

I think a point it put over very well is that 30 years ago we had a Conservative government that wanted to close railways because they didn't want to pay for them. Today we have a Conservative led coalition that also doesn't want to pay for them but realises they are worth more alive than dead. For this we should at least be thankful.

Had Settle and Carlisle been closed it would have had a domino effect. More would have followed. A old friend who worked for BR at about that time, in reaction to my suggestion the Midland Mainline needed electrifying, said. "According to what he had heard. It's future was not even that safe. He saw the future as Sheffield to London being served by Doncaster to Kings Cross, with a feeder service. And a similar pattern throughout the country north of Network South East." Therefore the man who agreed to give the S & C another chance potentially saved 1000s of miles of network.

Beeching made savage cuts because he was forced to by burgeoning competition from road traffic. Right and wrongs of it are more complex an issue. Fifty years later. The roads are so stuffed that people are looking for alternatives in burgeoning numbers. The solutions with the network we have got are costly enough. The man who saved the S&C potentially saved us from a solution that would have been priced in the region of making HS2 look a bargain beginning.

Dr Beeching, I wasn't around to see the effects of what you did. I have however grown up seeing lots of disused trackbed that could still be salvaged for rail use. And think what a waste. But you did what you thought was right. Michael Portillo, how lucky are we you later showed us through the media you are a bit of a train buff? Not a matter to be underestimated when we consider it was you who refused to sign the document that would have closed the S & C. Michael Portillo - you aren't bad to say you are a Tory!

 

[Frothy]

I really dislike Richard Wellings.

 

[Darandio]

Didn't get to see it as I was on the train back from Brighton. (3 3/4 hours in a 3-car 158!) Looked on the BBC iPlayer, all there is is the 5 minute introduction... useful... not!

(Edit - just found the rest, just not obvious!)

And with that, it's probably worth listing them.

7pm - Beeching Night http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b02xczsh/Beeching_Night/

7.05pm - Let's Imagine http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03495yn/Lets_Imagine_A_Branch_Line_Railway_with_John_Betjeman/

7:25pm - BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03495yt/BBC_News_Reports_from_1963/

7.35pm - Tonight http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034c9s1/Tonight_Beeching_and_Lord_Stonham/

7.55pm - Panorama http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034c9s6/Panorama_08_02_1965/

8.05pm - Politics On Track http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034dhhh/Politics_on_Track/

8.50pm - 24 Hours http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034dhhx/24_Hours_29_03_1971/

9.00pm - Brass Tacks http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034gt7v/Brass_Tacks_Reports_Backdoor_Beeching/

9.40pm - Panorama http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034gt81/Panorama_24_01_1983/

10.10pm - Newsnight http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034gt83/Newsnight_29_07_1988/

10.20pm - First Sight http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034jxfw/First_Sight/

10.50pm - Panorama http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034jxg9/Panorama_The_Wrong_Track/

11.35pm - Landward http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b034jxg9/Panorama_The_Wrong_Track/

 

[Cruithne3753]

And with that, it's probably worth listing them.

Good point!

 

[Furrball]

A very handy tool if you wish to download programmes from BBC and watch at your leisure

http://www.infradead.org/get_iplayer/html/get_iplayer.html

 

[madmack37]

i watched them all from around 7:30 aprox & was very educating & entertaining just a shame it can be done more often showing old news reals & segments from shows like panorama & tonight

mark

 

[Cletus]

There's a Beeching article on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22802433

His name is a dirty word among railway enthusiasts, but was he actually ahead of his time? A night of programmes on BBC Parliament explores the legacy of Dr Richard Beeching.

When Dr Beeching was brought in by ministers in the early 1960s, Britain's railways were making annual losses of £140m - £2.5bn at today's prices.

His report, published in March 1963, recommended closing about a third of the network which was least cost-effective - amounting to 5,000 miles of track and 2,363 stations...
etc

 

[General Zod]

Would anyone have the list of lines/routes that were on the stealth closure list as mentioned in the programme "Back door Beeching" ? I think the programme narrator was working through a list of them at the end on the episode. They also showed a map which showed the doomed routes. Would be interesting to see how many survived the cuts ! I did hear that High Wycombe to Banbury was on the list ; truly unthinkable considering how many passengers use that particular stretch of line these days !

 

[jon0844]

As said many times, it wasn't about predicting the future but dealing with a declining railway at the time - and huge losses.

It must have seemed at the time as if people were going off the railways, having just discovered the personal freedom of owning a car and having a growing road network to satisfy their travel needs.

 

[yorksrob]

Would anyone have the list of lines/routes that were on the stealth closure list as mentioned in the programme "Back door Beeching" ? I think the programme narrator was working through a list of them at the end on the episode. They also showed a map which showed the doomed routes. Would be interesting to see how many survived the cuts ! I did hear that High Wycombe to Banbury was on the list ; truly unthinkable considering how many passengers use that particular stretch of line these days !

On the map of endangered routes that briefly flashed up towards the end of the programme, I'm sure I saw the Tunbridge Wells Central - Hastings route. Presumably this would have been as an alternative to electrification and finding finding a solution to the narrow tunnel problem when the Thumpers were due for replacement. Fortunately wiser counsel prevailed !

 

[MP33]

A little before Dr Beeching died there was a series of programmes on Television South (TVS) hosted by John Stapleton. He interviewed a number of people about what they had done in their life and asked whether they regretted it.

Dr Beeching expressed no regrets and said that he wanted to go further. He gave an example of closing the ECML north of Newcastle. Stating that this would only affect a few people living in Berwick on Tweed.

Off topic, one of the other guests was Jess Yates and he was very bitter and twisted about a number of organisations and people who dumped him after his affair.

 

[yorksrob]

A little before Dr Beeching died there was a series of programmes on Television South (TVS) hosted by John Stapleton. He interviewed a number of people about what they had done in their life and asked whether they regretted it.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer to resist the waft of historical revisionism that seems hover over the Beeching legacy in an attempt to rehabilitate it in spite of it's overwhelming flaws.

 

[John @ home]

Would anyone have the list of lines/routes that were on the stealth closure list as mentioned in the programme "Back door Beeching"?

The list read out at the end of that programme was:

Barrow - Carlisle
Blackpool South - Kirkham
Bletchley - Bedford
Bristol - Severn Beach
Burnley - Colne
Castle Cary - Dorchester
Chester - Shrewsbury
Craven Arms - Llanelli
Darlington - Bishop Auckland
Derby - Stoke-on-Trent
Dingwall - Kyle of Lochalsh
Doncaster - Spalding
Dovey Jn - Pwllheli
Ely - Norwich
Ely - Stowmarket
Exeter - Barnstaple
Fort William - Mallaig
Grantham - Skegness
Harrogate - York
Hebden Bridge - Rose Grove
High Wycombe - Banbury
Hull - Scarborough
Ipswich - Lowestoft
Middlesbrough - Whitby
Matlock - Ambergate
Newcastle - Carlisle

All these lines remain in passenger service in 2013.

The fact that the list is in alphabetical order B - N suggests to me that it may be incomplete.

 

[30mog]

The list read out at the end of that programme was:
All these lines remain in passenger service in 2013.

The fact that the list is in alphabetical order B - N suggests to me that it may be incomplete.

Indeed.

Banbury to High Wycombe has effectively become part of a mainline that competes with another. And Bedford to Bletchley looks set be electrified as part of the 'electric spine' project. I believe it's considered a surprise it survived Dr Beeching's work.

 

[Midlandman]

I thought Hastings-Ashford was threatened as well. I remember seeing the 'Back Door Beeching' report when it first came out. At the time, nobody was really aware of the extent of 'bustitution' as exemplified in the Boston case. It did start quite a debate in Modern Railways magazine. As for the Cambrian, I travelled over the line a few weeks later. I managed to get the rearmost seat in the usual Class 101 and probably spent more time staring at the sleepers than on any journey before or since.

 

[Brystar35]

Hello everybody I am trying to see this program but it's not viewable to me because I live in the united states, it says its only for British people, I am trying to find it on YouTube, is there a place I can view it like British rail journeys?

 

[Wyvern]

Its a legal matter that BBC programmes may only be viewable to UK licence fee payers and it applies to iPlayer as well.

Some programes may be put on YouTube and some pirate copies may appear.

Otherwise BBC programmes sometimes appear in archives - just put the words "free documentaries".into Google

 

[jon0844]

The BBC does seem to be trying to increase its selection of home-grown productions available to foreigners (there is now a foreign BBC iPlayer site, which I presume appears if you visit via the global BBC website).

There aren't the same rights issues, but I guess older material, produced by independent firms for the BBC, might still have to get permission obtained and it might be impractical to do that for programmes that are now very old.

Given we store all old newspapers and magazines, it would be good to see an organisation seeking to archive all old news broadcasts and documentaries, as these would provide an excellent insight into any given period/event, for future generations - but many will never be easily obtained or viewed again.

 

[jon0844]

Duplicate.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The list read out at the end of that programme was:
All these lines remain in passenger service in 2013.

The fact that the list is in alphabetical order B - N suggests to me that it may be incomplete.

Shrewsbury to toAberystwyth
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think a point it put over very well is that 30 years ago we had a Conservative government that wanted to close railways because they didn't want to pay for them. Today we have a Conservative led coalition that also doesn't want to pay for them but realises they are worth more alive than dead. For this we should at least be thankful.

Had Settle and Carlisle been closed it would have had a domino effect. More would have followed. A old friend who worked for BR at about that time, in reaction to my suggestion the Midland Mainline needed electrifying, said. "According to what he had heard. It's future was not even that safe. He saw the future as Sheffield to London being served by Doncaster to Kings Cross, with a feeder service. And a similar pattern throughout the country north of Network South East." Therefore the man who agreed to give the S & C another chance potentially saved 1000s of miles of network.

Beeching made savage cuts because he was forced to by burgeoning competition from road traffic. Right and wrongs of it are more complex an issue. Fifty years later. The roads are so stuffed that people are looking for alternatives in burgeoning numbers. The solutions with the network we have got are costly enough. The man who saved the S&C potentially saved us from a solution that would have been priced in the region of making HS2 look a bargain beginning.

Dr Beeching, I wasn't around to see the effects of what you did. I have however grown up seeing lots of disused trackbed that could still be salvaged for rail use. And think what a waste. But you did what you thought was right. Michael Portillo, how lucky are we you later showed us through the media you are a bit of a train buff? Not a matter to be underestimated when we consider it was you who refused to sign the document that would have closed the S & C. Michael Portillo - you aren't bad to say you are a Tory!

Back in 2003 I had a day rail lobbying at Westminster part of which was observing a Debate in one of the rooms in the old Palace of Westminster on Shropshire services, Mr Portillo came in half way through and sat next to me watching. I can remember thinking what's he doing here? Now we know.