Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[mangad]

It could be further improved, firstly by fixing whatever about the lifts makes them so unreliable (most of the time one or the other seems to be out of service - I hope they are pursuing the manufacturer / their maintenance contractors to improve this) and secondly by taking over part of the small NCP carpark on the northern side of Station Road to built a shortcut directly to the station.

The car park is planned to be redeveloped in one of the later phases of the Stockport Exchange scheme. So I would imagine they'll look at station access again when they get to that. It will be some years away though. Probably right at the end of the work as it's not a huge site.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The car park is planned to be redeveloped in one of the later phases of the Stockport Exchange scheme. So I would imagine they'll look at station access again when they get to that. It will be some years away though. Probably right at the end of the work as it's not a huge site.

What time period does the "later phases" mentioned above fall into? Will the Bee Network's vision for rail travel under its wing be a major player in the discussions concerning station access

 

[Andyh82]

I thought there already was good access between the bus and rail stations through the new park built above the bus station, and the new path/cycle way?

I’m sure some here aren’t happy until the buses are pulling up against the train platforms, any further away isn’t good enough

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought there already was good access between the bus and rail stations through the new park built above the bus station, and the new path/cycle way?

I’m sure some here aren’t happy until the buses are pulling up against the train platforms, any further away isn’t good enough

Quite agree with what you say. I had previously made a posting regarding foot passenger access by the new route from the bus station.

The bus station annually caters for far more passengers than the railway station and is ideally situated for the town centre shops and places of interest.

 

[mangad]

What time period does the "later phases" mentioned above fall into? Will the Bee Network's vision for rail travel under its wing be a major player in the discussions concerning station access

No idea. But it's taken at least ten years to get done what they have. We could be talking ten more years. Who knows. Don't expect the link path to be changing quickly anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

I thought there already was good access between the bus and rail stations through the new park built above the bus station, and the new path/cycle way?

I’m sure some here aren’t happy until the buses are pulling up against the train platforms, any further away isn’t good enough

It is clearly an improvement over what there was before, but obviously this is nowhere near as good as what you usually get in countries where integration is considered very important.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is clearly an improvement over what there was before, but obviously this is nowhere near as good as what you usually get in countries where integration is considered very important.

If you look at the number of destinations served by the existing buses, compared to those served by the railway station, the bus services serve many areas where there are no rail services.

Why on earth should bus passengers be seen as needing to be in close proximity to the railway station and can you imagine what the buses would have to endure on leaving the proposed bus station next the rail station, when they have to access the A6. The current problems that are caused to bus services accessing Longshut Lane from the A6 at the traffic lights, caused by diversions needed by the 12-month closure of the Greek Street roundabout, are a prime example of this.

I have spoken to a number of TfGM staff over this matter and their general consensus is that Stockport now has a brand-new bus station in an ideal position to benefir the people of the town and the fact that the new footbridge access from this new bus station offers a much better access to the railway station than was the case previously. It was stressed that the costs incurred by this new footbridge and its connection was not a small sum.

 

[mangad]

It is clearly an improvement over what there was before, but obviously this is nowhere near as good as what you usually get in countries where integration is considered very important.

If only we could go back to 1843 and build the station in a more convenient space. Oh and completely redesign Stockport town centre so that the shopping district was right next to the railway station.

But we can't. And frankly it's not important. And I say that as someone who regularly gets the bus to Stockport in order to get a train. The bus station is incredibly well sited for the shopping centre. To move it to be next to the railway station would be impossible due to land, and would inconvenience all the people who get the bus into town and then go to the shops, pubs and restaurants. To move the railway station would be amazing for connections, but impossible due to the viaduct.

And given that I am absolutely convinced that even the most integration minded of municipalities across the world would look at a situation like Stockport and go "yeah, what they have now makes the most sense."

 

[johncrossley]

If only we could go back to 1843 and build the station in a more convenient space. Oh and completely redesign Stockport town centre so that the shopping district was right next to the railway station.

But we can't. And frankly it's not important.

There are plenty of railway stations outside the UK that are far worse located than Stockport but have good public transport connections to both the city centre and railway station. In some other countries where there is good integration this debate wouldn't even be happening.

@Whisky Papa has already stated that the station is inconveniently sited, so this is a barrier to people making connections.

 

[mangad]

There are plenty of railway stations outside the UK that are far worse located than Stockport but have good public transport connections to both the city centre and railway station. In some other countries where there is good integration this debate wouldn't even be happening.

@Whisky Papa has already stated that the station is inconveniently sited, so this is a barrier to people making connections.

It's a five minute walk between the two. You can spend longer wandering around the same London Underground station trying to get between two lines.

Besides which, what can we do to improve it? Your argument appears to be "it should be better". Well maybe should. But the counter argument is "it's not terrible, the bus station is heavily used, the bus station is incredibly convenient for people going to the shops, to the market, that there's connections for bus routes that serve the A6 where people can use the Grand Central bus stops to really easily get to the railway station, and - and here's the kicker - without going back in time over a century and completely reorganising Stockport, there is nothing more that really can be done."

We are not in this utopia where everything was designed in the Victorian age to make connections perfect. We are in this world we have now. Unless you have any concrete proposals for how to address the issue, to say any more will simply be going round in circles.

 

[Cowley]

Before things go too far off topic, there’s a new thread below for discussing how interchanges could be planned etc.

How could bus and railway stations be better integrated going forward?

We are not in this utopia where everything was designed in the Victorian age to make connections perfect. We are in this world we have now. Unless you have any concrete proposals for how to address the issue, to say any more will simply be going round in circles. mods note - split from this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[johntea]

I must say I was impressed the other day with the 135 Bury - Piccadilly bus service, it didn’t seem to take much longer than the Metrolink even though it potentially covers something like 50 bus stops along the way!

Also handy having the 24 hour service although only a limited pilot on the route it seems at the moment, presumably they may extend to 7 days a week if the demand is there

 

[mayneway]

I must say I was impressed the other day with the 135 Bury - Piccadilly bus service, it didn’t seem to take much longer than the Metrolink even though it potentially covers something like 50 bus stops along the way!

Also handy having the 24 hour service although only a limited pilot on the route it seems at the moment, presumably they may extend to 7 days a week if the demand is there

135 and the 17 is supposedly going 7 days in the next few months.

 

[Statto]

I find the Bee Network site quite annoying to navigate, particularly if you want bus service changes (not live bus service updates like road closures) & PDF timetables, for the PDF timetables & changes you have to click on bus routes (not bus timetables), then type in the bus route number.

Merseytravel site by comparison, is far easier to navigate in this regard.

 

[Pinus contorta]

I find the Bee Network site quite annoying to navigate, particularly if you want bus service changes (not live bus service updates like road closures) & PDF timetables, for the PDF timetables & changes you have to click on bus routes (not bus timetables), then type in the bus route number.

Merseytravel site by comparison, is far easier to navigate in this regard.

Yea i couldn't find the service chan ges without digging deep and lots of patience

 

[Whisky Papa]

I find the Bee Network site quite annoying to navigate, particularly if you want bus service changes (not live bus service updates like road closures) & PDF timetables, for the PDF timetables & changes you have to click on bus routes (not bus timetables), then type in the bus route number.

Merseytravel site by comparison, is far easier to navigate in this regard.

I absolutely agree, although given my West Yorkshire home, my usual comparison is with Metro's site rather than Merseytravel's. The path on Bee Network to get to a bus timetable PDF is so obscure that I've usually forgotten how to do it the next time I try!

 

[markymark2000]

I absolutely agree, although given my West Yorkshire home, my usual comparison is with Metro's site rather than Merseytravel's. The path on Bee Network to get to a bus timetable PDF is so obscure that I've usually forgotten how to do it the next time I try!

Fully agree with you here. Why on earth TFGM hasn't seen sense yet with their website is beyond me.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Fully agree with you here. Why on earth TFGM hasn't seen sense yet with their website is beyond me.

The TFGM area maps are good though. I noted that the Wigan South one now show the St Helens area overlap. This is useful for folks liek me doing occasional cross boundary jour eys

 

[JasonL]

I'm just wondering, has anything been leaked from the meeting on the 26th of March or is it all tight lipped?

 

[markymark2000]

The TFGM area maps are good though. I noted that the Wigan South one now show the St Helens area overlap. This is useful for folks liek me doing occasional cross boundary jour eys

I do agree with you there. But having some good sections doesn't take away from the fact that they make it as hard as possible for people to access basic bus timetables.

 

[mayneway]

I'm just wondering, has anything been leaked from the meeting on the 26th of March or is it all tight lipped?

Well Tameside Labour Party are claiming they have secured better bus services for bus users in Stalybridge, Dukinfield and Hyde with 389’s being extended to Hyde bus station and a new 388 ‘Dukinfield’ circular.

 

[JasonL]

Well Tameside Labour Party are claiming they have secured better bus services for bus users in Stalybridge, Dukinfield and Hyde with 389’s being extended to Hyde bus station and a new 388 ‘Dukinfield’ circular.

Anything on Wigan?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Anything on Wigan?

I think that post relates to the map shared a couple weeks ago in post #1368 with proposals for improvement.
Wigan has:
New service 612 = Wigan - Ince - Platt Bridge - Abram - Golborne - Newton-le-Willows - St Helens.
The 615 (Wigan - Middlebrook) is being extended to Bolton.
Unknown timetable changes for 575 and 132

 

[JasonL]

I think that post relates to the map shared a couple weeks ago in post #1368 with proposals for improvement.
Wigan has:
New service 612 = Wigan - Ince - Platt Bridge - Abram - Golborne - Newton-le-Willows - St Helens.
The 615 (Wigan - Middlebrook) is being extended to Bolton.
Unknown timetable changes for 575 and 132

Ah right, those that I already knew of but I was only asking in case anything else was announced.

 

[mayneway]

Anything on Wigan?

It’s out of Tameside labour parties remit is Wigan, sorry!

 

[WibbleWobble]

I think that post relates to the map shared a couple weeks ago in post #1368 with proposals for improvement.
Wigan has:
New service 612 = Wigan - Ince - Platt Bridge - Abram - Golborne - Newton-le-Willows - St Helens.
The 615 (Wigan - Middlebrook) is being extended to Bolton.
Unknown timetable changes for 575 and 132

The 132 is capacity improvement - switching singles for double decks

 

[adam rogan]

I think that post relates to the map shared a couple weeks ago in post #1368 with proposals for improvement.
Wigan has:
New service 612 = Wigan - Ince - Platt Bridge - Abram - Golborne - Newton-le-Willows - St Helens.
The 615 (Wigan - Middlebrook) is being extended to Bolton.
Unknown timetable changes for 575 and 132

I fail to see how a Wigan to St Helens route via Golborne/Newton is effective. St Helens to Wigan passenger flows are already covered by the 320 and 352. Golborne is already served by the high frequency 610 so if the reason behind this new route is serving the railway line, then that argument is redundant. Also allowing Arriva to serve the Wigan to Warrington corridor with their rattling pulsars from Runcorn with the same hourly frequency is a step backwards instead of including it in the franchises.

My solution would be the bee network or warringtons own buses take on the wigan to warrington corridor with a 20/30 minute frequency during the day and hourly at night. Enhance the 34A service to serve newton Station so that combined with the 34 service to leigh and the 22 from Warrington to Ashton and the 39 to St Helens via Burton Wood, Newton station becomes a better interchange for those who want to connect onto buses to St Helens. People in Golborne also have the option of a short hop on the 610 to Ashton and changing onto the high frequency 320. Having a Bee Network bus cannibalize passengers from the current Newton to St Helens corridor is unwise and seems like another vanity project. Perhaps sorting out the two hourly frequencies within Greater Manchester on so many routes is a better use of money before creating wasteful circuitous routes outside the boundary.

I have seen in the memo that this new route is part of a partnership between the Liverpool City Region and Greater Manchester combined authorities. My proposed changes above would be far superior to creating this new route.

 

[JasonL]

I fail to see how a Wigan to St Helens route via Golborne/Newton is effective. St Helens to Wigan passenger flows are already covered by the 320 and 352. Golborne is already served by the high frequency 610 so if the reason behind this new route is serving the railway line, then that argument is redundant. Also allowing Arriva to serve the Wigan to Warrington corridor with their rattling pulsars from Runcorn with the same hourly frequency is a step backwards instead of including it in the franchises.

My solution would be the bee network or warringtons own buses take on the wigan to warrington corridor with a 20/30 minute frequency during the day and hourly at night. Enhance the 34A service to serve newton Station so that combined with the 34 service to leigh and the 22 from Warrington to Ashton and the 39 to St Helens via Burton Wood, Newton station becomes a better interchange for those who want to connect onto buses to St Helens. People in Golborne also have the option of a short hop on the 610 to Ashton and changing onto the high frequency 320. Having a Bee Network bus cannibalize passengers from the current Newton to St Helens corridor is unwise and seems like another vanity project. Perhaps sorting out the two hourly frequencies within Greater Manchester on so many routes is a better use of money before creating wasteful circuitous roures outside the boundary.

I pretty much share your views on the Wigan to Warrington route (360). The E200MMCs will more than likely move to another depot in Merseyside from Runcorn. Also the Pulsars are pretty much outdated and not suitable for a route like that and the 329 as well. Warrington's Own Buses should take over the 329 and either Bee Network or Warrington's Own Buses should take over the 22A/360 or maybe perhaps extend the 629 to Newton-le-Willows or Warrington.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 132 is capacity improvement - switching singles for double decks

Are they getting more double deckers, or will it just be a few extra services working around school buses?

 

[adam rogan]

Whether you like it or not the 360 is a commercial route operated by Arriva, no one else has a say on how the 360 is operated, unless they want to register a competing 360, oh & give it a rest most of your proposals are clueless.

Not very nice of you to say due to a difference of opinion. Constructive criticism is welcome. Here is the thrust of my argument. The 360 will be run under a permit as the Liverpool City Region won't take it on come October so Arriva to keep a foothold in Manchester will move it and run it from their Runcorn depot. The permit could be refused and the bee network take over the route and run it according to it's standards as it is a key corridor and is the only route that runs currently between Abram and Golborne. This is similar to what was done with the x5 from warrington to the airport which was axed due to a disagreement in funding when franchising was new. Two new routes were then introduced. One from Altrincham to the airport and one from Altrincham to Lymm. I disagreed with this but that's what transpired and should happen here with the 360.

What is clueless is creating a new link when there is enough service provision within Merseyside between Newton and St Helens making the creation of a new route outside of Greater Manchester redundant. With my proposal above, the 360 would be improved and the neighboring authority could improve services at Newton station to allow for onward connections. There is only one way that the new route from Newton to St Helens could be competitive is by bypassing Earlestown alltogether. Any other route, such as following the 34 or the 20 down vista road towards haydock will cause unnecessary overlaps with existing routes. My takes on things is based on my observations and intricate knowledge of passenger flows. What needs to be answered is why this link is more important than improving the frequencies on routes in in the 10 boroughs which are two hourly at certain times.