Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[JasonL]

I wonder when the 612 will start service?

 

[johncrossley]

As for every 12 minutes, well, sure it would be lovely, but on a cross-suburban section of route like this I'm not sure it would be found outside London.

Even in outer London frequencies are typically every 12-15 minutes, often better. For example, K1 and K2 in the Kingston area are right on the edge of London. These sorts of routes might be every 30 minutes in GM or even worse. Possibly even an hourly tendered route before franchising. Routes so close to Manchester city centre should be frequent.

 

[neilcobbe]

I wonder when the 612 will start service?

I worked hazard a guess of September when the 1st bit of Merseyside franchising starts in St.Helens & The Wirral.

 

[JasonL]

I worked hazard a guess of September when the 1st bit of Merseyside franchising starts in St.Helens & The Wirral.

Yeah I was thinking around that time as well but still it's a Bee Network service, not a LCR Metro Service.

 

[neilcobbe]

Yeah I was thinking around that time as well but still it's a Bee Network service, not a LCR Metro Service.

The meeting notes and the press release from tfgm state the route is "in conjunction with Liverpool City Region franchising". Hopefully the first of many cross boundary agreements. After all the old PTE's managed to run cross boundary routes from Merseyside into GM with no issues. Hopefully they'll sort something out with the Wigan/Southport routes.

 

[JasonL]

The meeting notes and the press release from tfgm state the route is "in conjunction with Liverpool City Region franchising". Hopefully the first of many cross boundary agreements. After all the old PTE's managed to run cross boundary routes from Merseyside info GM with no issues. Hopefully they'll sort something out with the Wigan/Southport routes.

It's going to be difficult since the majority of the 375/385 is in Lancashire while small fractions of both routes are in Merseyside and Greater Manchester

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's going to be difficult since the majority of the 375/385 is in Lancashire while small fractions of both routes are in Merseyside and Greater Manchester

That particular matter came to lighr when the first tranche of the Bee Network included the Wigan region.

 

[johncrossley]

It's going to be difficult since the majority of the 375/385 is in Lancashire while small fractions of both routes are in Merseyside and Greater Manchester

This might not make any difference if Liverpool City Region has a flat fare for all its routes whether inside or outside the boundary. The main issue at the moment is that Arriva is not accepting the £2 Hopper fare or Bee Network contactless capping so there's scope for an agreement with Liverpool to allow Bee Network tickets on all cross-boundary routes and vice versa, end to end, making Bee Network tickets valid to Southport and St Helens and Liverpool tickets valid to Wigan.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Even in outer London frequencies are typically every 12-15 minutes, often better. For example, K1 and K2 in the Kingston area are right on the edge of London. These sorts of routes might be every 30 minutes in GM or even worse. Possibly even an hourly tendered route before franchising. Routes so close to Manchester city centre should be frequent.

But these are not like-for-like comparisons of the population density or the facilities that town centres in suburban London offer - not least Underground stations or heavy rail stations with a 'metro' level of service. That difference alone makes not owning a car a much more realistic prospect in suburban London, I would suggest. From personal observation, Eccles isn't Ealing, Stretford isn't Stratford (despite both having 'a mall' as an attraction) and I'm guessing my birth town of Urmston probably compares badly with Uxbridge (sorry, there have never been enough pubs in the Good Beer Guide to make it worth my while getting there).

 

[johncrossley]

But these are not like-for-like comparisons of the population density or the facilities that town centres in suburban London offer - not least Underground stations or heavy rail stations with a 'metro' level of service.

I thought we were talking about connections off high frequency tram services? If you had high frequency connections off tram stops and Stockport station (which has more frequent trains than most mainline stations in Greater London) then you would have a good coverage of much of South Manchester. It is not as if GM is scared of running frequent buses. There are insanely frequent buses on several corridors.

 

[daodao]

I thought we were talking about connections off high frequency tram services? If you had high frequency connections off tram stops and Stockport station (which has more frequent trains than most mainline stations in Greater London) then you would have a good coverage of much of South Manchester. It is not as if GM is scared of running frequent buses. There are insanely frequent buses on several corridors.

I note the previous discussion about the frequency of route 42A being considered inadequate at only half hourly. My recollection (confirmed by checking on Timetable World) is that historically the route from Reddish to Didsbury via Heaton Moor (numbered 9 pre-SELNEC) was only half hourly in the 1960s. It is a cross-suburban route not serving major town centres that really can't justify a more frequent service.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I note the previous discussion about the frequency of route 42A being considered inadequate at only half hourly. My recollection (confirmed by checking on Timetable World) is that historically the route from Reddish to Didsbury via Heaton Moor (numbered 9 pre-SELNEC) was only half hourly in the 1960s. It is a cross-suburban route not serving major town centres that really can't justify a more frequent service.

Pre-franchising, the Reddish - Didsbury section of route was subsidised. So half-hourly is pretty good going in that case!

 

[JasonL]

I don't mean to be all speculative or anything but since it says that it's planned that the 34 St. Helens-Leigh will have its frequency increased and will have evening and Sunday services, I wonder it will be just Arriva (Stagecoach from September 2026) or will it be a shared route with Bee Network (possobly Go North West) Probably unlikely that it will be. We'll only find out in the coming weeks or months.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I note the previous discussion about the frequency of route 42A being considered inadequate at only half hourly. My recollection (confirmed by checking on Timetable World) is that historically the route from Reddish to Didsbury via Heaton Moor (numbered 9 pre-SELNEC) was only half hourly in the 1960s. It is a cross-suburban route not serving major town centres that really can't justify a more frequent service.

Indeed, and I made the point way back in post #1396 that its initial 42 replacement was only hourly. It was not necessarily a decision I or my schedules colleagues agreed with, but we were told the passenger figures really didn't support anything more at the time. At least Heaton Moor gained a through bus to Manchester via the new 197 around the same time (I can't recall exactly the order they happened now). In fact, a lot of our work at the time was breaking down former municipal boundaries to create longer routes - admittedly, operational efficiency in some cases was the driver but increased opportunity was definitely a bonus.

I thought we were talking about connections off high frequency tram services? If you had high frequency connections off tram stops and Stockport station (which has more frequent trains than most mainline stations in Greater London) then you would have a good coverage of much of South Manchester. It is not as if GM is scared of running frequent buses. There are insanely frequent buses on several corridors.

Are we? Okay then, yes, Stockport has a good train service, but from an inconveniently located station. People may well arrive by bus when undertaking occasional longer journeys, but I would be surprised if there are that many who transfer there as part of a regular commute to Manchester. My experience, both as a bus driver and as station retail staff, was that relatively few commuters at suburban stations arrived by bus, despite options for multi-mode tickets - given the limited train and bus services (by London standards) it would require either serial good luck or a lot of patience to do so. They mostly walked or drove, a few cycled (either leaving their bikes or taking them on the train) or got dropped off. Clearly the train services are not going to be increased in frequency due to lack of track capacity, so I can't see this pattern changing.

I assume that there is more transfer from buses onto Metrolink at Altrincham and Bury and perhaps Whitefield, whether there is much at East Didsbury or Chorlton I don't honestly know. It may be worthwhile depending on exact origin and destination for some, but I would think if people have a direct bus, they'd be likely to use it all the way.

As for "insanely frequent" buses, yes, the worst excesses of deregulation are hopefully past us now. But radial main roads inevitably branch, and those branches still require a passable level of service to be remotely attractive. Are you suggesting that there should not be direct buses from, say, Urmston into Manchester because at Stretford they join the A56 and duplicate buses from Altrincham into Manchester? Or indeed, they parallel Metrolink (or the electrified Altrincham line previously) for that stretch? I can well imagine my mother being impressed with the necessity of having to change at Stretford back when I was a child!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't mean to be all speculative or anything but since it says that it's planned that the 34 St. Helens-Leigh will have its frequency increased and will have evening and Sunday services, I wonder it will be just Arriva (Stagecoach from September 2026) or will it be a shared route with Bee Network (possobly Go North West) Probably unlikely that it will be. We'll only find out in the coming weeks or months.

What was the final year that the service 34 from the Arndale Underground Bus Staion in Manchester ran all the way to Liverpool?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2026 ==

Stockport has a good train service, but from an inconveniently located station.

When the new Stockport Interchange was built, a new bridged connection from the urban parkland that overtops the interchange to the railway station was erected.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What was the final year that the service 34 from the Arndale Underground Bus Staion in Manchester ran all the way to Liverpool?

The timetable archive https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM030/n-ZhDdvm has the 34 amended to just to Leigh (with limited to Lowton) as of 19/6/1995.

 

[JasonL]

What was the final year that the service 34 from the Arndale Underground Bus Staion in Manchester ran all the way to Liverpool?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2026 ==


Not sure, the 34 from Liverpool to Manchester ended before I was born. Probably around 1995/96?

 

[Leyland Bus]

The timetable archive https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM030/n-ZhDdvm has the 34 amended to just to Leigh (with limited to Lowton) as of 19/6/1995.

In its final throes when run by First Manchester, wasn't it was peak hours only??

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In its final throes when run by First Manchester, wasn't it was peak hours only??

Unfortunately the 25/3/1996 "GM Buses North now First" and 8/7/1996 "Times are revised with one extra journey added" timetables are missing. All the others appear to show an hourly service between at least 07:00 and 17:00 (usually some more but they appear to come and go).

 

[johncrossley]

Are we? Okay then, yes, Stockport has a good train service, but from an inconveniently located station. People may well arrive by bus when undertaking occasional longer journeys, but I would be surprised if there are that many who transfer there as part of a regular commute to Manchester. My experience, both as a bus driver and as station retail staff, was that relatively few commuters at suburban stations arrived by bus, despite options for multi-mode tickets - given the limited train and bus services (by London standards) it would require either serial good luck or a lot of patience to do so. They mostly walked or drove, a few cycled (either leaving their bikes or taking them on the train) or got dropped off. Clearly the train services are not going to be increased in frequency due to lack of track capacity, so I can't see this pattern changing.

I assume that there is more transfer from buses onto Metrolink at Altrincham and Bury and perhaps Whitefield, whether there is much at East Didsbury or Chorlton I don't honestly know. It may be worthwhile depending on exact origin and destination for some, but I would think if people have a direct bus, they'd be likely to use it all the way.

As for "insanely frequent" buses, yes, the worst excesses of deregulation are hopefully past us now. But radial main roads inevitably branch, and those branches still require a passable level of service to be remotely attractive. Are you suggesting that there should not be direct buses from, say, Urmston into Manchester because at Stretford they join the A56 and duplicate buses from Altrincham into Manchester? Or indeed, they parallel Metrolink (or the electrified Altrincham line previously) for that stretch? I can well imagine my mother being impressed with the necessity of having to change at Stretford back when I was a child!

They've just rebuilt Stockport bus station at great cost, calling it an "Interchange" (not just because of a potential future Metrolink station) implying it is a suitable place for connection to the railway station. The development at the station is relatively new as well, so they have deliberately kept the bus and rail stations apart. Therefore it is entirely the fault of the authorities if the connection is not as good as it could be. Would this situation exist at a comparably important railway station in countries were integration is considered vitally important? I doubt it.

Stockport is however just one example. There are several tram stops in south Manchester with a frequency of at least every 12 minutes where frequent connecting buses could be introduced if they don't already exist. The earlier discussion was about East Didsbury and of course that has great potential for interchange as there are already several bus routes plus a tram every 6 minutes. In big cities with a 2+ million population it is normal for connections to be required as there are many millions of possible origin-destination pairs. You'd be hard pushed to find one with a culture of using direct buses only.

We've already discussed a branch already not having a passable service. Some of the routes which comprise the ultra-frequent service on corridors are only half hourly, which is really not much use. To get a frequent service on the infrequent branches will inevitably mean loss of direct service. Look at transport networks of other cities with a 2+ million population with high modal share for public transport. They tend not to have so many direct routes to the city centre on the same scale. The city centre is not the only place that people need to go to.

 

[markymark2000]

They've just rebuilt Stockport bus station at great cost, calling it an "Interchange" (not just because of a potential future Metrolink station) implying it is a suitable place for connection to the railway station. The development at the station is relatively new as well, so they have deliberately kept the bus and rail stations apart. Therefore it is entirely the fault of the authorities if the connection is not as good as it could be. Would this situation exist at a comparably important railway station in countries were integration is considered vitally important? I doubt it.

How would you build the interchange now? Bearing in mind you'd either need to move Stockport Train Station or knock down all of the offices and hotels near the station and move the bus station further out of town. Either one is stupidly expensive and would be of a huge disruption to people and businesses.

The new link path from the train station to the bus station is quite nice and I've used it a good number of times. It really makes the bus and train stations feel pretty close together.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They've just rebuilt Stockport bus station at great cost, calling it an "Interchange" (not just because of a potential future Metrolink station) implying it is a suitable place for connection to the railway station. The development at the station is relatively new as well, so they have deliberately kept the bus and rail stations apart. Therefore it is entirely the fault of the authorities if the connection is not as good as it could be. Would this situation exist at a comparably important railway station in countries were integration is considered vitally important? I doubt it.

Did you see the second half of my posting #1,425. There is a very large difference in the height of the area of the railway station and that of the bus station, which is situated in the river valley area. Have a look at the height of Stockport viaduct from the bus interchange.

Much of the land area near to the railway station has already been developed in recent times as part of the Stockport town-centre upgrading.

 

[markymark2000]

Did you see the second half of my posting #1,425. There is a very large difference in the height of the area of the railway station and that of the bus station, which is situated in the river valley area. Have a look at the height of Stockport viaduct from the bus interchange.

Build a sky scraper for offices and houses on top of the bus station and on then have the 23rd floor as a train station concourse. Get some high capacity lifts express lifts to get everyone down to the bus station level. I don't see what the issue is.....

 

[mangad]

They could have put the new interchange up next to the railway station, and built all the offices on the site of the old bus station, but then it would be taking the buses away from the shopping centre and making things less convenient for passengers. Anyway, for any buses that go down the A6 you can simply change between the bus and the train by using the Grand Central bus stop. A lot of major routes serve those stops so it's a good option.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They could have put the new interchange up next to the railway station, and built all the offices on the site of the old bus station, but then it would be taking the buses away from the shopping centre and making things less convenient for passengers. Anyway, for any buses that go down the A6 you can simply change between the bus and the train by using the Grand Central bus stop. A lot of major routes serve those stops so it's a good option.

Ask yourself how many people use the bus station and how many use the railway station on an average day. The bus station is ideal for the Merseyway shopping precinct and the main central town area.

 

[mangad]

Ask yourself how many people use the bus station and how many use the railway station on an average day. The bus station is ideal for the Merseyway shopping precinct and the main central town area.

Absolutely. Hop off the bus and you are into the shops within minutes. And whilst the walk to the railway station is not ideal, it's not that arduous now they have built the new link. There are interchanges between lines on the London Underground that are longer walks (Bank station, I am looking at you!)

 

[WibbleWobble]

In its final throes when run by First Manchester, wasn't it was peak hours only??

Yes, until it was relaunched as the X34 as an all day service - which was when the unholy mess of service changes in that area began.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Yes, until it was relaunched as the X34 as an all day service - which was when the unholy mess of service changes in that area began.

Strewth! I'd completely forgotten about that!!!

 

[Whisky Papa]

...
We've already discussed a branch already not having a passable service. Some of the routes which comprise the ultra-frequent service on corridors are only half hourly, which is really not much use. To get a frequent service on the infrequent branches will inevitably mean loss of direct service. Look at transport networks of other cities with a 2+ million population with high modal share for public transport. They tend not to have so many direct routes to the city centre on the same scale. The city centre is not the only place that people need to go to.

If I may home in on this paragraph? Members may not be aware that pre-deregulation, the Wilmslow Road corridor was served (almost) exclusively by a carefully intertimed branched network, each service running every 20 minutes during the day, and every 30 minutes at night? The outer termini were rather different to what you see today, say the 44 to the airport via Styal Road or 45 to Gatley, and the idea of high-frequency overlays in from East and West Didsbury was really limited to the 42/6 that from East Didsbury (and later Reddish) or Millgate Lane that contributed a 20 minute headway between them.
The 157 was on top of this pattern, and there were additions at peak times of course. Some of the outer sections were soon lost after deregulation, possibly justifiably so - the 44 really was quiet at the airport end!

And yes, I am very familiar with the transport network of at least one continental city with a population of around 1.4 million, as my previous posts indicate. I have seen it quoted that 70% of Prague's population use public transport daily - no idea how that was calculated or indeed exactly where I saw it now. Trust me, their system is not perfect by any stretch, even if it is still very cheap, even by local standards. But there is little comparison with Manchester in terms of the way the city has developed and population distributed. And Metrolink is still basically a light railway serving stops at railway spacings, not a 'street' tramway along major arteries (largely on segregated tracks of course) with stops frequent enough that parallel bus services are no longer required.

 

[py_megapixel]

Absolutely. Hop off the bus and you are into the shops within minutes. And whilst the walk to the railway station is not ideal, it's not that arduous now they have built the new link.

The old path from the bus station to the train station was grim - narrow, poorly lit, lots of stairs, no good way to cross the Exchange Street / Daw Bank junction and no proper pedestrian access to the bus station. The new lifts and footbridge and rebuilt pathway are gamechanging.

It could be further improved, firstly by fixing whatever about the lifts makes them so unreliable (most of the time one or the other seems to be out of service - I hope they are pursuing the manufacturer / their maintenance contractors to improve this) and secondly by taking over part of the small NCP carpark on the northern side of Station Road to built a shortcut directly to the station.