Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[158756]

The latest round of timetable changes are up on TfGM's website.

The 607 (Wigan-Bolton) has the frequency increased from every 20 to 15 minutes. Also improvements to evening services on the 608 and 610.

A third new route for the Bee Network is introduced. The 629 will run 7 times a day (Mon-Sat) between Golborne and Platt Bridge, along the route of the 360. This is a bit of a head scratcher - is there really much demand for local off peak travel on this section of the 360 specifically? Costs are obviously minimised by using a bus between school runs, but it still seems a bit odd.

 

[Andyh82]

I’m sure we were supposed to be having full network reviews when operations bedded in, but all we’ve got is trivial little services being added in the Wigan area, often with next to no additional resource worked around other operations. Surely Tranche 1 has been Bee Network long enough now?

 

[neilcobbe]

The latest round of timetable changes are up on TfGM's website.

The 607 (Wigan-Bolton) has the frequency increased from every 20 to 15 minutes. Also improvements to evening services on the 608 and 610.

A third new route for the Bee Network is introduced. The 629 will run 7 times a day (Mon-Sat) between Golborne and Platt Bridge, along the route of the 360. This is a bit of a head scratcher - is there really much demand for local off peak travel on this section of the 360 specifically? Costs are obviously minimised by using a bus between school runs, but it still seems a bit odd.

The Arriva 360 used to be every 30 mins pre-covid but I believe a lack of drivers at St. Helens meant it became every 40 mins then cut again to the present hourly service. Abram is quite a large place and when I drive down there are always lots of people waiting for the 360. Just a pity it doesn't run through to Wigan, the plan being that you need to use a hopper ticket and then get a 609 in Platt Bridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just a pity it doesn't run through to Wigan, the plan being that you need to use a hopper ticket and then get a 609 in Platt Bridge.

In the same context, is Ashton-in-Makerfield seen as a hub point for changing buses of different routes?

 

[JasonL]

So apparently it's been confirmed that Stagecoach Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside are going to merge together from 1st of December 2025 and South Lancashire joining up with North Lancashire and Cumbria. I wonder if we'll see some new routes such as a Manchester to Liverpool route?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So apparently it's been confirmed that Stagecoach Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside are going to merge together from 1st of December 2025 and South Lancashire joining up with North Lancashire and Cumbria. I wonder if we'll see some new routes such as a Manchester to Liverpool route?

I wonder what the two merged companies will then be known as.

 

[JasonL]

I wonder what the two merged companies will then be known as.

Stagecoach Merseyside and Manchester or vice versa

 

[Andyh82]

So apparently it's been confirmed that Stagecoach Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside are going to merge together from 1st of December 2025 and South Lancashire joining up with North Lancashire and Cumbria. I wonder if we'll see some new routes such as a Manchester to Liverpool route?

If they wanted to run such a route, they could have introduced it at any time over the last many decades

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they wanted to run such a route, they could have introduced it at any time over the last many decades

Very, very many years ago, I remember the number 34 service from Manchester to Liverpool ran from what was then the underground bus station at the Manchester Arndale Centre.

 

[JasonL]

If they wanted to run such a route, they could have introduced it at any time over the last many decades

They could reintroduce the route but the current 34 is operated by Arriva Merseyside which only runs from St. Helens to Leigh. It would depend on who will win the contract to operate at the St. Helens garage

 

[aron2smith]

What a mess where the 360 and 629 serves! Depending on the time of day, 3 different routes ran by 3 different companies as Warrington 22a runs the last 4 journeys of the day. Surely at least within GM, they accept the Bee Network tickets. The leaflet doesn't make it clear for anyone who needs to use it. The 629 appears to terminate near the boundary. I really don't want to see Manchester making the same mistakes as London has on the edge of the bus network.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/68iqDNu7ApXnBvAM0cf8r7/9e466e25f2f905ef9798375310f92ce0/22A__360_Wigan__629_25-SC-0293_amended.pdf

 

[Cavendish1]

Very, very many years ago, I remember the number 34 service from Manchester to Liverpool ran from what was then the underground bus station at the Manchester Arndale Centre.

The 34 was initially meant to be an express version of the 39, Liverpool to Manchester, run by Lancashire United from Atherton depot. Some interesting vehicles appeared over the years!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 34 was initially meant to be an express version of the 39, Liverpool to Manchester, run by Lancashire United from Atherton depot. Some interesting vehicles appeared over the years!

Was the 39 the one that left from the street that went underneath the arches opposite Salford Victoria bus station in the 1960s?

 

[markymark2000]

What a mess where the 360 and 629 serves! Depending on the time of day, 3 different routes ran by 3 different companies as Warrington 22a runs the last 4 journeys of the day. Surely at least within GM, they accept the Bee Network tickets. The leaflet doesn't make it clear for anyone who needs to use it.

Given the 22A is funded, and was literally only created out of operational convenience for Warringtons Own Buses (merging the evening 360 with their existing evening 22s), I am rather surprised that TFGM hasn't pulled the plug here and instead tried to get an evening 360 back under Bee Network or provide it as deminims support to Arriva.

The 629 appears to terminate near the boundary. I really don't want to see Manchester making the same mistakes as London has on the edge of the bus network.

The 629 could extent to Newton Le Willows but it would lead to a more uneven timetable rather than it being roughly combined every 30 minutes. I think the issue is, Newton has always been the rail hub for Golborne and so the links to Newton were important, however with TFGM building Golborne station, they have less and less need to care about running to Newton Le Willows sadly. And that isn't just a shame because of the different train links offered by Newton versus what Golborne will have (Ie links to Chester & North Wales, Leeds, Liverpool), but it's also a key interchange point between cross border buses. A Waltham Cross if you will.

 

[Cavendish1]

Was the 39 the one that left from the street that went underneath the arches opposite Salford Victoria bus station in the 1960s?

It did indeed, along with the long gone 32 Wigan - Manchester

 

[Dwarfer1979]

So apparently it's been confirmed that Stagecoach Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside are going to merge together from 1st of December 2025 and South Lancashire joining up with North Lancashire and Cumbria. I wonder if we'll see some new routes such as a Manchester to Liverpool route?

Unlikely, this is probably down to franchising. Manchester & Merseyside are, or will be, franchised so it makes sense that they are under the same management dealing with the same structure whilst Lancashire is deregulated so it makes sense to group that with similar areas further north and not mix them with a franchised business with different management priorities and skills needed.

 

[markymark2000]

Unlikely, this is probably down to franchising. Manchester & Merseyside are, or will be, franchised so it makes sense that they are under the same management dealing with the same structure whilst Lancashire is deregulated so it makes sense to group that with similar areas further north and not mix them with a franchised business with different management priorities and skills needed.

You are spot on. It's fully to do with franchising (I've seen the internal Comms for it)

 

[Tetchytyke]

What a mess where the 360 and 629 serves! Depending on the time of day, 3 different routes ran by 3 different companies as Warrington 22a runs the last 4 journeys of the day. Surely at least within GM, they accept the Bee Network tickets.

The 360 operates commercially, the 22A is the supported service which runs evenings and Sundays with support from Warrington Borough Council and TfGM, and the 629 is coming in to fill gaps on part of the route (and the 629 does seem a bit of a head-scratcher). It may well neaten up if/when franchising in Merseyside happens, as the 360 is operated by Arriva from St Helens.

All accept the BeeBus ticket within Greater Manchester.

 

[Andyh82]

You are spot on. It's fully to do with franchising (I've seen the internal Comms for it)

Are they actually going to be the ‘same company’ or just the same management structure?

For example the same management run most of First on the south/south west, but it’s still 3 companies

 

[Cavendish1]

The 360 operates commercially, the 22A is the supported service which runs evenings and Sundays with support from Warrington Borough Council and TfGM, and the 629 is coming in to fill gaps on part of the route (and the 629 does seem a bit of a head-scratcher). It may well neaten up if/when franchising in Merseyside happens, as the 360 is operated by Arriva from St Helens.

All accept the BeeBus ticket within Greater Manchester.

Showing my age, but sometimes things come full circle. I remember when the then 660 (and 661 Wigan to Earlestown) used to happily operate alongside the Abram to Wigan route by Wigan depot (Route number escapes me)

 

[johncrossley]

(and the 629 does seem a bit of a head-scratcher)

It seems pretty sensible to me as there are already lots of buses between Platt Bridge and Wigan. This wouldn't be possible (or at least it would be less likely) in the old days when you used to pay extra to change buses.

 

[neilcobbe]

It seems pretty sensible to me as there are already lots of buses between Platt Bridge and Wigan. This wouldn't be possible (or at least it would be less likely) in the old days when you used to pay extra to change buses.

The issue is you can only transfer to a Bee Network bus... You can't get on a 320 in Platt Bridge if that comes first. I think this will put through passengers off, they'll just get a direct Arriva 360 for convenience.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It seems pretty sensible to me as there are already lots of buses between Platt Bridge and Wigan. This wouldn't be possible (or at least it would be less likely) in the old days when you used to pay extra to change buses.

True, although by the time you've changed buses at Platt Bridge you're probably not going to save much time compared to waiting for the next 360.

Feels like they're trying to occupy a bus between school times to me.

 

[johncrossley]

The issue is you can only transfer to a Bee Network bus... You can't get on a 320 in Platt Bridge if that comes first. I think this will put through passengers off, they'll just get a direct Arriva 360 for convenience.

Arriva 360 already exists so this gives passengers another option if they don't want to wait another half hour. Of course, some people may not want to go to Wigan or want to change on other routes at Platt Bridge. However, you have a point about not being able to change onto non-Bee Network buses for free. They need to sort that out.

 

[Tim33160]

I wonder what the two merged companies will then be known as.

What will happen to the "Ribble" fleetname - will it go back to Preston / Chorley and Stagecoach Cumbria?

What happens on the Wirral and other depots?. Will this just be Gilmoss depot to be a base for franchising joining Manchester?

 

[geoffk]

But the exact configuration we've been left with is very much a legacy one and could really do with a rethink, the slowness of the TFGM review process has been moderately disappointing.

TfGM has cut the payroll since I worked there 20 years ago and perhaps they are finding it difficult to recruit suitable staff to undertake network planning, even if the money to do so is available.

 

[Megafuss]

TfGM has cut the payroll since I worked there 20 years ago and perhaps they are finding it difficult to recruit suitable staff to undertake network planning, even if the money to do so is available.

I'd be very surprised if there is not already a list of "trouble" routes/areas they will be looking at behind the scenes. Or at least on "the list" to look at when the appropriate time comes.

But they are clearly focusing on getting what they've Inherited right, plus making "quick" wins where appropriate. Such as the operating hour enhancements when franchising started.

This is the right path in the long term as they don't want to upset thousands of current users from the off.

 

[Statto]

Arriva 360 already exists so this gives passengers another option if they don't want to wait another half hour. Of course, some people may not want to go to Wigan or want to change on other routes at Platt Bridge. However, you have a point about not being able to change onto non-Bee Network buses for free. They need to sort that out.

That maybe, but the 360 is not a Bee Network route either, the 360 is in the same mold as the 320, as the 360 is operated by Arriva St Helens depot.

 

[johncrossley]

That maybe, but the 360 is not a Bee Network route either, the 360 is in the same mold as the 320, as the 360 is operated by Arriva St Helens depot.

Most people can use the 360 and the 629 interchangeably, as the 360 has to accept most Bee Network tickets within the area. Someone who has a day or longer ticket issued on paper or smartcard can travel from Golborne to Wigan on either the 360 or on a combination of the 629 and any bus between Platt Bridge and Wigan, including Arriva services. Arriva don't accept the Hopper ticket or Bee Network tap and cap so passengers currently using the 360 already won't be using those tickets. However, travellers who normally pay a £2 single on the 360 will be able to access a £2 single on a combination of the 629 and the 609.

 

[Pinus contorta]

What a mess where the 360 and 629 serves! Depending on the time of day, 3 different routes ran by 3 different companies as Warrington 22a runs the last 4 journeys of the day. Surely at least within GM, they accept the Bee Network tickets. The leaflet doesn't make it clear for anyone who needs to use it. The 629 appears to terminate near the boundary. I really don't want to see Manchester making the same mistakes as London has on the edge of the bus network.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/68iqDNu7ApXnBvAM0cf8r7/9e466e25f2f905ef9798375310f92ce0/22A__360_Wigan__629_25-SC-0293_amended.pdf

I had a ride out on the 360 one morning in February from Wigan to Newton ( to get eventualiy to Earlestown) it was busy between Platt Bridge and Newton. I hope this isnt the first move towards the dreaded split of the service 360 when the franchising rolls out in St. Helens.