Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[158756]

Best measurement would be per head of population against other metropolitan counties comparing pre-pandemic figures. GM is leading the way. You won't find this mentioned on the bought out bus articles.

GM:
67.2 (2019) > 62.5 (2024) -7.0%
WY:
61.9 (2019) > 49.7 (2024) -20%
SY:
66.8 (2019) > 46.8 (2024) -30%
WM:
91.1 (2019) > 79.2 (2024) -13%
Merseyside:
72.3 (2019) > 60.9 (2024) -16%
Tyne & Wear:
99.7 (2019) > 71.4 (2024) -28%

Official DfT figures for bus passenger journeys (admittedly not per capita) are:
GM: 189.7 (2019), 146.5 (2023), 163.5 (2024)
Total metropolitan counties: 904, 684. 755.
So the declines 2019 to 2023 (pre-franchising) are 33% for GM and 34% for the total. In 2024 (partial franchising etc) there is a recovery, with the overall reduction compared to 2019 becoming 14% for GM and 16% for the total. So no clear sign that the early stages of franchising had anything other than a very small / no impact. I don’t know why our results are so different…….population can’t have changed much.

The government's bus statistics data tables per capita put GM at 55.5 in 2024, a drop of 17%. Which makes a lot more sense with the total journey numbers.

 

[Cavendish1]

If the wrong forum, then apologies. I just wondered if any routes still experience "grouping", as they seem to do in Ashton. Just came back on a 219 from town, and by Guide Bridge there were 3 of us in a row, along with a 4th running empty from town. I make that 30 mins worth of buses in 30 seconds? Slightly separate issue, but dont understand the Metroline practise of running empty from Ashton to Piccadilly to take up service, seems a waste of driving time?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the wrong forum, then apologies. I just wondered if any routes still experience "grouping", as they seem to do in Ashton. Just came back on a 219 from town, and by Guide Bridge there were 3 of us in a row, along with a 4th running empty from town. I make that 30 mins worth of buses in 30 seconds?

The vaguely-worded aspirations of how the Bee Network would be the "Bee" All and End All of how bus service operations should run that were often put forward in the early days of the Bee Network by "certain well-known people" are similar to statues with feet of clay.

 

[M60lad]

219 has always even back to Stagecoach days of Buses running together, even yesterday I was on a 219 yesterday morning and by the time we had got to Openshaw we had caught the bus in front of us up.

As for other routes that suffer the same problem of grouping quite a number to be honest in/around Greater Manchester, 582 Bolton-Leigh is another well known one for grouping at some points during the day.

 

[mangad]

Years ago I saw an excellent graphic representation of why bus bunching happens. The website isn't very mobile friendly but all it takes is one bus to be a little delayed and it can happen. I once saw three buses in a row in my town, on a bus route with a 20 minute frequency. Annoying, yes, but it's often external factors that cause these things. London is a franchised system and has bus bunching. Franchising is certainly not the solution to that problem.

 

[mayneway]

If the wrong forum, then apologies. I just wondered if any routes still experience "grouping", as they seem to do in Ashton. Just came back on a 219 from town, and by Guide Bridge there were 3 of us in a row, along with a 4th running empty from town. I make that 30 mins worth of buses in 30 seconds? Slightly separate issue, but dont understand the Metroline practise of running empty from Ashton to Piccadilly to take up service, seems a waste of driving time?

All frequent routes can be subject to bunching. 135, 192, 216 can all suffer but in regards to the 219 yesterday one of the big issues was Tameside council deciding to close the junction of Chester Square and Stockport road while they painted a pedestrian crossing red. It meant all 219’s and 347’s had to use the 216 route then turn left up Moss way. With the traffic queuing to get into the snipe retail park it was adding 15-20 minutes onto journeys. Then you’ve got the Man City traffic, the event at the Warehouse project off Fairfield street and then the chaos around Piccadilly station with the taxis blocking everything up.
In terms of running a bus dead to Piccadilly, it can normally be done in less that 30 mins if the bus isn’t constantly starting and stopping, plus they are not always sent dead ti Piccadilly, they normally pick up at one of the timing points towards town.

It’s a difficult route to regulate as there’s limited places to turn round.
Hyde road actually ended up picking up a couple of journeys from town yesterday afternoon as it was so bad.

 

[py_megapixel]

All frequent routes can be subject to bunching. 135, 192, 216 can all suffer

192 is so frequent north of Stockport that bunching is basically impossible to avoid. With buses every 3 minutes it only takes some bad luck with traffic lights, or maybe one or two passengers taking a while to dig out change for the one behind to catch up. It's a similar story north of Withington on the Wilmslow Road corridor.

Hyde road actually ended up picking up a couple of journeys from town yesterday afternoon as it was so bad.

Hyde Road drivers, or Hyde Road buses? I'd have assumed Hyde Road drivers didn't have the route knowledge for the 219.

 

[mayneway]

Hyde Road drivers, or Hyde Road buses? I'd have assumed Hyde Road drivers didn't have the route knowledge for the 219.

Hyde road driver and buses. I’m assuming buses/drivers were taken off other frequent services and asked to do a 219 to clear the passengers in town.
Hyde road operated journeys on the 219 until a few years ago so the majority of drivers will know it.
When a colleague of mine went to Hyde road about 18 months ago he was route trained the 216/219 even though he was based at Hyde road so the same may still happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On Saturdays, why are there only 3bph on the service 368 Stockport Interchange-Edgeley-Cheadle Hulme-Heald Green-Wythenshawe Interchange?

 

[py_megapixel]

Hyde road driver and buses. I’m assuming buses/drivers were taken off other frequent services and asked to do a 219 to clear the passengers in town.

I've looked at bustimes and it looks like they might have been taken off the 38, which makes sense given the equally frequent 36 and 37 do the job fine for the vast majority of passengers. Seems to be a decent bit of decision-making from Metroline and/or TfGM there.

Hyde road operated journeys on the 219 until a few years ago so the majority of drivers will know it.
When a colleague of mine went to Hyde road about 18 months ago he was route trained the 216/219 even though he was based at Hyde road so the same may still happen.

I see, that makes sense.

On Saturdays, why are there only 3bph on the service 368 Stockport Interchange-Edgeley-Cheadle Hulme-Heald Green-Wythenshawe Interchange?

I don't know the precise logic behind it, but I do know a lot of the traffic on the 368 comes from educational establishments, as well as workers at the large office and industrial complex in the Bird Hall Lane area, so I would expect passenger numbers to be lower on Saturday.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know the precise logic behind it, but I do know a lot of the traffic on the 368 comes from educational establishments, as well as workers at the large office and industrial complex in the Bird Hall Lane area, so I would expect passenger numbers to be lower on Saturday.

But Saturday is a day when people of all ages can go out to many places that offer many different options, family groups in particular.

 

[Cavendish1]

Hyde Road did indeed do Sunday and a few early morning 219s up until January. Shame i missed one, please dont tell me a B9 turned up?

 

[py_megapixel]

Hyde Road did indeed do Sunday and a few early morning 219s up until January. Shame i missed one, please dont tell me a B9 turned up?

Looking at Bustimes it was two Streetdecks and a hybrid Enviro 400

 

[Cavendish1]

Looking at Bustimes it was two Streetdecks and a hybrid Enviro 400

Thanks for that

 

[M60lad]

Regarding 219si this has got me thinking since Bee Network are there any routes that are operated by more than one Depot? I know in the past former MagicBus routes 142/143 were operated out of both Hyde Road and Sharston Depots and is this still the case or do Hyde Road just operate 142 with Sharston operating 143s?

 

[Tim33160]

Regarding 219si this has got me thinking since Bee Network are there any routes that are operated by more than one Depot? I know in the past former MagicBus routes 142/143 were operated out of both Hyde Road and Sharston Depots and is this still the case or do Hyde Road just operate 142 with Sharston operating 143s?

Metroline operate the ex Magicbus 142 143 147 routes: 142 147 from Hyde Rd; 143 from Sharston;

Stagecoach operate all 192 buses from Stockport depot

During the latter days of the recent strike; Metroline drivers ran a skeleton 143 all operated from Hyde Rd

Generally, routes are only operated from one depot in the Bee Network franchise. On occasion, additional buses from other depots have run on individual routes suffering problems

 

[Bletchleyite]

Metroline operate the ex Magicbus 142 143 147 routes: 142 147 from Hyde Rd; 143 from Sharston;

It continues to surprise me that the 14x routes have remained given that they are just short workings of the 42/43 (and probably 47, I don't know that one). Or was the principle not to change any routes at tendering and just tweak later, so they may disappear at the next retender?

 

[mangad]

It continues to surprise me that the 14x routes have remained given that they are just short workings of the 42/43 (and probably 47, I don't know that one). Or was the principle not to change any routes at tendering and just tweak later, so they may disappear at the next retender?

They're doing network reviews of the services. There's scant information on the TfGM website but they were starting with the Tranche 1 franchises. Tranche 3 routes will be a while yet.

 

[py_megapixel]

It continues to surprise me that the 14x routes have remained given that they are just short workings of the 42/43 (and probably 47, I don't know that one). Or was the principle not to change any routes at tendering and just tweak later, so they may disappear at the next retender?

There isn't a 47 to my knowledge. The 147 is a Mon-Fri only variant of the 143 that terminates at Piccadilly station instead of Piccadilly Gardens. Its primary purpose was connecting the various bits of the University of Manchester together (and to rail services), although now the north campus is almost entirely abandoned I imagine it's not as well used as it used to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't a 47 to my knowledge. The 147 is a Mon-Fri only variant of the 143 that terminates at Piccadilly station instead of Piccadilly Gardens. Its primary purpose was connecting the various bits of the University of Manchester together (and to rail services), although now the north campus is almost entirely abandoned I imagine it's not as well used as it used to be.

I think there may have been a 47 in the past, but I could well be thinking of the 157 which was typically an R. Bullock operation and they liked to be different

I think the one you mention used to be a standalone Manchester Royal Infirmary-Uni-UMIST-Piccadilly shuttle, didn't it?

But anyway, the core point stands - 142 is just a short working on the 42, 143 a short working on the 43, there's no justification in different numbers, southbound the destination tells you that and northbound it's irrelevant.

 

[Andyh82]

Combining the 43 and 143 into one service would result in a messy timetable

The 43 is a clean every 10 mins frequency end to end. The 143 is at different frequencies at different times of day, different days of the week, semester and holidays also being different.

 

[Tim33160]

There isn't a 47 to my knowledge. The 147 is a Mon-Fri only variant of the 143 that terminates at Piccadilly station instead of Piccadilly Gardens. Its primary purpose was connecting the various bits of the University of Manchester together (and to rail services), although now the north campus is almost entirely abandoned I imagine it's not as well used as it used to be.

Service 147 Manchester Piccadilly Station - University of Manchester - Manchester Royal Infirmary - Rusholme - Fallowfield - Withington - West Didsbury was originally funded by Uni and MRI and run by Bullocks.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RxvtvKwodsSsXpOdWl7crRzBskizQNj-/view

Current Timetable
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...792b5a9974a0bd9923edf9d204/147_25-SC-0240.pdf

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

Combining the 43 and 143 into one service would result in a messy timetable

The 43 is a clean every 10 mins frequency end to end. The 143 is at different frequencies at different times of day, different days of the week, semester and holidays also being different.

Both 43 and 143 are quoted as being in the top ten of route patronage of Bee Network routes
The 143 is really a short working of 43 - as is 142 for the 42

Magic Buses were added as a low cost unit of Stagecoach in the bad old days days of competition - there was 15 operators on the 42 in the 90's
Magic Buses had cheaper fares to capture the Student market - especially with term time Mega Rider tickets

 

[markymark2000]

Combining the 43 and 143 into one service would result in a messy timetable

The 43 is a clean every 10 mins frequency end to end. The 143 is at different frequencies at different times of day, different days of the week, semester and holidays also being different.

I think it would still work when you take into account that the 143 is also operated by Sharston depot, and buses now run back to the depot for their break, so for negligible difference to resources, you could actually run every 5 minutes from Northenden to Manchester. Then any extras beyond that which are actually needed, could run unadvertised to the public as dupes. Bearing in mind that now with no MagicRider or operator specific tickets, there is no reason why students aren't using any other normal service too like the 41.

But anyway, the core point stands - 142 is just a short working on the 42, 143 a short working on the 43, there's no justification in different numbers, southbound the destination tells you that and northbound it's irrelevant.

The 42 is even more messed up, because there are short 42 which just run Piccadilly to East Didsbury, as well as the 142, and some of these follow eachother. Weekdays from Piccadilly, there is an 18:49 142, and then a minute later at 18:50 there is 42 which terminates at Parrs Wood and they run 1 minute apart from eachother for the entire route. Similarly on Saturdays, 06:39 the 142 leaves Parrs Wood to Piccadilly, then at 06:40 a 42 leaves, starting from Parrs Wood, to Piccadilly. Are there really 140+ passengers wishing to travel on buses leaving Parrs Wood at 06:40? Because I can't see that somehow. Of course the closer you get into Piccadilly, the more other buses you have joining you. It's a complete waste of resources. A fuller 42 timetable to replace the 142, alongside reviewing the 42A/B/C routes to see if there is a way for these routes to operate better by not running through to the Wilmslow Road corridor (unless there is significant demand 'cross' East Didsbury, but there isn't in my experiences.

I also wonder if there is anything we can find out about the travel patterns which could make boosting other routes more attractive, or any links missing perhaps? For example would a 10 minutes 41 be beneficial between Shudehill and West Didsbury and run some extra shorts there rather than so many 142/143s? Gets people to other parts of the city rather than just Picc gardens.

 

[Parebunks]

I also wonder if there is anything we can find out about the travel patterns which could make boosting other routes more attractive, or any links missing perhaps? For example would a 10 minutes 41 be beneficial between Shudehill and West Didsbury and run some extra shorts there rather than so many 142/143s? Gets people to other parts of the city rather than just Picc gardens.

I would certainly hope to see something along these lines in any network review, from my experience the core demand is Withington to the university, and I do doubt that quite so many university-Picc Gardens buses are needed. Perhaps alongside that Shudehill suggestion the 147 could be boosted into a more frequent week-round service, and the 142 could divert after the university to replace the 53 at least some of the way towards Salford.

On the general point I think there is some merit in the Didsbury shorts being clearly differentiated from full-route runs, but the 14x format is quite confusing. Obvious to me would be 42D and 43D, both for Didsbury and following on from 42C.

 

[ian1944]

To answer a query above, historically 47/48 were MCTD services between Altrincham and Manchester, one to Piccadilly BS and one to St Mary's Gate at the top of Deansgate (I think the blind showed EXCHANGE). All buses (41xx Daimlers) were garaged at Princess Road, which operated all of the Old Trafford - Stretford - Urmston services too in partnership with NWRC, but none of the Wythenshawe ones which ran past the door. After a partial rationalisation which put all of the 4x routes along Wilmslow Road, 47/48 became 263/264.

 

[WibbleWobble]

In more recent years, the 47 was one direction of the south Manchester circular (the other being the 46). It was gradually whittled down then withdrawn as it's uniqueness became less and less useful as it's city centre route was cut back from Victoria to Albert Square which put it out on a limb away from the main shopping area and bus interchanges.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Obvious to me would be 42D and 43D, both for Didsbury and following on from 42C.

It's bad enough with the 42A/42B/42C that we have already which go to widely different termini without adding to the problem...

 

[TheSmiths82]

I think the Wilmslow Road services do need looking at, the current timetable is purely a legacy of privatisation and the 4 or 5 different bus companies that used to run services down there (Stagecoach, Finglands, R Bullocks, UK North etc). As Fallowfield is getting less and less students I am not sure the demand is the same as it was, but it has been years since I have got a bus down Wilmslow Road.

 

[Parebunks]

I think the Wilmslow Road services do need looking at, the current timetable is purely a legacy of privatisation and the 4 or 5 different bus companies that used to run services down there (Stagecoach, Finglands, R Bullocks, UK North etc). As Fallowfield is getting less and less students I am not sure the demand is the same as it was, but it has been years since I have got a bus down Wilmslow Road.

Wouldn't say that, I was waiting at the Infirmary going southbound today and four full buses went past before I could get on one! Despite reduced university-owned accomodation in Fallowfield many students do still end up living that way in second and third years.
But the exact configuration we've been left with is very much a legacy one and could really do with a rethink, the slowness of the TFGM review process has been moderately disappointing.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Wouldn't say that, I was waiting at the Infirmary going southbound today and four full buses went past before I could get on one! Despite reduced university-owned accomodation in Fallowfield many students do still end up living that way in second and third years.
But the exact configuration we've been left with is very much a legacy one and could really do with a rethink, the slowness of the TFGM review process has been moderately disappointing.

I suppose also although the student population of that area is declining the population in general isn't. It really needs a proper underground, like Stockport Road does though. Despite being very few minutes the 192 is often standing only around Stockport.